Alistair is extremely close to being a Mary Sue now.
Dragon blood, mother is a ex warden who cured her taint and was leader oft he mages, a grey warden, has templar powers, is possible king...
Jesus christ, there are fan fics better then this. Extremely disappointed.
My dislike for this is really more about adding yet another absurdity to Fiona's list of absurdities than it is about Alistair, who is basically a failure the Warden has to (potentially) succeed in place of.
Fiona, on the other hand, is just a bit too magical special awesome snowflake for my tastes. An elf mage slave with included traumatic experience (because being an elf, slave, and mage wasn't sad enough, apparently), who murders her master and isn't immediately executed in spite of living in a world where elves, mages, and slaves are often killed for no reason at all. She then goes on to be a Grey Warden who hangs out with the Mentor before he was the Mentor, the King of the Land and the Hero of the Land when they were still awesome adventurers. And not only does she hang out with them, but they think she is the most awesome Grey Warden Mage that ever Grey Warden Maged in the history of Grey Warden Maging. And on their adventure, they basically do all the Architect parts of Awakening before it is cool, because the Warden Commander can suck it. Oh! Oh! And in spite of hating each other and having zero in common (plus traumatic past!) she bangs the King. Because reasons on her part and because Maric can't go too long without sexing someone not named Rowan or he loses his superpowers. And then she goes and hangs out with the First Warden. Oh, and has a kid. With the King.
But wait! There's more!
Now that we've established that she is the most awesome Warden ever, she's cured of the Taint because that crap was just holding her back. Now she joins the Circle and everyone loves her, and because she is the most admirable and awesome mage ever, they promote her to the highest position possible, you know, in spite of other Mages who have lived their entire lives in the Circle probably having more in common with their fellow Circle Mages. Because everyone loves her. And, of course, she is just the bestest Grand Enchanter.
But wait! There's more!
In spite of the Circle being an evil slave prison of evilness where evil Templars evilly control every facet of mage lives(with evil), including which mages get to wear the fancy mage leadership hats, she manages to get the whole Mage Leadership together and hold a democratic vote to tell the evil Templars to go away. AND IT FAILS! THE TRAGEDY! So, because the evil Templars are evil and control every facet of mage life, including which mages get to wear the fancy mage leadership hats, she is immediately removed from office and killed, because this mage freedom business is Not Acceptable.
Oh, wait, no. This is Fiona, so that last bit doesn't happen. The evil Templars just let her keep doing her thing, because Fiona. And to the surprise of no one, and because way back when she got de-Tainted she decided she was going to be Mage Moses, she does it again! And wins! And despite being in a tower full of evil Templars created and trained for the sole purpose of putting mages down, they all escape and yay.
The End.
Oh, wait, no. That kid she had with the King goes on and hangs out with another Warden who does some cool stuff like Fiona (but she totally did some of it first, and cooler). And her son, and Marric's, rest his not yet dead soul, goes on to (maybe) become King.
NOW The End (until Inquisition. Maybe.)
Honestly, you could distribute Fiona's accomplishments to three characters and not a one of them would have reason to feel lacking in the presence of the Warden who united a nation and saved the world.
Only with a bit more emphasis on how horrible the "romance" plot between her and Maric was.
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
My dislike for this is really more about adding yet another absurdity to Fiona's list of absurdities than it is about Alistair, who is basically a failure the Warden has to (potentially) succeed in place of.
Fiona, on the other hand, is just a bit too magical special awesome snowflake for my tastes. An elf mage slave with included traumatic experience (because being an elf, slave, and mage wasn't sad enough, apparently), who murders her master and isn't immediately executed in spite of living in a world where elves, mages, and slaves are often killed for no reason at all. She then goes on to be a Grey Warden who hangs out with the Mentor before he was the Mentor, the King of the Land and the Hero of the Land when they were still awesome adventurers. And not only does she hang out with them, but they think she is the most awesome Grey Warden Mage that ever Grey Warden Maged in the history of Grey Warden Maging. And on their adventure, they basically do all the Architect parts of Awakening before it is cool, because the Warden Commander can suck it. Oh! Oh! And in spite of hating each other and having zero in common (plus traumatic past!) she bangs the King. Because reasons on her part and because Maric can't go too long without sexing someone not named Rowan or he loses his superpowers. And then she goes and hangs out with the First Warden. Oh, and has a kid. With the King.
