Aller au contenu

Photo

So this debate on Alistair is finally over.(The Calling spoiler)

Débuté par leaguer of one , juil. 09 2014 04:26

937 réponses à ce sujet

#451
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:40

Guest_Faerunner_*
  • Guests

Being the king's kid is a bigger deal than being elf blooded, even in Thedas. 

 

I'm not saying he wouldn't have been treated like crap, but still, being the king's bastard is a larger part of it and there was no need to acknowledge he was the king's at all.

 

Not necessarily. If you try to convince the Alistair to marry you as an elf in the Landsmeet, he'll basically make it clear that their objection to having an elf on the throne is stronger than their loyalty to the king's wishes. It doesn't matter if the king says, "This one's all right to rule," they'll say NOPE! Elven! Denied! (Same with mages and dwarves.)

 

Remember, elves live under systematic subjugation. The system places them at the bottom and humans feel threatened when they start to rise above their place. The Alienage Codex reveals that if an elf tries to move out of the alienage, human lynch mobs will burn and loot their houses, if they don't murder the owners. If you appoint an Elven Bann for the Denerim Alienage, even if it's the Hero of Ferelden, humans lead violent race riots in the streets. If King Alistair has Hahren join his council, the human nobles feel threatened by just having one elven voice at the table.

 

Heck, many nobles and commoners alike object to Loghain being named Teyrn and Anora marrying the Cailan because of their common blood. It's not enough to raise a huge stink, but enough that many people don't like the idea of commoners being raised into nobility. Many noble families known to have mage blood like the Amells and then Eamon Gwaren also lose face because mages are undesirable, thus unfit to inherit, thus not good for continuing the noble family bloodline. Noble and royal families are indeed based on blood, but they have to keep the bloodlines "pure" to keep the common riff-raff from getting in.

 

So, yeah. Elven blood is a huge problem. Allowing elven blood to rule opens a lot of new doors on what other ways elves are allowed to rise up, and the system is threatened. I think people can overlook a regular common human due to king's blood, but I think elven blood is a whole lower level that nearly cancels out the king's blood. So yes, Alistair's elven blood would cause a huge problem and likely trumps, or at least cancels out his king blood.


  • Dermain et Kisari aiment ceci

#452
leaguer of one
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:40

leaguer of one
  • Members
  • 9 995 messages

Let's stop pretending like Alistair had a chance at the Throne (without the Warden's help) even if he wasn't a half-elf. Bryce Cousland was voted King by the Landsmeet and Cailan was the 'official heir'.

He was never made king nor was he stated to be an heir.


#453
leaguer of one
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:41

leaguer of one
  • Members
  • 9 995 messages

No the only reason Alistair was put forward is because Eamon wanted a Theirin on the throne.

 

The only reason he became King was because Loghain royally fucked up.

That's true as well.


#454
Former_Fiend
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:42

Former_Fiend
  • Members
  • 6 942 messages

It's not that he would suspect. It's what other people would suspect, nobles, would suspect.

 

Only three nobles knew he existed; Loghain, Eamon, and Teagan. 

 

This also raises a pretty damn good question; why didn't Loghain reveal Alistair was elf-blooded during the Landsmeet? That would have been a huge blow to Eamon's plan to put Alistiar on the throne, even if he didn't have anything to back it up.


  • Mister Sunshine aime ceci

#455
leaguer of one
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:43

leaguer of one
  • Members
  • 9 995 messages

Those are extraordinary circumstances(House Cousland's all but wiped out at that point, and both Alistair and the lone (known) surviving Cousland are wardens, who aren't supposed to inherit at all). Add to that the (very plausible) theory that Eamon mainly wanted Alistair on the throne so he could use him as a puppet king...

 

In any event, Bryce Cousland was the Landsmeet's first choice to succeed Maric. The only reason Cailen was placed on the throne was that Bryce refused it. 

So what? He clearly was not made an Heir. So the point is baseless.


#456
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:44

Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
  • Guests

He was never made king nor was he stated to be an heir.

 

Yes he was LOL. He said no, thanks. Cailan got engaged to Anora. Then the Landsmeet decided to let Cailan be King. 


#457
leaguer of one
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:44

leaguer of one
  • Members
  • 9 995 messages

Only three nobles knew he existed; Loghain, Eamon, and Teagan. 

 

This also raises a pretty damn good question; why didn't Loghain reveal Alistair was elf-blooded during the Landsmeet? That would have been a huge blow to Eamon's plan to put Alistiar on the throne, even if he didn't have anything to back it up.

We don't know that Loghain knows.  The calling never shows or states that Loghian knows who Alistair's real mother is.


#458
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:46

Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
  • Guests

So what? He clearly was not made an Heir. So the point is baseless.

