Random destruction might not be all they're doing. Suppose they're after what's happening in DA:I - fade tears. What's the best way to tear the Fade? Death, on an absolutely massive scale.
Then why didn't anything like this happen during the First Blight?
I suspect the various pantheons are or were spirit hierarchies and possibly some exceptionally successful and unique abominations and such, personally. Some of them may have been one-to-one correlations with spirits (the elves?), others may be mis-remembered collectives who have been grouped together in the aftermath.
One day, I hope we get a glimpse at Bioware's deep lore wiki.
Come on, Chinese hackers...
I would kill to see that Wiki. I need all the lore!
Random destruction might not be all they're doing. Suppose they're after what's happening in DA:I - fade tears. What's the best way to tear the Fade? Death, on an absolutely massive scale.
Which is what the First Blight was before the wardens figured how to get the archdemon to stay dead. So, for opening Fade Tears, those blights weren't effective.
It's unclear if the Old Gods actually want to become Archdemons. Both Morrigan and the Chant of Light seem to imply they don't. But we know from the Architect that even "untainted" Old Gods are somehow connected to the darkspawn. You can't really say they are ghouls. They are the very source of the song that drives ghouls mad and controls darkspawn. Blights are a the very result of their leadership of the darkspawn, not the reverse. Not only that, but Archdemon blood is actually much more potent than darkspawn blood when it comes to the spreading the taint. That's why the Warden's need to use it in the Joining.
Then why didn't anything like this happen during the First Blight?
True. You'd think that with a hundred year Blight, the Veil would be shot to hell.
If that was really the case, why would these patient schemers who've waited for thousands of years for freedom do nothing but charge up to the surface, smash things and kill people? Was random destruction really all they wanted? Even after the archdemons started dying?
It wasn't necessarily random: the First Blight in particular could have been a deliberate genocide attempt on Thedas. Spread the Blight and the hivemind, kill the individualists, and rebuild after. There's no particular non-moral reason to not try and destroy the surface if you're already in the mindset of thinking ruling the Darkspawn is a good thing. The goal is to replace the inviduals, not create a new society in parallel to them.
The Old Gods aren't necessarily patient schemers either- their entrapment is likely not voluntary, or one they can alter at will. There's not necessarily anything random about their destruction either: the Blight's spread is systematic, while the Blight as a conflict is a war with unknown circumstances and pressures/priorities for each Old God as it is integrated into and dominates the collective.
This is just a possible aspect, of course. I think it's more likely a case of gone horribly right: that the Old Gods wanted to dominate a hive mind, but that the Blight corrupts them as well in the process. Rather than changing others to suit them, they also get changed in ways they didn't anticipate.
Not that they necessarily mind it- there's nothing to suggest that the Old Gods are benevolent or regretful in any particular way. But even if the Blight wasn't intentional, it wasn't necessarily accidental either.
Then why didn't anything like this happen during the First Blight?
There might be something special about DA:I. How the Fade Tears got started is presumably the most massive spoiler of the game.
It's unclear if the Old Gods actually want to become Archdemons. Both Morrigan and the Chant of Light seem to imply they don't. But we know from the Architect that even "untainted" Old Gods are somehow connected to the darkspawn. You can't really say they are ghouls. They are the very source of the song that drives ghouls mad and controls darkspawn. Blights are a the very result of their leadership of the darkspawn, not the reverse. Not only that, but Archdemon blood is actually much more potent than darkspawn blood when it comes to the spreading the taint. That's why the Warden's need to use it in the Joining.
I never got the sense from Morrigan's conversation that the change wasn't consensual, just that the DR was the only way to save the essence of the OG rather than consign it to death. She's using the taint as a conduit for the essence of the OG - that doesn't quite seem like a way to cure it if it was infected, no?
Then why didn't anything like this happen during the First Blight?
I agree it's probably not the cause. But then, we don't know what the end-state effect of a Blighted world would be like. The Blight is a big unknown to most spirits- all the ones we know of, at least.
I've been interested in the lyrium angle as a possible explanation. The Dwarven mythology is pretty understated in the forums, but it's probably as important as any other. Lyrium is definitely a big question mark in the relationship between Thedas and the Fade- it's tied to the Dwarven mythos and the Stone, but those are pretty absent from the known lore of the Fade.
