937 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

I agree that preserving the Anvil is the pragmatic thing to do; though I wished that we could have taken it from Branka and given the Anvil to someone less crazy. The sacrifice required to create the golems, and the potential for abuse is an unfortunate side effect, but no more then the people using it. It's a tool, it has no good or evil morals. 

 

Let's not forget that Shale volunteered to become a Golem to defend her people, now its true that the Dwarven leader did abuse the Anvil and used it to kill innocents and political adversaries, but even then those unjust murders could be used to save dwarf lives. Caradin wanted to destroy the anvil, because he viewed it as abhorrent; something that no one should have to endure; but he refuses to help protect his people from the very real possibility of extinction, by killing himself should the Warden destroy the Anvil.

 

Personally, I would have kept the Anvil, and then asked for volunteers. Failing that I would have criminals, and murderers; people that would be put to death for their crimes anyway; become members of the Golem Defense Force. Is the possibility for abuse of power still there? Yes absolutely. Are the Dwarves more likely to be annihilated without the tireless golems helping to defend their last great city? Yes absolutely. 

What guarantees the "right" person stays in charge of the use of the Anvil? That was Caradin's issue.

[Heimdall]

Feynreil looks mostly human. Goldana and her mother are just covers. Her mother deid at child birth with the baby dieing and was switch with Alistair as a baby.

Even if that theory is true, it doesn't explain how Goldana would become so convinced Alistair was the king's son that they felt the need to pay her off and send her away.

[Hazegurl]

I prefer not to use Jowan's help - I don't trust him not to screw up and Morrigan isn't thrilled with the idea. (Yea, I know things work out, but I don't meta-game.)

I agree. I always turn Jowan down. There is no way I'm going to let him perform blood magic and choosing between a demon possessed boy who murdered half a village and a non mage is no choice at all. The boy dies. If anything, a person who selects that option without metagaming is just lucky.

[Reaverwind]

I agree that preserving the Anvil is the pragmatic thing to do; though I wished that we could have taken it from Branka and given the Anvil to someone less crazy. The sacrifice required to create the golems, and the potential for abuse is an unfortunate side effect, but no more then the people using it. It's a tool, it has no good or evil morals. 

 

Let's not forget that Shale volunteered to become a Golem to defend her people, now its true that the Dwarven leader did abuse the Anvil and used it to kill innocents and political adversaries, but even then those unjust murders could be used to save dwarf lives. Caradin wanted to destroy the anvil, because he viewed it as abhorrent; something that no one should have to endure; but he refuses to help protect his people from the very real possibility of extinction, by killing himself should the Warden destroy the Anvil.

 

Personally, I would have kept the Anvil, and then asked for volunteers. Failing that I would have criminals, and murderers; people that would be put to death for their crimes anyway; become members of the Golem Defense Force. Is the possibility for abuse of power still there? Yes absolutely. Are the Dwarves more likely to be annihilated without the tireless golems helping to defend their last great city? Yes absolutely. 

 

I don't consider it to be that pragmatic a choice. Remember where it's located - and how many darkspawn had to be cleared to even reach it. That area isn't going to remain clear forever. Remember the last time the Anvil was lost - those events are highly likely to repeat whenever politics come into play, making the anvil of limited use to anyone but the one controlling the anvil. Those golems also don't solve the problem of declining birth rate - which I consider more detrimental to the dwarves' continued existance. Having a few golems here and there won't end attrition. 

[TK514]

Sten's mission went fubar.
Zevran is far from elegant as he proceeds to be and his opening moment is him failing
Oghren had 0 to no respect in Ozimaar.
Morrigan is technically a 28-30 years old still living with her mom and has communication issues.
Wynne had made a lot of mess ups in her life.
Shale did not even remember what she was before and spent a good portion of her life as help and a bird toilet.
Leliana was stuck running away from life and living in disillusions.
 
And you main arguement that Alistair is a failure because he has not done anything yet before he turned 20?(Yes, he is 20 in dragon age origins. He was born 9:10 and origins happen in 9:30.)

