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[Shark17676]

His father was willingly killed by Orlesians so that he could save Maric. He watched his mother get dragged away and then raped and killed. The Orlesian women his friend fell in love with betrayed them and cost them the lives of many good men.

It's not because Loghain thinks he's right about everything. It's because he can't trust Orlesians anymore.

 

In DAO Loghain absolutely thinks he's right about everything and refuses to hear anything to the contrary, even from his own daughter.

 

Yes, he had a tragic life, but the fact of the matter is he nearly doomed the world to suffer through another long bloodbath of a Blight, and quite possibly lead everything into total destruction if the war went the Darkspawns' way, and all because he allowed his hatred of Orlais to blind him to the real threat that was right in front of us all.  It doesn't excuse his other actions, either, what with the regicide he committed, selling Ferelden citizens into slavery for war funds, getting in bed with Howe with full knowledge of what a despicable man he was, and his cowardly assassination attempt on Eamon and multiple ones on the Warden...just to name a few things.

 

With such a betrayal on a global scale, even in disgrace he's lucky he got a clean death.

[Arakat]

...That links to no where.

 

 

Aha! Finally found the source to prove you wrong! Not gonna bother to quote it. 

http://social.biowar...504&lf=8#455902

I'm outta here for now. And now I can sleep tonight. 

 

Here's the Wiki discussion that references the BSN post you were probably trying to link: http://dragonage.wik...ren_of_a_Warden

 

According to Gaider, two Grey Wardens can not have children with each other at all.

[Ieldra]

According to Gaider, two Grey Wardens can not have children with each other at all.

Expect this piece of lore to get retconned as soon as some important writer wants to write a story which would necessitate it.

[Dermain]

WARNING! THIS IS A REALLY LONG POST! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! 

With my track record in this thread this will likely be overlooked by everyone. Much sadness occurred.

 

In a shoddy, hastily written prequel novel that you don't have the time or budget to give a proper editing cycle towards, you present a completely incompatible set of circumstances. 

You then choose the latter as your official canon.

And what's the gain? Alistair's mother is a poorly written character who he has a good chance of never meeting? How does this enhance the story?

 

It enhances the back story of the world. The Dragon Age universe did not begin on 9:30 Dragon on whatever month all of the Origins occur. There are characters going through various stages of their life in the game, and they deserve an enhanced description besides a short blurb. The novels presents us the character of Maric, and what happened to him before he "died". Loghain is also enhanced in the novels as we are able to see what actually drives him, where he got his preconceptions of Orlesians and the Wardens. This is of course far better than the few lines Simon Templeton utters IF you decide to spare him in Origins.

 

I am also intrigued that you are saying that The Calling was poorly edited etc simply because you dislike it. Shockingly, the two are not always linked together. If you do want an example of a poorly edited book in the DA universe I will happily point you towards World of Thedas...

 

It's been a while, but does he actually say that he loves this woman who he knew for all of a month? This woman who spent that entire time radiating hatred in his general direction?

 

Which is another problem I had with it; their "romance" was the most bile inducing, poorly written piece of sh*t excuse for a love story that I have ever had the misfortune of reading. These two people have no chemistry, no common ground, no connection. One spends the entire novel hating the other until her child hood trauma is healed by his magical penis. It's insulting drivel with nothing resembling real human emotion to it. 

 

There is ample psychological research that shows that when two people go through extremely stressful situations that they will grow closer together (emotionally/physically) regardless of their initial feelings. It's also why men try to take women they are interested in to horror movies (this is applicable to all genders) because it increases the male's chances of getting laid. It's also why when people go to war they end up extremely close (on an emotional level) with the people that they shared the same experiences with.

 

So you are wrong in saying that Maric and Fiona have no connection. They have a connection and it's that they are thrown into a situation that went horribly horribly wrong. They also have a common ground in that they kind of want to live. Is it a horrible romance for entertainment purposes? Of course, and that's because it is also shockingly real. However, you can argue over whether their feelings are real or are artificially created by their situation. Although one could also argue that if the feelings are still present X amount of time after the experience then the feelings become real.

 

Shockingly, not all relationships are:

 

Person X: "We have xyz in common! I LOVE YOU!"

Person Y: "I LOVE YOU TOO!" *happy ending*

 

There are NUMEROUS examples of two people that seem to have no connection with each other ending up together. Is it really common? Hell if I know, I'm not interested in studying it. Does it always lead to a good, long lasting relationship? Of course not. The fact is, that it happens and as such is an example of a real relationship no matter how much you want to kick and scream and cry about it.