But wait! There's more!
Now that we've established that she is the most awesome Warden ever, she's cured of the Taint because that crap was just holding her back. Now she joins the Circle and everyone loves her, and because she is the most admirable and awesome mage ever, they promote her to the highest position possible, you know, in spite of other Mages who have lived their entire lives in the Circle probably having more in common with their fellow Circle Mages. Because everyone loves her. And, of course, she is just the bestest Grand Enchanter.
But wait! There's more!
In spite of the Circle being an evil slave prison of evilness where evil Templars evilly control every facet of mage lives(with evil), including which mages get to wear the fancy mage leadership hats, she manages to get the whole Mage Leadership together and hold a democratic vote to tell the evil Templars to go away. AND IT FAILS! THE TRAGEDY! So, because the evil Templars are evil and control every facet of mage life, including which mages get to wear the fancy mage leadership hats, she is immediately removed from office and killed, because this mage freedom business is Not Acceptable.
Oh, wait, no. This is Fiona, so that last bit doesn't happen. The evil Templars just let her keep doing her thing, because Fiona. And to the surprise of no one, and because way back when she got de-Tainted she decided she was going to be Mage Moses, she does it again! And wins! And despite being in a tower full of evil Templars created and trained for the sole purpose of putting mages down, they all escape and yay.
The End.
Oh, wait, no. That kid she had with the King goes on and hangs out with another Warden who does some cool stuff like Fiona (but she totally did some of it first, and cooler). And her son, and Marric's, rest his not yet dead soul, goes on to (maybe) become King.
NOW The End (until Inquisition. Maybe.)
Honestly, you could distribute Fiona's accomplishments to three characters and not a one of them would have reason to feel lacking in the presence of the Warden who united a nation and saved the world.
You have the allegiance of the Bat Family. Let me know if you need help fighting crime. I'll let you borrow my hardware that doesn't have -mobile or -plane after it.
And everyone loves them for it. "Mary Sues" are always right, do everything right, easily and effortlessly excel at everything they try, get fawned over and praised as the best at whatever by everyone around them (except bad guys who're just evil and jealous of them), the plot immediately derails to be about them the moment they walk into the room, characters who encounter them even casually are immediately drawn to or fascinated by them, they're the center of every conversation of every character whether they're around or not, they get praised as "special" and "unusual" by everyone around them, get way more "unusual" traits that are considered desirable in their world they should realistically have to make them seem more "amazing," "awesome" and "special" and way better than piddling normal people, get praised as the most wonderful, giving, caring, moral person ever even when they act like complete jerks, etc.
The few characters that are depicted as not instantly, completely adoring them are still often portrayed as having nothing better to do than obsess about them, rarely have any humanity or redeemable qualities and are just cruel jerks, "just don't understand" how awesome the Sue is, and don't really have any legitimate grievances against them. The nay-sayers of the Sue will just be treated as being objectively wrong by everyone else, hated by everyone else for daring to speak or act against Sue, and most often turn out to just be jealous of them anyway. (*cough*HowetotheCouslands*cough*)
Does that sound like Alistair to anyone?
Nope.
Alistair of House Theirin, First of his name is the Dovahkiin, King of the Andals, the one who will bring balance to the Force, the Keyblade Master, Champion of Just, Hero of Neverwinter, Ace Detective, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, Clown Prince of Comedy, Stormborn, the Unburnt, Father of Dragons and Protector of the Realm.
And KING OF THE NORTH, hero of kvatch,the key holder, the pirate king, and god emperor who protects.
Agreed. It could make him a writers pet (which is a fair charge, albeit one that could be aimed at any companion with post-game content), but really doesn't make him a Sue.
A writers pet who can die like a dog?
My dislike for this is really more about adding yet another absurdity to Fiona's list of absurdities than it is about Alistair, who is basically a failure the Warden has to (potentially) succeed in place of.
