159 réponses à ce sujet

[Ulnarv]

Zevran wasn't exactly lying. He can actually open some locks at that stage: the very easy ones that give 5 xp for opening them. He was just exaggerating his skill. A lot...

[Lady Luminous]

Zevran wasn't exactly lying. He can actually open some locks at that stage: the very easy ones that give 5 xp for opening them. He was just exaggerating his skill. A lot...

 

I just want to smack him upside his stupid head for leading me on. 

[Ulnarv]

I just want to smack him upside his stupid head for leading me on. 

 

If you're a mage you can fireball him. I did that with Alistair sometimes. 

[Lady Luminous]

If you're a mage you can fireball him. I did that with Alistair sometimes. 

 

That's brilliant. I may have to. 

[schall_und_rauch]

If you consider "mechanics besides combat" rubbish, then I might agree with you. I don't.

I think riddle mechanics can be fun. Conversation mechanics can be fun. Exploration mechanics and hidden stuff can be fun. The gauntlet was a lot of fun. Applying stuff you learned in the lore is fun. Deus Ex or Planetscape: Torment have buttloads of fun mechanics that are not linked to combat.

However, a mechanic "click on a point: if you have character class x in your party, you win, otheriwse, you lose" is not my idea of fun.

 

So, yeah, bringing a rogue just to disarm traps and pick locks is a horrible mechanic in my eyes.

[Magdalena11]

 

I think riddle mechanics can be fun. Conversation mechanics can be fun. Exploration mechanics and hidden stuff can be fun. The gauntlet was a lot of fun. Applying stuff you learned in the lore is fun. Deus Ex or Planetscape: Torment have buttloads of fun mechanics that are not linked to combat.

However, a mechanic "click on a point: if you have character class x in your party, you win, otheriwse, you lose" is not my idea of fun.

 

So, yeah, bringing a rogue just to disarm traps and pick locks is a horrible mechanic in my eyes.

 

If it helps, think of it this way.  There is no story mode.  Everyone is going to experience combat to some degree, whether they enjoy it or not.  Players who enjoy combat see this as fair and sensible.  People who actually dislike it realize that it's part of the game and if they don't like it enough, they simply stop playing.

 

Making combat optional would cheapen the experience for players that actually look forward to it, because they're being told that the game experience they enjoy most is expendable.  After all, you shouldn't be forced to bring a character along who's best at melee since the fights are now something you can opt out of.

[schall_und_rauch]

If it helps, think of it this way.  There is no story mode.  Everyone is going to experience combat to some degree, whether they enjoy it or not. 

 

But I do enjoy combat. Very much so. I also enjoy hard fights, as long as they are tactical, not so much reaction-based.

 

My point was that there is other non-combat activity that can be made fun as well, if it is well made. However, I don't think the lockpicking activty is particularly well crafted.

[Realmzmaster]

 

I think riddle mechanics can be fun. Conversation mechanics can be fun. Exploration mechanics and hidden stuff can be fun. The gauntlet was a lot of fun. Applying stuff you learned in the lore is fun. Deus Ex or Planetscape: Torment have buttloads of fun mechanics that are not linked to combat.

However, a mechanic "click on a point: if you have character class x in your party, you win, otheriwse, you lose" is not my idea of fun.

 

So, yeah, bringing a rogue just to disarm traps and pick locks is a horrible mechanic in my eyes.

 

 

 

If all a gamer does is bring along a rogue to disarm traps or pick locks then they are choosing not to learn how to use the rogue class or the actual rogues to its full potential.That is a choice

[Magdalena11]

The rogue ability that I hope makes a comeback is the ability to pick pockets.  It steams me up big time when those DA2 assassins can steal my potions but theirs are off-limits.  To make matters worse, the stolen potions aren't in their inventory when you loot the body.  Besides, stealing during combat is a lot of fun.  My last rogue warden picked nearly every pocket in Ferelden and Orzammar, but not the archdemon's, for story reasons.

[Roar Hilmarsen]

The way I view lock bash is that it rewards players for saying they shouldn't have to need certain skills to win.  They're right.  Without mages there would be no heal spell and without warriors a party is going to be at a disadvantage in combat.  If choosing to play without a rogue means the contents of a few chests is unabailable, I can't see why that's a game-breaking imbalance.

Can be argued that if you put heal on a mage you put your self at a disadvantage because the pots in for example origins was spammable and alot better then heal, so you basicly lose out on damage and the fight takes longer. we are talking about An issue that does not involve combat directly. its the opening of locked doors and chests, which leads to loot, gold and experiance (from unlocking them and maybe creeps behind doors). my argument is to make it universal for everyone to open them, one way or another without beeing at a big disadvantage towards other classes. and let the developers focus on the combat aspect of the game to differanciate the classes instead of nuisances of locks to do the job. 

[Roar Hilmarsen]

If all a gamer does is bring along a rogue to disarm traps or pick locks then they are choosing not to learn how to use the rogue class or the actual rogues to its full potential.That is a choice

Not only are you forced to bring him/her along to open stuff, that NOONE else can, but you have to learn a different playstyle and play the game a way that you may end up NOT liking. there are other options in the game (mage and warrior) so why not just let them open the locks (which serve as a barrier to a rogueless party)??