 

I'm tired of seeing people go "I don't like it, therefore it has no basis in reality" for relationships.

 

And another thing; Loghain was not speaking about things second hand or making assumptions. He didn't say "Well the way I heard it was" or "If I had to guess, I'd say". He speaks in a very "This is how it was" manner. As if he was there, as if he witnessed the events, as if he was consulted on them.

 

You can try and rationalize it away by saying that he's now retroactively speaking in assumptions, but as written in Origins, he wasn't. 

 

Loghains character throughout the game speaks in a "This is how it is/was". It is consistent for his character to say things in that manner, and he NEVER deviates from it.

He specifically says the boys in the chantry either ignored him for his bastard status, or thought he “put on airs” and so presumably weren't kind to him.

 

You learn little of his time at Eamon's – other than Isolde made him very unwelcome and he slept in the stables. The last time Ban Teagon saw him he was covered in mud. Possible mixture of neglect and in addition wilful hostility from Isolde. You don't get the impression he was happy, just grateful.

 

Yet, and here is my point, despite this unhappy backround, Duncan and Maric were keeping an eye on him? Well they did a really bad job, Duncan only turning up at the last minute after Alistair had been desperately delaying his vows - to save him from becoming a drug addicted templar at the age of 20. Dramatic timing certainly.

 

And sorry about your recruitment Alistair, it wasn't Duncan taking an interest in you for you - just something else that happened to you because of your parentage. Yes, Duncan knew who you were all along.

 

It's either just not convincing or cheapens the narrative in Origins imho.

 

Just because Duncan said he would monitor the child does not mean that he has to be directly involved in his life.

 

Duncan may have had ulterior motives for recruiting Alistair, but does Alistair have to know in DAO those exact reasons? Does Duncan have to go all Darth Vader on Alistair? What purpose would revealing all of that to Alistair serve? What purpose would allowing the player in DAO reveal this to Alistair serve?

 

Expect this piece of lore to get retconned as soon as some important writer wants to write a story which would necessitate it.

 

Just because the writers do not decide to inform us of every single piece of lore in the DA universe does not mean that they are "retconing". That term has about as much reliabilty as "Mary Sue" when it comes to a piece of fiction. If you don't like something it's immediately a "MARY SUE!" or "RETCON!" depending on the context.

 

The only real "retcon" in the DA universe that I am familiar with (that is purely a retcon) is the whole Leliana debacle in DA2. Then again, that's also the problem with involving CHOICE in a game, some people are just going to get burned.

 

Hell...it's not like this is Star Wars...    

[DinkyD]

1. That really does not matter in how close they are. He already promised his father and mom he would not tell Alistair where he came from.

2.Alistair tells you all this when you ask him how it was like being a warden.

3.But it did get explained.

4.Who his mother is does not change any detail of treatment of Alistair. It means nothing if he's elf blooded and mage blooded. It;s just more drama. What effects him more is his dragon blood line.

 

Did a promise not to tell him where he came from also included a pledge not to tell him that Maric was concerned about him and that Duncan had kept an eye on him? He could have told him that without letting to much out about his true mother. Of course, both of them did zilch so maybe not mentioning it was a good idea. But Duncan could at least tell him that he knew who was because of his father - at least some honesty could be expected as they were so close?

 

Alistair tells you he knew Duncan prior to his recruitment? When?

 

Of course it changes his how his treatment can the viewed. Both Duncan and Maric pledged to take care of him and although he was treated shoddily at Eamon's and was miserable at the Chantry neither felt it necessary to step in and find him a new home. Maric apparently, found his treatment good enough. Maric comes across as no more concerned than originally, despite his promises, and Duncan comes across as just as negligent.

 

Alistair being the son of a servant and a King was drama enough. And if it means nothing, how is it more dramatic? It just added glitz where none is needed. And as such, comes across as false and contrived.

[Dermain]

Did a promise not to tell him where he came from also included a pledge not to tell him that Maric was concerned about him and that Duncan had kept an eye on him? He could have told him that without letting to much out about his true mother. Of course, both of them did zilch so maybe not mentioning it was a good idea. But Duncan could at least tell him that he knew who was because of his father - at least some honesty could be expected as they were so close?

 

Alistair tells you he knew Duncan prior to his recruitment? When?

 

Of course it changes his how his treatment can the viewed. Both Duncan and Maric pledged to take care of him and although he was treated shoddily at Eamon's and was miserable at the Chantry neither felt it necessary to step in and find him a new home. Maric apparently, found his treatment good enough. Maric comes across as no more concerned than originally, despite his promises, and Duncan comes across as just as negligent.