Fiona, on the other hand, is just a bit too magical special awesome snowflake for my tastes. An elf mage slave with included traumatic experience (because being an elf, slave, and mage wasn't sad enough, apparently), who murders her master and isn't immediately executed in spite of living in a world where elves, mages, and slaves are often killed for no reason at all. She then goes on to be a Grey Warden who hangs out with the Mentor before he was the Mentor, the King of the Land and the Hero of the Land when they were still awesome adventurers. And not only does she hang out with them, but they think she is the most awesome Grey Warden Mage that ever Grey Warden Maged in the history of Grey Warden Maging. And on their adventure, they basically do all the Architect parts of Awakening before it is cool, because the Warden Commander can suck it. Oh! Oh! And in spite of hating each other and having zero in common (plus traumatic past!) she bangs the King. Because reasons on her part and because Maric can't go too long without sexing someone not named Rowan or he loses his superpowers. And then she goes and hangs out with the First Warden. Oh, and has a kid. With the King.
But wait! There's more!
Now that we've established that she is the most awesome Warden ever, she's cured of the Taint because that crap was just holding her back. Now she joins the Circle and everyone loves her, and because she is the most admirable and awesome mage ever, they promote her to the highest position possible, you know, in spite of other Mages who have lived their entire lives in the Circle probably having more in common with their fellow Circle Mages. Because everyone loves her. And, of course, she is just the bestest Grand Enchanter.
But wait! There's more!
In spite of the Circle being an evil slave prison of evilness where evil Templars evilly control every facet of mage lives(with evil), including which mages get to wear the fancy mage leadership hats, she manages to get the whole Mage Leadership together and hold a democratic vote to tell the evil Templars to go away. AND IT FAILS! THE TRAGEDY! So, because the evil Templars are evil and control every facet of mage life, including which mages get to wear the fancy mage leadership hats, she is immediately removed from office and killed, because this mage freedom business is Not Acceptable.
Oh, wait, no. This is Fiona, so that last bit doesn't happen. The evil Templars just let her keep doing her thing, because Fiona. And to the surprise of no one, and because way back when she got de-Tainted she decided she was going to be Mage Moses, she does it again! And wins! And despite being in a tower full of evil Templars created and trained for the sole purpose of putting mages down, they all escape and yay.
The End.
Oh, wait, no. That kid she had with the King goes on and hangs out with another Warden who does some cool stuff like Fiona (but she totally did some of it first, and cooler). And her son, and Marric's, rest his not yet dead soul, goes on to (maybe) become King.
NOW The End (until Inquisition. Maybe.)
Honestly, you could distribute Fiona's accomplishments to three characters and not a one of them would have reason to feel lacking in the presence of the Warden who united a nation and saved the world.
Wait how is Alistair a failure as a warden? And none of what you said makes he a special snow flake or a writers pet. And her being cured of the taint does not make her special...It make the architect special because he was the one to cure it.
Her actions to split from the templers fail because of a mage and the fact the chantry want to keep the mages in check.
Seriously, you may hate the character but she is not a writers pet or a mary sue.
Wait how is Alistair a failure as a warden? And none of what you said makes he a special snow flake or a writers pet. And her being cured of the taint does not make her special...It make the architect special because he was the one to cure it.
Her actions to split from the templers fail because of a mage and the fact the chantry want to keep the mages in check.
Seriously, you may hate the character but she is not a writers pet or a mary sue.
If Fiona dies at the intro, I doubt she would be considered an Mary sue. An Mary sue would easily escape that explosion, and oh wait, someone already does that!
As for Alistair being an failure as an warden, you just need to play the game. He refuses to lead, criticize to no end for every pragmatic decision you do, even though these choices are usually the choices expected from an warden, quits when he doesn't get his revenge and abandons everything and everyone. I don't think these are the traits of an sucessful warden.
If Fiona dies at the intro, I doubt she would be considered an Mary sue. An Mary sue would easily escape that explosion, and oh wait, someone already does that!
As for Alistair being an failure as an warden, you just need to play the game. He refuses to lead, criticize to no end for every pragmatic decision you do, even though these choices are usually the choices expected from an warden, quits when he doesn't get his revenge and abandons everything and everyone. I don't think these are the traits of an sucessful warden.