 

No it isn't. You're saying that a bastard (elf-blooded or otherwise) has more claim to the Throne then a man that was already nominated King. Stop being dense.


#459
leaguer of one
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:46

leaguer of one
  • Members
  • 9 995 messages

Yes he was LOL. He said no, thanks. Cailan got engaged to Anora. Then the Landsmeet decided to let Cailan be King. 

No, he was not. I looked it up. He was only preferred to be king. That does not mean he was made king or an heir.


  • Agent Verona aime ceci

#460
Guest_Challenge Everything_*
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:46

Guest_Challenge Everything_*
  • Guests

That's not what Loghain said nor was it in the calling. It was Fioana that asked that her background to be hidden.

 

*runs to get book*

*returns with book*

The following is a subjective narrative portraying Maric's thoughts on raising Alistair:

"If he recognized the boy and raised him in the palace, he [the child] would be subject to constant politics and struggles. He would be seen as competition for Cailan. Better to have him raised somewhere quietly, out of sight and allowed to his own destiny... Let the boy have his chance to be free of both [Fiona and Maric's] legacies (The Calling, p 444)."

Yeah. I site my sources when in online debates.


  • Dermain aime ceci

#461
leaguer of one
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:46

leaguer of one
  • Members
  • 9 995 messages

No it isn't. You're saying that a bastard (elf-blooded or otherwise) has more claim to the Throne then a man that was already nominated King. Stop being dense.

I never said that. I just said he never was made an heir not that he could not be.


#462
Shadow Fox
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:47

Shadow Fox
  • Members
  • 4 206 messages

So what? He clearly was not made an Heir. So the point is baseless.

Not if the point is a Cousland having a stronger claim than Alistair's.


#463
The Hierophant
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:47

The Hierophant
  • Members
  • 6 932 messages
Sh!t. Now Alistair is even more speshul than all my Wardens combined. This won't be tolerated.

#464
Former_Fiend
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:48

Former_Fiend
  • Members
  • 6 942 messages


We don't know that Loghain knows.  The calling never shows or states that Loghian knows who Alistair's real mother is.

 

Dragon Age Origins states that he does.

 

Forgive me if I want take the word of one of the best written games of our generation over that first draft drek that is The Calling.

 

And even still, that only further enhances my point; at best, only two nobles(Eamon and Teagan) would know. And really, there's nothing to suggest they were ever told, so the only person who would know outside of Maric and Fiona is Duncan. There's no need for all this mystery and cover-up, other than to obfuscate it from the player.


#465
Former_Fiend
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:49

Former_Fiend
  • Members
  • 6 942 messages

So what? He clearly was not made an Heir. So the point is baseless.

 

Who is heir is secondary to who the Landsmeet chooses to succeed the king; the Ferelden monarchy is electoral. 


#466
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:51

Guest_Faerunner_*
  • Guests

Let's stop pretending like Alistair had a chance at the Throne (without the Warden's help) even if he wasn't a half-elf. Bryce Cousland was voted King by the Landsmeet and Cailan was the 'official heir'.

 

No, they didn't. Check your facts.

 

Dairren in the human noble origin mentions that he heard that some nobles thought Bryce should be king instead of Cailan, but then he admits, "But they might have just been saying that out of love for your father than anything else." It's hardly an official vote or proof that he was legally more qualified.


  • Agent Verona aime ceci

#467
Guest_Challenge Everything_*
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:53

Guest_Challenge Everything_*
  • Guests

Eamon,Isolde,Maric,the Arl's servants,The Chantry he was raised in,Loghain...

Eamon cared for Alistair, and Alistair was basically one of the servants, so I doubt that the servants would treat him any differently. It sounds like the other boys in the Chantry treated him as a friend/like the rest of them. The Mother their was just a ******.

And Maric loved Alistair. the idea of having Alistair taken away killed him. Duncan would check on Alistair occasionally and then go see Maric and tell him how he was doing because Maric wanted to know. Maric did not treat him like dirt or hate him in any way.

Loghain probably only hates Alistair because he loved Rowan. Probably more than he ever loved his own wife.


#468
leaguer of one
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:56

leaguer of one
  • Members
  • 9 995 messages

*runs to get book*

*returns with book*

The following is a subjective narrative portraying Maric's thoughts on raising Alistair:

"If he recognized the boy and raised him in the palace, he [the child] would be subject to constant politics and struggles. He would be seen as competition for Cailan. Better to have him raised somewhere quietly, out of sight and allowed to his own destiny... Let the boy have his chance to be free of both [Fiona and Maric's] legacies (The Calling, p 444)."

Yeah. I site my sources when in online debates.