There might be something special about DA:I. How the Fade Tears got started is presumably the most massive spoiler of the game.
I never got the sense from Morrigan's conversation that the change wasn't consensual, just that the DR was the only way to save the essence of the OG rather than consign it to death. She's using the taint as a conduit for the essence of the OG - that doesn't quite seem like a way to cure it if it was infected, no?
I think that has more to do with the nature of the Archdemon's death-avoidance trick than the cure. The taint is to get the soul where you want it: the ritual cleans it up.
It's unclear if the Old Gods actually want to become Archdemons. Both Morrigan and the Chant of Light seem to imply they don't. But we know from the Architect that even "untainted" Old Gods are somehow connected to the darkspawn. You can't really say they are ghouls. They are the very source of the song that drives ghouls mad and controls darkspawn. Blights are a the very result of their leadership of the darkspawn, not the reverse. Not only that, but Archdemon blood is actually much more potent than darkspawn blood when it comes to the spreading the taint. That's why the Warden's need to use it in the Joining.
Old Gods are the source of the song either way. They communicated telepathically to the magisters, after all; somehow, the darkspawn can home in on their minds. But that seems much more like something the darkspawn were made for than something inherent in the Old Gods. And while the archdemons are atypically powerful ghouls, they still are ghouls, in that they're living creatures corrupted by the taint. Broodmothers are also ghouls, yet are just as vital for darkspawn existence.
It wasn't necessarily random: the First Blight in particular could have been a deliberate genocide attempt on Thedas. Spread the Blight and the hivemind, kill the individualists, and rebuild after. There's no particular non-moral reason to not try and destroy the surface if you're already in the mindset of thinking ruling the Darkspawn is a good thing. The goal is to replace the inviduals, not create a new society in parallel to them.
The Old Gods aren't necessarily patient schemers either- their entrapment is likely not voluntary, or one they can alter at will. There's not necessarily anything random about their destruction either: the Blight's spread is systematic, while the Blight as a conflict is a war with unknown circumstances and pressures/priorities for each Old God as it is integrated into and dominates the collective.
This is just a possible aspect, of course. I think it's more likely a case of gone horribly right: that the Old Gods wanted to dominate a hive mind, but that the Blight corrupts them as well in the process. Rather than changing others to suit them, they also get changed in ways they didn't anticipate.
Not that they necessarily mind it- there's nothing to suggest that the Old Gods are benevolent or regretful in any particular way. But even if the Blight wasn't intentional, it wasn't necessarily accidental either.
But the Blights have, by at least number five, been shown to be very poor ways of doing this; each seems to fall more quickly than the last, with the archdemons being presumably permanently killed. One would think that if the Old Gods were deliberately attracting the darkspawn to them, they could just stop now.
There might be something special about DA:I. How the Fade Tears got started is presumably the most massive spoiler of the game.
I never got the sense from Morrigan's conversation that the change wasn't consensual, just that the DR was the only way to save the essence of the OG rather than consign it to death. She's using the taint as a conduit for the essence of the OG - that doesn't quite seem like a way to cure it if it was infected, no?
She mentions that she wants "the essence of the Old Gods that was and not the dark forces that corrupted it."
There might be something special about DA:I. How the Fade Tears got started is presumably the most massive spoiler of the game.
Probably. The motivations for the tear, just what it's meant to distract us from, are also probably epic in scope and scale.
I do agree with Xil's hunch that the First Blight wasn't about a Veil Tear. Unless it was a really, really convoluted gambit to weaken the foundations with an apocalyptic event, but the later conditions weren't able to be met, I think the Blights themselves are unrelated. The Old Gods making a power play at worldy power via the Golden City. Why? Well, I think the idea of them being spirit-abomination-things that want to dominate and 'live' through the collective would be a suitable demonic motivation, and could explain the demons associated with their altars. But I already mentioned that.
Old Gods are the source of the song either way. They communicated telepathically to the magisters, after all; somehow, the darkspawn can home in on their minds. But that seems much more like something the darkspawn were made for than something inherent in the Old Gods. And while the archdemons are atypically powerful ghouls, they still are ghouls, in that they're living creatures corrupted by the taint. Broodmothers are also ghouls, yet are just as vital for darkspawn existence.