Yes, they all had failures. Because they all made attempts. Alistair is 20 in a society where 20 is well past the age someone should be at least looking to find their own direction, and hadn't attempted anything. Alistair's chosen direction would have been "sit in Redcliffe cracking jokes or whining that no one loved him". When the Warden met him, every major decision about his life had been made by someone else, and that trend continues right up to the point he can take the throne or run away. And that decision is forced on him.

Don't get me wrong, I actually like Alistair. He's a lovable loser, who's avoidance of anything that might possibly resemble taking control of his life often comes in the form of amusing wit. I just don't have any illusions about his chances of making anything of himself had the Warden not fortuitously arrived. And he whines a lot.

[Xilizhra]

I agree. I always turn Jowan down. There is no way I'm going to let him perform blood magic and choosing between a demon possessed boy who murdered half a village and a non mage is no choice at all. The boy dies. If anything, a person who selects that option without metagaming is just lucky.

Just have the rest of the party hold down the fort back at the castle.

[Vortex13]

What guarantees the "right" person stays in charge of the use of the Anvil? That was Caradin's issue.

 

 

No one can. A council or group of elected officials would help mitigate the possibility for abuse, but it would always be there; just like with any other from of power.

 

The point that I am making though is that even if an evil despot comes to power and turns all of his enemies into golems, we can still have good come out of those golems in protecting people. It's a terrible thing to be forced into becoming a golem, but at least they can still serve a purpose in helping defend the dwarves from extinction, which is a lot more than can be said about an evil despot that just kills his enemies.

[leaguer of one]

Even if that theory is true, it doesn't explain how Goldana would become so convinced Alistair was the king's son that they felt the need to pay her off and send her away.

Ether that babe was the king child and died or it was preplanned to have Alistair switched but the woman and the baby died before it happened.

[Xilizhra]

Yes, they all had failures. Because they all made attempts. Alistair is 20 in a society where 20 is well past the age someone should be at least looking to find their own direction, and hadn't attempted anything. Alistair's chosen direction would have been "sit in Redcliffe cracking jokes or whining that no one loved him". When the Warden met him, every major decision about his life had been made by someone else, and that trend continues right up to the point he can take the throne or run away. And that decision is forced on him.

Don't get me wrong, I actually like Alistair. He's a lovable loser, who's avoidance of anything that might possibly resemble taking control of his life often comes in the form of amusing wit. I just don't have any illusions about his chances of making anything of himself had the Warden not fortuitously arrived. And he whines a lot.

Out of curiosity, do you slam Carver, who has the same problem at 19?

And his only real problem is finding direction; once he has it, he's quite good with it.

[TK514]

Eh, it matters little in the end. He's still a good king.

Surprisingly true. He never would have made it on his own, but fortunately he had people to find something he was good at for him.

So it works out in the end.

[Xilizhra]

Surprisingly true. He never would have made it on his own, but fortunately he had people to find something he was good at for him.

So it works out in the end.

None of us truly make it on our own, I feel.

[TK514]

Out of curiosity, do you slam Carver, who has the same problem at 19?
And his only real problem is finding direction; once he has it, he's quite good with it.

Yes, I have a similar problem with Carver. Though Carver is fortunate in that he has something Alistair did not, namely a supremely talented older sibling to measure himself against and be jealous of/resentful towards. That at least gives him some motivation to make his own choices, particularly if he goes Templar.

[Han Shot First]

Its disapointing that the decided to canonize that retcon. It creates problems with both the supposed origins (Goldanna's family) that were presented with in DA:O, and Loghain's dialogue if he is recruited. Beyond that it turns Alistair into a bit too special a snowflake. Its not enough that he is a king descended from a long line of kings, or a Templar, or a Grey Warden, or special because of dragon blood...he's also now descended from an Elven Grey Warden that was cured of the taint.

 

Parts of DA:O do not now make sense, and Alistair is approaching near critical mass in the Mary Sue department. 