 

Alistair being the son of a servant and a King was drama enough. And if it means nothing, how is it more dramatic? It just added glitz where none is needed. And as such, comes across as false and contrived.

 

Alistair says at/after Redliffe that Duncan knew that he was Maric's son. 

[DinkyD]

Alistair says at/after Redliffe that Duncan knew that he was Maric's son. 

 

Because Alistair told him. He makes no mention of this when he talks of his recruitment. There was no reason in Origins to suspect Duncan knew prior to this.

 

But:

 

You know, maybe I'm all wrong and you are completely right.

 

Maric was a fantastic father, and Duncan did a great job. Alistair is probably suffering from false memory syndrome and was actually deliriously happy at Redcliff, being a cherished ward of Eamon and watched over benevolently from afar by his doting father. Isolde was just teasing him a bit I suspect.

 

Then he went happily off to the Chantry (how he could tear himself away i don't know) because he was very pious and had the ambition to become a templar. Nothing to do with it being a convenient way to get rid of a possible threat to the stability of the realm.

 

Of course, Alistair remembers all this differently because he is a bit strange. After all, for some bizarre reason he believes he's older than he actually is.

[The Baconer]

As much as I do not care for Fiona, tears are tears. And tears are delicious.

[JasonPogo]

Well color me disappointed.  This is just crappy writing on Gaiders part In My Opinion.  Fiona said at the end of the book she wanted her son to know NOTHING about who his parents were and just have a normal life.  So what did they do?  Stick him with Meric's brother in law and tell him he is Meric's basterd.  Morons....

[leaguer of one]

Because Alistair told him. He makes no mention of this when he talks of his recruitment. There was no reason in Origins to suspect Duncan knew prior to this.

 

But:

 

You know, maybe I'm all wrong and you are completely right.

 

Maric was a fantastic father, and Duncan did a great job. Alistair is probably suffering from false memory syndrome and was actually deliriously happy at Redcliff, being a cherished ward of Eamon and watched over benevolently from afar by his doting father. Isolde was just teasing him a bit I suspect.

 

Then he went happily off to the Chantry (how he could tear himself away i don't know) because he was very pious and had the ambition to become a templar. Nothing to do with it being a convenient way to get rid of a possible threat to the stability of the realm.

 

Of course, Alistair remembers all this differently because he is a bit strange. After all, for some bizarre reason he believes he's older than he actually is.

Alistair never said he told Duncan.

[leaguer of one]

Well color me disappointed.  This is just crappy writing on Gaiders part In My Opinion.  Fiona said at the end of the book she wanted her son to know NOTHING about who his parents were and just have a normal life.  So what did they do?  Stick him with Meric's brother in law and tell him he is Meric's basterd.  Morons....

She wanted the child to not know anything about her not not knowing anything about her and his father.

[leaguer of one]

Did a promise not to tell him where he came from also included a pledge not to tell him that Maric was concerned about him and that Duncan had kept an eye on him? He could have told him that without letting to much out about his true mother. Of course, both of them did zilch so maybe not mentioning it was a good idea. But Duncan could at least tell him that he knew who was because of his father - at least some honesty could be expected as they were so close?

 

Alistair tells you he knew Duncan prior to his recruitment? When?

 

Of course it changes his how his treatment can the viewed. Both Duncan and Maric pledged to take care of him and although he was treated shoddily at Eamon's and was miserable at the Chantry neither felt it necessary to step in and find him a new home. Maric apparently, found his treatment good enough. Maric comes across as no more concerned than originally, despite his promises, and Duncan comes across as just as negligent.

 

Alistair being the son of a servant and a King was drama enough. And if it means nothing, how is it more dramatic? It just added glitz where none is needed. And as such, comes across as false and contrived.

1.We have no Idea what was told to Alistair about Maric so we have no  idea what impact it did to how Alistair grow up.

2.That's not what I mean.

3.Agein, what happen at redcliffe  Eamon fault. Alistair started having that bad treatment because of Isolde .  He was sent to the chantry to become a templer to end that bad treatment from Isolde.

4. It means nothing because it added nothing to the plot in any way. This does not effect the world at large unlike him having dragon blood in him and the ability to wake great dragons.

Really, this a minor thing to have a grip about.

[Hazegurl]

 

No, it's not the same source. Link to  originally a different page that does not even mention that glitch on epilogue page. Regardless, say that it's stated that Conner acts funny when his mom is still alive is a bug. You can't use a bug as a source of what happens.