"Every" pragmatic decision? Hardly. Which ones are you even thinking of?
In any case, his refusing to lead is rather better than contesting the PC for leadership; he knows his limitations, as is clearly seen in Darkspawn Chronicles, where he apparently becomes Morrigan's puppet.
"Every" pragmatic decision? Hardly. Which ones are you even thinking of?
In any case, his refusing to lead is rather better than contesting the PC for leadership; he knows his limitations, as is clearly seen in Darkspawn Chronicles, where he apparently becomes Morrigan's puppet.
Preserving the Anvil. He is completely against it. But the benefits to the dwarves of Orzammar are great. People are sacrificed to it, but thanks to these new golems they push the darkspawn back and keep the people safe;
Not going to the circle and either killing Connor or sacrificing Isolde to avoid any further mayhem being unleashed in Redcliffe;
Refusing to help the werewolves in order to gain the dalish as allies;
All pragmatic options that make sacrifices, with the greater good in vision, like the wardens do. And Alistair is against them.
Preserving the Anvil. He is completely against it. But the benefits to the dwarves of Orzammar are great. People are sacrificed to it, but thanks to these new golems they push the darkspawn back and keep the people safe;
Not going to the circle and either killing Connor or sacrificing Isolde to avoid any further mayhem being unleashed in Redcliffe;
Refusing to help the werewolves in order to gain the dalish as allies;
All pragmatic options that make sacrifices, with the greater good in vision, like the wardens do. And Alistair is against them.
Actually, it becomes utterly FUBAR if Harrowmont is king, and if Bhelen is, the benefits only last a short time before Branka seals the Anvil off. Leaving Redcliffe to get the Circle is the right decision, and when does he ever refuse to help the Dalish?
Actually, it becomes utterly FUBAR if Harrowmont is king, and if Bhelen is, the benefits only last a short time before Branka seals the Anvil off. Leaving Redcliffe to get the Circle is the right decision, and when does he ever refuse to help the Dalish?
We know is the right choice. But an player that never saw the game would know that? We only know because of metagaming, someone that doesn't have it could think differently. He doesn't refuse to help the dalish, but he disapproves if you refuse to bring Zathrian and simply kill the werewolves for the heart, wich is a much quicker and simpler solution to the quest.
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
Leaving Redcliffe to get the Circle is the right decision
It really isn't. The only Warden that I did this with wanted political leverage over Eamon and thus thought that risking an entire village to a Desire Abomination was a tolerable price.
The 'right' decision in that scenario is killing Connor.
We know is the right choice. But an player that never saw the game would know that? We only know because of metagaming, someone that doesn't have it could think differently. He doesn't refuse to help the dalish, but he disapproves if you refuse to bring Zathrian and simply kill the werewolves for the heart, wich is a much quicker and simpler solution to the quest.
So he disapproves of two decisions that turn out to be wrong, and you cite that as evidence of his being an unfit Warden?
As for the third, it's not that much quicker or easier, really.
It really isn't. The only Warden that I did this with wanted political leverage over Eamon and thus thought that risking an entire village to a Desire Abomination was a tolerable price.
The 'right' decision in that scenario is killing Connor.
Well, it turns out to have the best results, so...
I'm happy it's been confirmed, it has a lot of awesome roleplay implications for my headcanon - my warden is a female Dalish who starts out very racist/speciesist towards humans and also very prejudiced against city elves - slowly she learns not to Be A Dick (tho she's still a bit of a dick) and comes to see them as something other than shems and flat ears. she accepts that flat ears are as much elf as she is first, and has a nice comradey fwb relationship with zevran for a while (incidentally she was involved with her friend tamlen). she ends up with alistair and it's twu wuv but only after about 9 months (origins takes about 1 year right?) of treating him horribly and thinking of him as nothing but a big stupid shem. only he's elf-blooded after all and o the implications ~~
Preserving the Anvil. He is completely against it. But the benefits to the dwarves of Orzammar are great. People are sacrificed to it, but thanks to these new golems they push the darkspawn back and keep the people safe;
Not going to the circle and either killing Connor or sacrificing Isolde to avoid any further mayhem being unleashed in Redcliffe;
Refusing to help the werewolves in order to gain the dalish as allies;
All pragmatic options that make sacrifices, with the greater good in vision, like the wardens do. And Alistair is against them.
