159 réponses à ce sujet

[Roar Hilmarsen]

Greetings Dragon age fans and developers alike

I got an issue at hand with the previous titles that id like to share with all of you to hear your thoughts, i havent found much on the topic it self and i figured id bring it up to you.

The issue is Lockpicking.   

The problem i have had with lockpicking in previous games is that i HAVE to have a rogue in my party to be able to unlock chests. Now purely from an RP perspective i guess a rogue is more likely to be the one most skilled at this, but i feel like its kind of a nuisance to HAVE to have a rogue in the party at almost all points. Also in some starting areas there are chests and maybe doors that are not accessable to my warrior or mage. I am hoping to se a change to this in the upcoming game (needless to say im very excited for that). 

Now in order to solve the Roleplaying aspect, maybe a good idea would be to make Rogues have a passive that makes them unlock higher tier chests before other classes through having a bonus in a certain skill or something in the lines of that. Or make a social thing out of the whole lockpicking / trapfinding part of the game. through having a chat with rogues around the world or in your party,  having them teach you this skill.

what are your thoughts on this? what will it be like in the upcoming game?

 

Hope to se some replys to this 

Cheers

[Jawzzus]

They've already said they are keeping it to rogues only since it fits with their skills the most.  Even though BG had lock bash, they aren't bringing it back either.

[Fast Jimmy]

Interestingly, even though I am the type of player who would bring argue regardless, DA2 had the design thg nothing if any significant value was ever locked behind a chest. Yet it still doesn't shake the feeling that a player will be missing something vital if they did not bring someone to pick said locks.

There is always the XP bonus, of course... but there's also an XP bonus for disabling traps, yet I rarely see people complain about needing to bring a rogue to disable traps (although this could easily be because many people lump the two activities together).


While I'd like more mechanics like strength checks for bashing doors and chests, a more utilitarian magic for Mages (like unlocking lock spells), I do respect that only thieves can pick a lock. Otherwise, they really just become dual wielding/archer warriors.

[Roar Hilmarsen]

well the thing that sets rogues apart is the stealth and the control, a dualwielding warrior is more of a barbarian looking berzerker or something (atleast how i se it). but even tho there might be a Optimal party, your loot should not be "punished" for not having a rogue, dont you think?

[Devtek]

Well, if you hate lockpicking...every class type has their own out of combat skill now. Warriors can bash down walls and mages can energize things which repair things.

[Fast Jimmy]

well the thing that sets rogues apart is the stealth and the control, a dualwielding warrior is more of a barbarian looking berzerker or something (atleast how i se it). but even tho there might be a Optimal party, your loot should not be "punished" for not having a rogue, dont you think?

 

If rogues are the often weakest combat class (as is the case for systems like D&D), shouldn't you be rewarded for having one in your party (making your party weaker, but more prepared)?

That's the concept behind rogues - you need them because what they do (sneak, detect traps, disarm locks, charm the pants off of people). This whole concept of "every class must be equal in combat" is a terrible evolution brought about by MMO's. 

 

So, yes... I guess I am saying you should be punished. Because you are building your party for either solely for combat or role-playing reasons. Which means you forgo benefits of being practical and building your party to be the most prepared for any situation it can be. Not that this is WRONG... but you have to be prepared to pay the price for how a party is built. 

[Roar Hilmarsen]

not talking about beeing equal in combat (directly).

But indirectly beeing weakened cause of the loot deny.only cause i cannot learn to pick locks (i did bring a rogue with me in both DA1 and 2 - archer both times) and it went fine, but not the way i want it, not my style of play.which mostly cripples my gameplay.

Also the rogue's personality might not be what i want with me either (not saying they are badly made, i just want someone else) but im beeing forced to bring a character only based off the fact that i cannot help my self from exploring and getting to all them chests. If gold and loot was either a lesser meaningful thing in the game (which they are not, and i hope it remains that way - loot is awesome) then id skip having a rogue with me.

 

when it comes to the whole contentblock, i sincerly hope a mage can only create shortcuts with their repair ability. 

 

This might also not be an issue to some players if they bring rogue reguardless of having stealth, this just means you can put your skillpoints elsewere for example, but im willing to put points in to learning lockpicking for my warrior or mage in the party.

 

and when it comes down to roleplay it can go both ways, either you feel lockpicking belongs to rogue characters. or you feel like most people can Learn practical skills. and i believe in the last one, which is the main issue at hand.

[Roar Hilmarsen]

They've already said they are keeping it to rogues only since it fits with their skills the most.  Even though BG had lock bash, they aren't bringing it back either.