 

http://dragonage.wik...logue_(Origins)

Eamon 

• If Alistair is king and the Hero is not the chancellor, Eamon will remain in the capital to help him. Teagan will take over the rule of Redcliffe for the time being.
• Otherwise, he will return to Redcliffe to rebuild.

• If both Connor and Isolde are alive, Eamon will say that Connor seems well enough, but Isolde refuses to speak of what happened and has said that she never wants to go back. Eamon thinks he may yet leave the land to Teagan.
• If Connor is dead, Isolde is determined to have another child, and Eamon is happy to oblige her.
• If Isolde is dead, Eamon knows he needs to send Connor to the Circle of Magi, and thinks perhaps his son will become a Grey Warden one day.
• If the PC made a deal with the demon that possessed Connor, Eamon will ask if the Hero has noticed anything strange about the lad, saying he seems quiet.

 

We are arguing two different things from that same site and it doesn't seem to be a bug at all, at least it is not mentioned anywhere on the site as one. I'm pointing to the slides not the dialogue and you're right that Eamon will mention Connor acting strange if the PC makes the deal with the demon. However, in the slides, Connor can get sent to the Magi and pass his Harrowing with the demon link intact provided that you leave his mother alive and take the deal.  If you take the deal any other way he will get sick and vanish. So Eamon can still mention Connor acting strange (cause he's still attached to the demon in some way) but get sent off to the Magi and pass his Harrowing.

 

Anyway, The boy is usually dead in my playthroughs so whatever.

[DinkyD]

Alistair never said he told Duncan.

 

He never said he didn't either. So yes, possibily compatible with both accounts. Doesn't go any distance in answering all the other problems created though.

 

1.We have no Idea what was told to Alistair about Maric so we have no  idea what impact it did to how Alistair grow up.

2.That's not what I mean.

3.Agein, what happen at redcliffe  Eamon fault. Alistair started having that bad treatment because of Isolde .  He was sent to the chantry to become a templer to end that bad treatment from Isolde.

4. It means nothing because it added nothing to the plot in any way. This does not effect the world at large unlike him having dragon blood in him and the ability to wake great dragons.

Really, this a minor thing to have a grip about.

 

 

Yes, what happens at redcliffe is Eamon's fault and Isolde a problem. How does who's fault it is stop Maric stepping in and finding Alistair a new home with a different family? Is Maric oblivious, doesn't care, or agrees sending him to the Chantry is the best solution?

 

Maric seems to have forgotten his son pretty quickly, and this attempt to re-write him into a caring father/loyal husband just doesn't work imho. Furthermore, in a world where everyone is shades of grey why was it even felt necessary - every character is flawed. The fact he cheated on his queen (we only have evidence of the once, perhaps he was crushed by guilt, lots of possible story arcs there) hardly makes him beyond redemption.  Cripes, Loghain has loads of fans. And trying to make Duncan into Alistiar's "god parent" is well - saccharine. Just my opinion.

 

I thought the writing in Origins was top notch, prticularly for a game. It took a fantastic setting, but had a more realistic approach to character backstory and development. Now that seems to be slipping away now they are willing to canonise the novels.

[leaguer of one]

He never said he didn't either. So yes, possibily compatible with both accounts. Doesn't go any distance in answering all the other problems created though.

 

 

 

Yes, what happens at redcliffe is Eamon's fault and Isolde a problem. How does who's fault it is stop Maric stepping in and finding Alistair a new home with a different family? Is Maric oblivious, doesn't care, or agrees sending him to the Chantry is the best solution?

 

Maric seems to have forgotten his son pretty quickly, and this attempt to re-write him into a caring father just doesn't work imho. Furthermore, in a world where everyone is shades of grey why was it even felt necessary - every character is flawed. The fact he cheated on his queen (we only have evidence of the once, perhaps he was crushed by guilt, lots of possible story arcs there) hardly makes him beyond redemption.  Cripes, Loghain has loads of fans. And trying to make Duncan into Alistiar's "god parent" is well - saccharine. Just my opinion.

 

I thought the writing in Origins was top notch, prticularly for a game. It took a fantastic setting, but had a more realistic approach to character backstory and development. Now that seems to be slipping away.

 Maric was well gone by the time any issue were up. Remember the last time Alistair was at redcliffe he was 10. Maric was long gone by then. So you blame him for what happen to Alistair when he was lost at sea?