Alistair was such a pain to deal with during my male playthroughs. Typically because of him b*tching about the choices I would have made in the situation. I don't mind a confrontational companion but Alistair had the chance to lead and he refused but wants to play backseat leader whenever you make a choice he wouldn't have made. All of the more pragmatic choices led to a much stronger army during the final fight anyway. Templars beat out those soft mages, the golems were a needed extra force to have, the wolves were awesome. Although I typically cure them.
Abandoning the people Ferelden because he I didn't kill Loghain was a new low. it only cement his total failure as a warden and a potential King. that's why my Warden married Anora and stepped up to the consort role to provide some sort of stable force to the country and it's leader then trusting it to "i don't want to be King" Alistair.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
The elves are way better than the werewolves, imo. The best thing against the archdemon is mages or archers.
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
Alistair was such a pain to deal with during my male playthroughs. Typically because of him b*tching about the choices I would have made in the situation. I don't mind a confrontational companion but Alistair had the chance to lead and he refused but wants to play backseat leader whenever you make a choice he wouldn't have made. All of the more pragmatic choices led to a much stronger army during the final fight anyway. Templars beat out those soft mages, the golems were a needed extra force to have, the wolves were awesome. Although I typically cure them.
Abandoning the people Ferelden because he I didn't kill Loghain was a new low. it only cement his total failure as a warden and a potential King. that's why my Warden married Anora and stepped up to the consort role to provide some sort of stable force to the country and it's leader then trusting it to "i don't want to be King" Alistair.
Only part I disagree with is Mages vs Templars. The Mages are better against the Archdemon because they stay at range and use spells.
If Fiona dies at the intro, I doubt she would be considered an Mary sue. An Mary sue would easily escape that explosion, and oh wait, someone already does that!
As for Alistair being an failure as an warden, you just need to play the game. He refuses to lead, criticize to no end for every pragmatic decision you do, even though these choices are usually the choices expected from an warden, quits when he doesn't get his revenge and abandons everything and everyone. I don't think these are the traits of an sucessful warden.
Refusing to lead does not make one a failure. Nor is his criticism . It would be like saying Morrigan is a failure because she criticizes any sociable choice you do. And Alistair quitting is based on version of his character and out comes. It like saying Zerveran is a failure because he can betray you if your rating with him is low.
Only part I disagree with is Mages vs Templars. The Mages are better against the Archdemon because they stay at range and use spells.
Or the dalish. And the templars make for invaluable help in the alienage when it comes to dealing with emissary general.
The elves are way better than the werewolves, imo. The best thing against the archdemon is mages or archers.
I didn't use the wolves during the arch demon fight but I did use them in one of the battles in the city. They were tearing up enemies before I had a chance to get to them. Made it much faster to get through it. For the arch demon I just use my remaining forces as meat shields while I use the siege weapons. However, I do find that the Golems last way longer fighting the arch demon.
It really isn't. The only Warden that I did this with wanted political leverage over Eamon and thus thought that risking an entire village to a Desire Abomination was a tolerable price.
The 'right' decision in that scenario is killing Connor.
Cold hearted much. And the answer is their is no "right" decision or "best" decision.
Only part I disagree with is Mages vs Templars. The Mages are better against the Archdemon because they stay at range and use spells.
Sadly, I stopped using mages during the arch demon fight cause they die too quickly.
All pragmatic options that make sacrifices, with the greater good in vision, like the wardens do. And Alistair is against them.
You have no idea what hubris is and how quickly one can fall to it with that thinking.
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
Cold hearted much. And the answer is their is no "right" decision or "best" decision.
That's why I used apostrophes. And call me cold-hearted all you want. One privileged mage that should have been sent to the Circle, but wasn't because his influential mommy didn't allow it vs an entire village of fishermen, fishwives, and children. I'll pick the latter every time.
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