Reread the epilogue. Meric told his camber man not to tell Loghian about his meeting with Duncan and Fiona which he met in the middle of the knight. He was not even their went Meric first met Alistair.  Heck, Logain was in Guarm at the time

 

So no, Loghain did not know who Alistair mom was.


#469
KC_Prototype
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:58

KC_Prototype
  • Members
  • 4 603 messages

Betraying her friend to take the fall for murder, instigating a plan to manipulate the temper to attack the mages and starting a war and

Spoiler
is something to like about a person?

A revolutionist?! How could you hate them! Well, yeah the betrayal of friendship and getting friends killed is bad but started a war isn't necessarily bad.


#470
leaguer of one
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:58

leaguer of one
  • Members
  • 9 995 messages

Who is heir is secondary to who the Landsmeet chooses to succeed the king; the Ferelden monarchy is electoral. 

It matters not. He was not made heir and he never took the job as king. It's a baseless point.


#471
Former_Fiend
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:58

Former_Fiend
  • Members
  • 6 942 messages

Truth be told I never doubted that the child at the end of the Calling was intended to be Alistair. 

 

I just really, really wished he wasn't.

 

It's a stupid plotline spawned by a terrible book, and I wish I could go back to waving the Death of the Author flag and pretending it wasn't true. 

 

But it's looking like that refuge is being taken away from me. 

 

So now I'm just going to have to make "Alistair is dead" my default world state in all playthroughs and hope that it never gets brought up.


  • KC_Prototype aime ceci

#472
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:59

Guest_Faerunner_*
  • Guests

*runs to get book*

*returns with book*

The following is a subjective narrative portraying Maric's thoughts on raising Alistair:

"If he recognized the boy and raised him in the palace, he [the child] would be subject to constant politics and struggles. He would be seen as competition for Cailan. Better to have him raised somewhere quietly, out of sight and allowed to his own destiny... Let the boy have his chance to be free of both [Fiona and Maric's] legacies (The Calling, p 444)."

Yeah. I site my sources when in online debates.

 

Thank you very much for quoting the book directly, because now I can say that his parents BOTH missed the mark on this one. Fiona didn't want him to be subjected to prejudice as an elf, Maric didn't want him to be subjected to the politics and struggles of royalty. So instead he was strung along like a dog on a leash, made to sleep in stables and kennels like an animal (just like many elves are), kept out of sight enough that he wouldn't step on more important people's toes but still kept close enough that Eamon could have a spare to the throne if anything happened to Cailan (which is exactly what happened). He had his life dictated by the decisions of other people (Isolde, Eamon, the Revered Mother, etc) who constantly looked down on him for his common blood, but also wanted to use him for his noble blood...

 

Yeah, they totally spared him from the downside of their legacies by passing him off to get raised by other people who knew of it.    


  • Dermain, llandwynwyn, Hazegurl et 1 autre aiment ceci

#473
leaguer of one
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 10:59

leaguer of one
  • Members
  • 9 995 messages

A revolutionist?! How could you hate them! Well, yeah the betrayal of friendship and getting friends killed is bad but started a war isn't necessarily bad.

How about when people that you're trying to free don't want the war and are forced into it?


  • Agent Verona aime ceci

#474
leaguer of one
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 11:00

leaguer of one
  • Members
  • 9 995 messages

Thank you very much for quoting the book directly, because now I can say that his parents BOTH missed the mark on this one. Fiona didn't want him to be subjected to prejudice as an elf, Maric didn't want him to be subjected to the politics and struggles of royalty. So instead he was strung along like a dog on a leash, made to sleep in stables and kennels like an animal (just like many elves are), kept out of sight enough that he wouldn't step on more important people's toes but still kept close enough that Eamon could have a spare to the throne if anything happened to Cailan (which is exactly what happened). He had his life dictated by the decisions of other people (Isolde, Eamon, the Revered Mother, etc) who constantly looked down on him for his common blood, but also wanted to use him for his noble blood...

 

Yeah, they totally spared him from the downside of their legacies by passing him off to get raised by other people who knew of it.    

That's not from the book. Loghain was not their when Maric met Alistair as a baby. He was in guarm


#475
Former_Fiend
Posté 09 juillet 2014 - 11:01

Former_Fiend
  • Members
  • 6 942 messages

It matters not. He was not made heir and he never took the job as king. It's a baseless point.

 

The point is that under normal circumstances, the Couslands, in all likelihood, would have been chosen as the new royal family over a bastard child if Cailen had died without siring an heir of his own.

 

The circumstances in Origins were anything but normal, and Alistair is chosen only due to the efforts of our warden, if we indeed choose to go that route.


Retourner dans Story, Campaign, and Characters


  1. The BioWare Forum
  2. → Dragon Age
  3. → Dragon Age: Inquisition
  4. → Story, Campaign, and Characters