[leaguer of one]

We are arguing two different things from that same site and it doesn't seem to be a bug at all, at least it is not mentioned anywhere on the site as one. I'm pointing to the slides not the dialogue and you're right that Eamon will mention Connor acting strange if the PC makes the deal with the demon. However, in the slides, Connor can get sent to the Magi and pass his Harrowing with the demon link intact provided that you leave his mother alive and take the deal.  If you take the deal any other way he will get sick and vanish. So Eamon can still mention Connor acting strange (cause he's still attached to the demon in some way) but get sent off to the Magi and pass his Harrowing.

 

Anyway, The boy is usually dead in my playthroughs so whatever.

My point is using the excuse that he is better off dead then save from the demon is baseless. You have options to save him with out killing him.

[Reaverwind]

He never said he didn't either. So yes, possibily compatible with both accounts. Doesn't go any distance in answering all the other problems created though.

 

 

 

Yes, what happens at redcliffe is Eamon's fault and Isolde a problem. How does who's fault it is stop Maric stepping in and finding Alistair a new home with a different family? Is Maric oblivious, doesn't care, or agrees sending him to the Chantry is the best solution?

 

Maric seems to have forgotten his son pretty quickly, and this attempt to re-write him into a caring father/loyal husband just doesn't work imho. Furthermore, in a world where everyone is shades of grey why was it even felt necessary - every character is flawed. The fact he cheated on his queen (we only have evidence of the once, perhaps he was crushed by guilt, lots of possible story arcs there) hardly makes him beyond redemption.  Cripes, Loghain has loads of fans. And trying to make Duncan into Alistiar's "god parent" is well - saccharine. Just my opinion.

 

I thought the writing in Origins was top notch, prticularly for a game. It took a fantastic setting, but had a more realistic approach to character backstory and development. Now that seems to be slipping away.

 

Maric was written as a caring father? Where? He seemed oblivious at best, and was probably long gone by the time Alistair was sent to the Chantry.

[Gorguz]

Maric was written as a caring father? Where? He was seemed oblivious at best, and was probably long gone by the time Alistair was sent to the Chantry.

He wasn't a caring father or a good husband. He wasn't even a proper king or a good commander. He was Alistair mark 0.0.

[Han Shot First]

 I'll just go on pretending Alistair was birthed by Goldanna's mother. That way Loghain's DA:O dialogue about Maric not wanting to acknowledge Alistair for fear of turning Rowan into a concubine, will still make sense. Nothing slays a bad retcon and plot holes quite like head canon. 

 

[DinkyD]

 Maric was well gone by the time any issue were up. Remember the last time Alistair was at redcliffe he was 10. Maric was long gone by then. So you blame him for what happen to Alistair when he was lost at sea?

 

Ok - well you may be right but my understanding iirc, is that Maric has been dead about 5 years at the start of origins? So Alistair was about 15 when he died? This is something I thought i knew but may well be wrong about. If Maric was long gone before Alistair was 10, then Cailan must have been very young when he became King.

 

@ Han Shot First. Don't Forget Alistair agrees with loghain about the time frame as well! Alistair has my head cannon

 

 

edit: According to the wiki, Maric was lost in 9,25. So Alistair was 15

Modifié par DinkyD, 10 juillet 2014 - 04:53 .

[Reaverwind]

 I'll just go on pretending Alistair was birthed by Goldanna's mother. That way Loghain's DA:O dialogue about Maric not wanting to acknowledge Alistair for fear of turning Rowan into a concubine, will still make sense. Nothing slays a bad retcon and plot holes quite like head canon. 

 

 

Has Bioware explicitly stated that the mother is Fiona, and not some other elf?

[leaguer of one]

 I'll just go on pretending Alistair was birthed by Goldanna's mother. That way Loghain's DA:O dialogue about Maric not wanting to acknowledge Alistair for fear of turning Rowan into a concubine, will still make sense. Nothing slays a bad retcon and plot holes quite like head canon. 

 

Then Fiona pops up in dai and their is a quest involving Alistair  finding out she is his mother and everyone is talking about it. That would be hard to ignore.

 

 

[leaguer of one]

Has Bioware explicitly stated that the mother is Fiona, and not some other elf?

Yes. They made it even more clear on twitter.

[leaguer of one]

He wasn't a caring father or a good husband. He wasn't even a proper king or a good commander. He was Alistair mark 0.0.

Alistair already shown he is a good king.

[Han Shot First]

Has Bioware explicitly stated that the mother is Fiona, and not some other elf?

 

I'm not sure to be honest, but either way I think Fiona was the intended.

 

I saw the writing on the wall for this when someone posted that The World of Thedas established Alistair's birth year as 9:10 Dragon, which was the same year Maric had his dalliance with Fiona that produced a son. It also placed Alistair's birth long after Rowan had died, contradicting Loghain in DA:O.