 

This is why you never pull a George Lucas. Sometimes you got to stop tinkering with your past work and leave it alone. 

[leaguer of one]

Yes, they all had failures. Because they all made attempts. Alistair is 20 in a society where 20 is well past the age someone should be at least looking to find their own direction, and hadn't attempted anything. Alistair's chosen direction would have been "sit in Redcliffe cracking jokes or whining that no one loved him". When the Warden met him, every major decision about his life had been made by someone else, and that trend continues right up to the point he can take the throne or run away. And that decision is forced on him.

Don't get me wrong, I actually like Alistair. He's a lovable loser, who's avoidance of anything that might possibly resemble taking control of his life often comes in the form of amusing wit. I just don't have any illusions about his chances of making anything of himself had the Warden not fortuitously arrived. And he whines a lot.

Not really. 20 is the age in dragon age when some is around the age of finishing learning the basics of their trade. Alistair was just about to become a templer when he became a warden. Alistair was sent to become a warden before had the chance try to become anything. He was still just a kid then. It correct to say every major decisions in his life was decied by someone else but that can be said about most of the companions in da:o. Morrigan, Sten, Lilianna, and Zavern being main examples of that.

 

When it comes down to say he's a failure because he has not done anything by the time he's 20 is a very extreme argument being how little a person can do by the time they are 20 no matter the age.

[leaguer of one]

Out of curiosity, do you slam Carver, who has the same problem at 19?

And his only real problem is finding direction; once he has it, he's quite good with it.

Same argument can be used with Hawk and the warden.

[leaguer of one]

Its disapointing that the decided to canonize that retcon. It creates problems with both the supposed origins (Goldanna's family) that were presented with in DA:O, and Loghain's dialogue if he is recruited. Beyond that it turns Alistair into a bit too special a snowflake. Its not enough that he is a king descended from a long line of kings, or a Templar, or a Grey Warden, or special because of dragon blood...he's also now descended from an Elven Grey Warden that was cured of the taint.

 

Parts of DA:O do not now make sense, and Alistair is approaching near critical mass in the Mary Sue department. 

 

This is why you never pull a George Lucas. Sometimes you got to stop tickering with your past work and leave it alone. 

It was always canonized. And Loghain's dialogue was off from the state being that he states Rowan was alive when Alistair was born when she was not. This does not make anything in DA:O not make sense or Alistair a mary sue.

[Vortex13]

I don't consider it to be that pragmatic a choice. Remember where it's located - and how many darkspawn had to be cleared to even reach it. That area isn't going to remain clear forever. Remember the last time the Anvil was lost - those events are highly likely to repeat whenever politics come into play, making the anvil of limited use to anyone but the one controlling the anvil. Those golems also don't solve the problem of declining birth rate - which I consider more detrimental to the dwarves' continued existance. Having a few golems here and there won't end attrition. 

 

 

Having access to golems again might not completely eliminate attrition of Darkspawn numbers, but it would make it possible for the Dwarves to hold out a lot longer then if they didn't use golems. 

 

Assuming that one golem is worth ten dwarven warriors, you could free up battalions of dwarf men and women with a handful of the stone/iron constructs; men and women that wouldn't have to be exposed to the Taint, and could remain in the city bolstering it's defenses, or at the very least making more dwarf babies.

 

Also, consider the fact that golems are immune to the Taint, they don't need to eat, or sleep, and they don't feel fear, or question orders, who better to patrol the Deep Roads?

[DinkyD]

It was always canonized. And Loghain's dialogue was off from the state being that he states Rowan was alive when Alistair was born when she was not. This does not make anything in DA:O not make sense or Alistair a mary sue.

 

It's not just in Loghain's but Alistair's dialogue also. He believes that he was conceived while Rowan was alive.

[Hazegurl]

He does not remains possessed. He link the the demons remains. And even then he does have the chance to repel it. And the case he still is connected to the demon is if you make a deal with the demon, when you fake saving him. Not a good point to use.