 

But if they have said that they wont bring lockbashing or anything of the likes in to the game, and limiting it down to rogues to open locks, etc. then i guess thats the answer i was looking for. 

 

tho in my opinion it sucks

[BadgerladDK]

The need to always bring a rogue is an annoying fantasy game trope, in a genre that's so ripe with them it can be almost comical. It is what it is, though, so I guess I'll bring one until someone manages to make a lockbash mod. Installing that (and the extra dog slot) really was the best mod I got out of DAO.

[Roar Hilmarsen]

Yes, RPG's take pride in the customisation and freedom you have, but it sure does set a hard restriction on who to bring with you.

Sure i can bring 4 warriors, if i like to but ill not be able to repair bridges or open chests/locks for additonal content. there is easy fixes to this imo, you can learn lockpicking without it breaking roleplay, and you can for example, pay a mage in the area to fix the bridge...

[PsychoBlonde]

That's the concept behind rogues - you need them because what they do (sneak, detect traps, disarm locks, charm the pants off of people). This whole concept of "every class must be equal in combat" is a terrible evolution brought about by MMO's. 

 

Not really.  In Pen and Paper you ALWAYS have the option to try novel methods.  Heck, one of my prized items has always been an adamantine dagger or similar simply because it ignores hardness--given enough patience you can make a hole in ANYTHING with it.  I have seen groups dig tunnels to avoid traps, fill traps in with monster corpses (a basically unlimited resource), use summoned monsters or undead to TRIGGER traps, disintegrate locked doors, etc. etc. etc.

And if rogues are supposed to compensate with their combat disabilities with sneaking, trapping, and opening locks, why are there wizard spells entitled Invisibility, Silence 15' radius, and Knock?  Knock opens ALL locks, INCLUDING magically-held ones that cannot be picked by a rogue.  Heck, Clerics get a spell entitled "Find Traps".  A wizard with Knock, Silence and Invisibility is FAR more effective than a rogue--the spells are perfect and the Rogue might fail their roll.  That and rogues get combat bennies like Backstab, so clearly they're not just meant to be *universally* weaker in combat in exchange for being the only class who can disarm a trap without setting it off.  That's a bit of a stretch.

 

As for Inquisition--I generally prefer a "balanced" type party, so this kind of "separate but equal" gameplay where everybody can do something different is okay with me, I guess.  The locks only REALLY bothered me because they put them in areas where unless you were PLAYING a rogue, you could never open that box.  THAT is what annoys me.  If I have the OPTION to bring a rogue to an area regardless of what class I chose to play, heck, lock EVERYTHING up for all I care.  This is one of the reasons why I never played a Warrior in Origins.  I got fed up with all the locked boxes in the Origin area.  That and it really pissed me off because there's a collection quest in the game where you collect love letters and one of them is in Eamon's mansion in Denerim.  Since you lose all your party members when you enter that area, it was impossible to open the locked chest and finish that quest unless you, personally, were a rogue.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

If rogues are the often weakest combat class (as is the case for systems like D&D), shouldn't you be rewarded for having one in your party (making your party weaker, but more prepared)?

That's the concept behind rogues - you need them because what they do (sneak, detect traps, disarm locks, charm the pants off of people). This whole concept of "every class must be equal in combat" is a terrible evolution brought about by MMO's. 

 

So, yes... I guess I am saying you should be punished. Because you are building your party for either solely for combat or role-playing reasons. Which means you forgo benefits of being practical and building your party to be the most prepared for any situation it can be. Not that this is WRONG... but you have to be prepared to pay the price for how a party is built. 

 

Agreed. It would be better to have distinct classes. It makes sense lore-wise as well. Most mages do not have time to learn to be warrior or rogues. Most rogues cannot learn to be mages, very few could be warriors (Loghain ?). Most warriors cannot be mages, very few could be rogues. 

 

This is not Elder Scrolls where everyone starts off with access to magic, stealth and warrior skills and can use their mana, stamina and health. This is Dragon Age. However, Sandal's prophecy might change that...Who knows ? 

[Wulfram]

That's the concept behind rogues - you need them because what they do (sneak, detect traps, disarm locks, charm the pants off of people). This whole concept of "every class must be equal in combat" is a terrible evolution brought about by MMO's. 

 

The old design of rogues was rubbish, at least in CRPGs.  They only really justified their existence through dealing with traps and locks - but the traps and locks only existed really to justify the rogue's existence.  And the locks and traps gameplay was boring as hell, anyway - you just click on them to get the rogue to deal with them and that's about it.

