Or maybe the writers write the story they want and not wimper when ever a fan is upset over something.
Seriously, it not very confusing.
Oh please. This is NOT about fans being upset because they didn't like the story the writers wrote. It IS about people being upset that the writers can't keep their own damn story straight.
You don't at all. This is not a batman gambit.
You do, actually. This isn't about Loghain simply not having accurate information. Everything he says on the subject of Alistair's birth indicates his belief that Alistair was conceived and born during Rowan's lifetime, and that he was hidden on that basis alone, to keep Rowan from being humiliated and reduced to a concubine in the eyes of the people.
The only possible explanation for that would be to say not that Loghain simply had inaccurate information, but that he was an outright liar. But that alone wouldn't work because someone, somewhere, would be able to add up the dates of what happened when and figure out that something didn't jive.
The entire story of Origins reads exactly as if Alistair was intended to be the product of Maric's indiscretion. If he turns out to actually be Fiona's son, so be it, but there's no point at all in pretending this was the intention all along when there's a mountain of evidence that proves it to the contrary.
Yes, it can be rationalised more than the rest. I do have to wonder whether Duncan has some code about not conscripting someone he doesn't later put through the joining - I could see that as being the case. He could have conscripted Alistair and then let him go his own way. Perhaps Alistair's desire to be a warden was the deciding factor. Doesn't explain why Duncan wasn't paying attention for 20 years though.
And that Arl Eamon - I've rationalised the age thing by believing the Arl deliberately told Alistair that he was older than he was, so he get his emotional hooks into him by telling him he was the product of adultery, with Eamon's own sister as the injured party. Horrible eh? Somehow Loghain's in on it as well cos of reasons. Add emotional abuse to the list of Eamon's crimes.
Ha. You can add that onto Eamon's list of crimes even without the question of Alistair's age.
Instead of mass posting, couldn't you just add all of those into one or two messages by way of edit?
Guest_Challenge Everything_*
Rowan was dead when Alistair was born. As a door nail. Yes, Loghain was concerned that it would paint a bad picture of her if Maric's relationship with another woman were to be revealed, however, you don't have to be alive to have your reputation ruined.
Perfect example: Joan Crawford.
No chance Maric did sleep with Goldanna's mom and got pergnated and both the child and mom die in child birth?
No chance that Alistair does not know he was born 9:10 and he thinks he's older and was told he was Goldanna's mom's child in place of the real child that died.
And what? Goldanna was still left thinking that the baby was alive, and she was paid off. No need to do that if there is actually a dead baby to show her.
Your own explanations make even LESS sense, sorry. Hence the thing Han said about mental gymnastics.
*Sigh....
https://twitter.com/...585267336142848
"Sorry. Thought it was pretty obvious and widely known. It's never been a secret."
-Mike Laidlaw
I think the point was that that quote doesn't say "Thought it was pretty obvious and widely known that Fiona is Alistair's mother," and in fact it could simply refer to Alistair being elf-blooded, but not necessarily Fiona's son. Which still doesn't make any sense because the idea of Alistair being an elf has always been directly connected with the theory that he was Fiona's son; otherwise there'd be nothing to BE widely known. But it's not true to say that it's never been a secret. I do recall, from years ago, a pointed silence on the issue from the Devs, a refusal to confirm or deny either way, which flies in the face of the idea that Bioware somehow always treated it like common knowledge.
Rowan was dead when Alistair was born. As a door nail. Yes, Loghain was concerned that it would paint a bad picture of her if Maric's relationship with another woman were to be revealed, however, you don't have to be alive to have your reputation ruined.
Perfect example: Joan Crawford.
The woman was several years dead. The idea that the populace would have suddenly viewed her as a concubine is patently ridiculous. Those words from Loghain ONLY make sense if the Queen was alive at the time.
Instead of mass posting, couldn't you just add all of those into one or two messages by way of edit?
Nah. What other way would I have of annoying you?
Nah. What other way would I have of annoying you?
You could go on about talking about bringing ideas and philosophies that don't exist in Thedas into discussions as reasons for why characters or organizations are good/bad or should take certain actions.
You could go on about talking about bringing ideas and philosophies that don't exist in Thedas into discussions as reasons for why characters or organizations are good/bad or should take certain actions.
Sorry what? I don't think we're getting into anything that deep. We just assuming that Bioware hasn't seen fit to change the meaing of basic English words - "cheating" in the context of relationships; "concubine". And so on.
Sorry what? I don't think we're getting into anything that deep. We just assuming that Bioware hasn't seen fit to change the meaing of basic English words - "cheating" in the context of relationships; "concubine". And so on.
Oh, that was just a response to Silfren. We have argued in the past before. 
You could go on about talking about bringing ideas and philosophies that don't exist in Thedas into discussions as reasons for why characters or organizations are good/bad or should take certain actions.
Duly noted. From now on when I feel like pissing you off, I'll be sure to engage in precisely that. 
Sorry what? I don't think we're getting into anything that deep. We just assuming that Bioware hasn't seen fit to change the meaing of basic English words - "cheating" in the context of relationships; "concubine". And so on.