But they are not just ghouls. Ghouls are controled by darkspawn. The Old Gods are the source of ghouls and darkspawn are the way they are at all. Anders' theory about the origin of the darkspawn (that they were a creation of the Old Gods) in Legacy may have been wrong, but it's actually a good theory based on what he saw in Awakening. They seem to have a connection to the taint that other living creatures don't have.
I think that has more to do with the nature of the Archdemon's death-avoidance trick than the cure. The taint is to get the soul where you want it: the ritual cleans it up.
Seeing the quote from JM Orion that looks to be the case. Fair enough. I'm partial to your theory of gone horridly right in that case.
She mentions that she wants "the essence of the Old Gods that was and not the dark forces that corrupted it."
Fair enough. I didn't remember that line. Thank you for the reminder.
But the Blights have, by at least number five, been shown to be very poor ways of doing this; each seems to fall more quickly than the last, with the archdemons being presumably permanently killed. One would think that if the Old Gods were deliberately attracting the darkspawn to them, they could just stop now.
They're falling faster because Thedas has gotten better at stopping them. The length and damage of the First was a result of the search of how to kill one, but that was the largest obstacle.
I don't see any particular reason why the Old Gods are deliberately attracting the darkspawn to them either: it could be an involuntary consequence of their imprisonment. They aren't even necessarily 'awake': the Old Gods contacted the Magisters through dreams in the fade, not through simple telepathy. They could, quite literally, be snoring through the Stone.
Edit for addition:
The point I'm making is that the Old Gods dying off via the Blights doesn't really imply the Darkspawn weren't intentional. The creation can be intentional while the continuation is consequence that they couldn't stop if they tried.
If there's anything to suggest that the Old Gods aren't under their own control once corrupted, it's the fact that they immediately start on the warpath rather than bide time to organize, build the hoard, and most of all find and corrupt another Old God for redundancy. The effect of the Taint could well drive them to the Blight even if it isn't the strategically best course of action. There's a degree of impatience there.
Which says nothing about what their original intent was, mind you- just that it went horribly right.
On an entirely unrelated note, because it would seem the Blights could continue forever if the ArchDemons just flew in the air and never joined the battle, who else has wondered if the gryphon extinction might have been an unnatural occurrence?
I don't see any particular reason why the Old Gods are deliberately attracting the darkspawn to them either: it could be an involuntary consequence of their imprisonment. They aren't even necessarily 'awake': the Old Gods contacted the Magisters through dreams in the fade, not through simple telepathy. They could, quite literally, be snoring through the Stone.
Indeed. It seems to be an involuntary call. Similar also to how Cory was unconsciously calling Wardens while still dreaming.
Yeah, I got the impression that the song was an unconscious call for freedom and the Darkspawn were the unexpected and unwelcome answer.
I agree.
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
I'd like to add that just about every creation myth (if you want to call it that), Dwarven and Qunari being exceptions, mention that at one point the physical world and the Fade were one plane. This also ties in with the Chantry's version of the Maker's First Children. I've suspected that whatever caused the Golden/Black City debacle is also responsible for what sundered the Fade from the mortal plane.
All I know is that if a Ghost Child tells me i need to make a choice, im throwing the game out of the window.
Would you prefer green, blue, or red magic? 
I'd like to add that just about every creation myth (if you want to call it that), Dwarven and Qunari being exceptions, mention that at one point the physical world and the Fade were one plane. This also ties in with the Chantry's version of the Maker's First Children. I've suspected that whatever caused the Golden/Black City debacle is also responsible for what sundered the Fade from the mortal plane.
Yavana too spoke of a time "before the Veil". So perhaps whatever raised the Veil also created the Black City, to perhaps trap something within the realm of dreams.
Yavana too spoke of a time "before the Veil". So perhaps whatever raised the Veil also created the Black City, to perhaps trap something within the realm of dreams.
That's a scary way to phrase it. Especially since I already suspect the Fade to be a sort of colletive unconsiousness.
Yavana too spoke of a time "before the Veil". So perhaps whatever raised the Veil also created the Black City, to perhaps trap something within the realm of dreams.
It'd be so awesome if there is actually something trapped inside the Black City.
Scary? How so? I have always kinda theorized that the Fade was almost made as a supernatural prison of sorts, with the Black City being maximum security. Whoever raised the Veil locked away something in the City.That's a scary way to phrase it. Especially since I already suspect the Fade to be a sort of colletive unconsiousness.
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