 

I mean, it didn't do too much damage to the gameplay in a 6 man party all controlled by the PC, but it was still kind of rubbish.

[Fast Jimmy]

The old design of rogues was rubbish, at least in CRPGs.  They only really justified their existence through dealing with traps and locks - but the traps and locks only existed really to justify the rogue's existence.  And the locks and traps gameplay was boring as hell, anyway - you just click on them to get the rogue to deal with them and that's about it.
 
I mean, it didn't do too much damage to the gameplay in a 6 man party all controlled by the PC, but it was still kind of rubbish.

If you consider "mechanics besides combat" rubbish, then I might agree with you. I don't.

[disgruntled-gamer]

No game has ever done this right IMO even Skyrims lock picking mini game got boring after a few levels.  I honestly don’t know what to do to make it interesting.

[Devtek]

No game has ever done this right IMO even Skyrims lock picking mini game got boring after a few levels.  I honestly don’t know what to do to make it interesting.

 

Locks are built to keep people out of the thing that is locked.  Why would you make a lock that is fun to circumvent

[In Exile]

If you consider "mechanics besides combat" rubbish, then I might agree with you. I don't.

 

You can value out of combat abilities a great deal while still thinking the execution of an entire class as nothing more than out of combat utility to be a terrible idea, especially in a game where 60% of the time you're in combat. It turns into 3 characters plus dead weight (otherwise known as the Romanceable Sonic Screwdriver). 

[disgruntled-gamer]

Locks are built to keep people out of the thing that is locked.  Why would you make a lock that is fun to circumvent

 

ok point but than it usualy just leads me to hitting the auto button or throwing a spell at it.

[windzero]

Interestingly, even though I am the type of player who would bring argue regardless, DA2 had the design thg nothing if any significant value was ever locked behind a chest. Yet it still doesn't shake the feeling that a player will be missing something vital if they did not bring someone to pick said locks.

There is always the XP bonus, of course... but there's also an XP bonus for disabling traps, yet I rarely see people complain about needing to bring a rogue to disable traps (although this could easily be because many people lump the two activities together).


While I'd like more mechanics like strength checks for bashing doors and chests, a more utilitarian magic for Mages (like unlocking lock spells), I do respect that only thieves can pick a lock. Otherwise, they really just become dual wielding/archer warriors.

Well done sir, I couldn't have said it better.

I'd rather have bashing locks with strength or bashing locks with magic (e.g. fireball,stonefist). Btw, not every Rogue could pick any lock in DA:O and DA2 they need to have high Cunning in order to do that and there are nothing essential behind those locked door besides few xp,gold and some common to rare equipment. IIRC, in DA:O there's also nothing really significant behind locked door (main story wise).

[Sylvius the Mad]

No game has ever done this right IMO even Skyrims lock picking mini game got boring after a few levels.  I honestly don’t know what to do to make it interesting.

I recall really enjoying Wizardry 8's lockpicking minigame, but I'm not sure a minigame is the way to do it.  I think Id's prefer a DAO/NWN style of lockpicking, where it's a simple check against your skill.

[metatheurgist]

The old design of rogues was rubbish, at least in CRPGs.  They only really justified their existence through dealing with traps and locks - but the traps and locks only existed really to justify the rogue's existence.  And the locks and traps gameplay was boring as hell, anyway - you just click on them to get the rogue to deal with them and that's about it.

Which is why if they insist on having "action" RPGs they should just remove the "Rogue" class and make Lockpicking an open skill.

[Fast Jimmy]

I recall really enjoying Wizardry 8's lockpicking minigame, but I'm not sure a minigame is the way to do it.  I think Id's prefer a DAO/NWN style of lockpicking, where it's a simple check against your skill.

Return to Krondor also had an interesting mechanic where the player would need to use different tools and skills to properly identify what types of locks would need what tools and if there were any traps to disable. Then, the skill to the character determined the success of these actions, such that a low skill character could fail even if the player made all the right moves, or a you skill character could still succeed if the player used the wrong tools. And there was also a button to Autoresolve the task and determine the entire task by a skill roll.

I agree I'm not sure if a mini-game is the best way to do this, but people complain about non-combat skills being boring if you don't do some type of gameplay. So it's a bit of a conundrum.

[Fast Jimmy]

Which is why if they insist on having "action" RPGs they should just remove the "Rogue" class and make Lockpicking an open skill.

I wouldn't be against this. If they could truly differentiate the Mage and non-Mage experiences with this model and offer a wide variety of options and skills for each class that could make drastically different characters, despite being the same "class." But, on the other hand, I don't see Bioware doing that anytime soon.