Oh, that was a totally off-topic dig at me, no worries. Like he already said. Hopefully I have caused due annoyance by answering an already-answered post. =)
I am a fan of Alistair and not a fan of Fiona. I hate the thought that Alistair would have to integrate being the son of anOrlesian, Elf, Mage, Grey Warden into what I imagine is a growing sense of identity and confidence as King of Fereldon in my version of event.
But more to the point, in terms of what I have read of Maric he does not strike me as the type who would sleep with women indiscriminately. So who ever Alistair's mother is, I would think it would be someone that Maric genuinely cared about and not simply ameaningless one night stand. We know he genuinely cared about Fiona, but of she is not his mother, than I would be interested in who this serving girl is....
I am a fan of Alistair and not a fan of Fiona. I hate the thought that Alistair would have to integrate being the son of anOrlesian, Elf, Mage, Grey Warden into what I imagine is a growing sense of identity and confidence as King of Fereldon in my version of event.
But more to the point, in terms of what I have read of Maric he does not strike me as the type who would sleep with women indiscriminately. So who ever Alistair's mother is, I would think it would be someone that Maric genuinely cared about and not simply ameaningless one night stand. We know he genuinely cared about Fiona, but of she is not his mother, than I would be interested in who this serving girl is....
Yes. Alistair has enough parental issues without throwing Fiona into the mix.
Now I'm more confused than ever.
Why would Mike Laidlaw think that it was "obvious and widely known"?
What percentage of the player base does Bioware think actually reads the tie-in material? I don't remember my copy of Origins Ultimate Edition coming with a copy of The Calling. Was a voucher inside saying "order this to find out what you've been misled about" that I missed? It quite clearly wasn't the Ultimate Edition.
This is very dismissive of those that actually just play their games imho. Aren't we their major customers?
It confirms my earlier assertion - Bioware considers themselves a publishing house that does tie-in games.
As I indicated previously, the lore that an Elf Human coupling results in a human appearing offspring, I always thought was common knowledge from the games and is played out in DA 2 with Feynriel
This debate about plot consistency just misses out the most essential part of Bioware's problem: Bioware cannot get timelines right. They b0rk them in every sequel they do, DA or otherwise. Just like how we need teleportation or time-travel to make Anders even being in Kirkwall for DA2 to work, we need actual timetravel to make Alistair work as Fiona's son. That's not a retcon, that's not Bioware mixing up the lore, that's Bioware's tendency to literally throw out numbers for dates without thinking too hard about it.
If Gaider claims the scene never even happen then how can it define him? Therefore my point is that I see no sense in pretending it did happen or ignoring it entirely whenever I want to play the game. If I do the quest, it happened. I never said it wasn't defining. I said it is an important scene that defines him to the point of changing the outcome for the character so to claim it was a mistake and that it can be ignored is something I don't agree with. Which is why I ignore the books entirely and consider the game canon. If I read one of the books and it doesn't interfere with my canon play through then I have no problems accepting it, provided that I like it. Overall, the games mean far more to me than the books.
What do you mean DG claims the scene never happened? Do you have a quote from DG that says that the content where we go to Goldana in DA:O was some kind of mass hallucination?
Because your dissatisfaction and Bioware b0rking the timeline does not mean events from DA:O didn't happen.
Guest_Faerunner_*
This debate about plot consistency just misses out the most essential part of Bioware's problem: Bioware cannot get timelines right. They b0rk them in every sequel they do, DA or otherwise. Just like how we need teleportation or time-travel to make Anders even being in Kirkwall for DA2 to work, we need actual timetravel to make Alistair work as Fiona's son. That's not a retcon, that's not Bioware mixing up the lore, that's Bioware's tendency to literally throw out numbers for dates without thinking too hard about it.
A) No, TV tropes link! How could you do this to me? My afternoon... 
I think it's more that Bioware just isn't concerned for this level of detail. They tend to be really high concept when they write, and you can see it reflected in pretty much everything that they do, choice & consequence, reactivity, etc. To them, the important detail is that Alistair is Fiona's son, and they can use that when/if relevant in the future, Eamon raised him as a kind of absentee father-figure, etc. The fact that the timeline doesn't add up isn't an issue because the timeline is more of an afterthought.
That being said, I think people are too harsh on Bioware for timeline issues. A game has to go through a lot of changes to get out there door, and the script has to be written and re-written.
What do you mean DG claims the scene never happened? Do you have a quote from DG that says that the content where we go to Goldana in DA:O was some kind of mass hallucination?
Because your dissatisfaction and Bioware b0rking the timeline does not mean events from DA:O didn't happen.
Someone in this thread mentioned that Gaider stated on the old forum that the Goldana quest happened due to lack of communication between the departments. Not shifting thru 30+ pages for it. If I or they are wrong then so be it, no big deal. I simply stated that if the quest didn't happen due to the books interfering with the game then I'll go with the game instead of either ignoring the entire quest or head canoning some reason as to why it happened.
There's a show only Bioware post button at the top of the topic. 
Guest_Challenge Everything_*
The woman was several years dead. The idea that the populace would have suddenly viewed her as a concubine is patently ridiculous. Those words from Loghain ONLY make sense if the Queen was alive at the time.
Loghain was madly in love with Rowan. He was probably overreacting. That may have been his interpretation of why Maric did what he did, even if that was not the real reason.
Or..... And bear with me here people.... It might be a retcon! (que dramatic music)
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