Yes he does, The demon maintains the link and can possess him in the future.. for all we know that could have been why he passed his harrowing in that scenario. Also, you are now headcanoning things. You have no idea if Connor can repel the demon in the future. And yes, it is a valid point to use because different things can happen with Connor, not just the one YOU choose.

 

Essentially, without metagaming you have no clue what will happen in the future and everything you do is by chance.

 

You don't know if Jowan's blood magic will work thus sacrificing a person's life for nothing.

You don't know if you will have time to trek to the Circle to get help for him.

If you stay and help the Circle, you don't know if that time eats into when that kid will launch a new attack or even something worse to those inside the castle.

And you don't know if he will get sent to the Circle to live normally or be made tranquil regardless of your help. Considering what they went through I can't see them not making him tranquil right off the bat. imo.

 

Overall. Only ONE scenario has him passing his Harrowing without that demon link and it doesn't involve trekking all the way to the Circle for aid.

[Xilizhra]

Yes he does, The demon maintains the link and can possess him in the future.. for all we know that could have been why he passed his harrowing in that scenario. Also, you are now headcanoning things. You have no idea if Connor can repel the demon in the future. And yes, it is a valid point to use because different things can happen with Connor, not just the one YOU choose.

 

Essentially, without metagaming you have no clue what will happen in the future and everything you do is by chance.

 

You don't know if Jowan's blood magic will work thus sacrificing a person's life for nothing.

You don't know if you will have time to trek to the Circle to get help for him.

If you stay and help the Circle, you don't know if that time eats into when that kid will launch a new attack or even something worse to those inside the castle.

And you don't know if he will get sent to the Circle to live normally or be made tranquil regardless of your help. Considering what they went through I can't see them not making him tranquil right off the bat. imo.

 

Overall. Only ONE scenario has him passing his Harrowing without that demon link and it doesn't involve trekking all the way to the Circle for aid.

Er, you can just kill the demon after getting the Circle's help. The link won't mean much then. And Connor is fine in the epilogue if you do that anyway.

[Hazegurl]

Er, you can just kill the demon after getting the Circle's help. The link won't mean much then. And Connor is fine in the epilogue if you do that anyway.

"If Connor is saved and the Desire Demon killed or scared away, Arl Eamon may merely comment that Connor has been acting strangely. This will happen if his mother, Lady Isolde, also survives the events in Redcliffe."

 

Idk if I trust that.

[Xilizhra]

"If Connor is saved and the Desire Demon killed or scared away, Arl Eamon may merely comment that Connor has been acting strangely. This will happen if his mother, Lady Isolde, also survives the events in Redcliffe."

 

Idk if I trust that.

That hardly changes anything about the epilogues.

[Heimdall]

Ether that babe was the king child and died or it was preplanned to have Alistair switched but the woman and the baby died before it happened.

Only the former explains where Goldana might get the idea, but seems rather out of character for Maric.  She was convinced, not just that the child was the kings, but also that they shared a mother.  The whole thing's just odd.

[Han Shot First]

It was always canonized. And Loghain's dialogue was off from the state being that he states Rowan was alive when Alistair was born when she was not. This does not make anything in DA:O not make sense or Alistair a mary sue.

 

It quite obviously wasn't canonized from the start. If it was, we wouldn't have had Alistair's quest where he meets Goldanna. There is no need for Goldanna if she was never intended to be Alistair's sister. Who was the baby that Goldanna's mother gave birth to? And how was it that Alistair ended up being passed off as that infant? Also Loghain's dialogue about Rowan still being alive also implies that originally his mother was supposed to be the human serving girl that birthed Goldanna, rather than Fiona. The dialogue about Rowan doesn't make sense because in order to make Fiona Alistair's mother, Alistair would need to be younger and born after Rowan died. 

 

This is obviously an idea that Gaider latched onto after DA:O released. He pulled a Lucas. Unfortunately it doesn't quite work, given what was already presented in DA:O.