 

the fact of the matter is that everyone, no matter how well designed a rogue is, just doesnt have the right feeling towards that class. we WANT to play soomething else, out of our own selfish or stupid reasons. but we CANNOT because the game is made so that if you dont bring a rogue you miss out of on content. be it small or big, monetary or experiancewise, or just a simple annoyance. we still HAVE to bring a rogue. *sadface*

[Icy Magebane]

Not only are you forced to bring him/her along to open stuff, that NOONE else can, but you have to learn a different playstyle and play the game a way that you may end up NOT liking. there are other options in the game (mage and warrior) so why not just let them open the locks (which serve as a barrier to a rogueless party)??

 

the fact of the matter is that everyone, no matter how well designed a rogue is, just doesnt have the right feeling towards that class. we WANT to play soomething else, out of our own selfish or stupid reasons. but we CANNOT because the game is made so that if you dont bring a rogue you miss out of on content. be it small or big, monetary or experiancewise, or just a simple annoyance. we still HAVE to bring a rogue. *sadface*

Would you be okay with not bringing a rogue if say... we could grind for exp (impossible in DA:O and DA2), and we could earn enough money that we didn't need to worry about buying the "wrong" items?  For example, most of the good items in DA:O cost 80-100 gold or more.  IMO that was unreasonable, because you could only buy a few elite items and if you bought the wrong thing, too bad, money is limited.  But if prices were lower or you didn't have to worry about picking up every coin you could just to make ends meet... would you still care about locked chests?

[Realmzmaster]

Not only are you forced to bring him/her along to open stuff, that NOONE else can, but you have to learn a different playstyle and play the game a way that you may end up NOT liking. there are other options in the game (mage and warrior) so why not just let them open the locks (which serve as a barrier to a rogueless party)??

 

the fact of the matter is that everyone, no matter how well designed a rogue is, just doesnt have the right feeling towards that class. we WANT to play soomething else, out of our own selfish or stupid reasons. but we CANNOT because the game is made so that if you dont bring a rogue you miss out of on content. be it small or big, monetary or experiancewise, or just a simple annoyance. we still HAVE to bring a rogue. *sadface*

 

No one is forced to bring a rogue. As i have stated I had parties with no rogue. The party was not limited. In both DAO and DA2 money was not a problem. By the end of DAO I had 1000 gold in my rogueless party. I did the same with my mageless party. I had an almost all rogue party. All the parties had lots of gold. Act I in DA2 was not hard. The party could raise the 50 gold without a problem and did not need a rogue.

 

The point here is that many gamers have a compulsion to open every chest or door which is not necessary to achieve the objective.

It appears in DAI a party will be penalized if it does not have a mage that can fix objects (like repairing bridges). That means a mageless party is at a disadvantage. Therefore the Inquisitor or a non-mage party member should have this ability. Unfortunately, that runs counter to the lore. That becomes a class specific ability.  

[Icy Magebane]

No one is forced to bring a rogue. As i have stated I had parties with no rogue. The party was not limited. In both DAO and DA2 money was not a problem. By the end of DAO I had 1000 gold in my rogueless party. I did the same with my mageless party. I had an almost all rogue party. All the parties had lots of gold. Act I in DA2 was not hard. The party could raise the 50 gold without a problem and did not need a rogue.

 

I think I may have been playing the game wrong.

[Realmzmaster]

 

I think I may have been playing the game wrong.

 

Not necessarily, I tend not to buy anything from the shops outside of the components to make potions. I ended one run of DAO with 99 of each level of health potion. It also made Awakenings easier since I already had the money to upgrade the Keep.

 

In DA2 resource management is necessary. You have to decide if you can afforded to upgrade the companions and still have enough to make the 50 gold. Hawke does not need the 50 gold if Hawke makes use of Dougal (Friends in low places), which acts a way to advance the plot if you overspend. 

 

If Hawke pays the 50 gold Hawke gets it back at the beginning of Act II.

 

Actually in Act I Hawke and party can earn 100 gold from the quests not counting items (like string of Pearls) that enhance coin dropping.

[Icy Magebane]

@ Realmzmaster - You know, I take that back.  I made the mistake of thinking we were talking about the base game.  Since that's the version I played most recently, I'd forgotten about how many additional weapons and armors you get free of charge with the DLCs/Ultimate Edition of DA:O.  Yeah, if you take that into account, the money and exp you get from chests is mostly irrelevant.

[Chron0id]

Sera, here's a lockpick.  It might be handy if you, the master of unlocking, take it with you. 

[Roar Hilmarsen]

Would you be okay with not bringing a rogue if say... we could grind for exp (impossible in DA:O and DA2), and we could earn enough money that we didn't need to worry about buying the "wrong" items?  For example, most of the good items in DA:O cost 80-100 gold or more.  IMO that was unreasonable, because you could only buy a few elite items and if you bought the wrong thing, too bad, money is limited.  But if prices were lower or you didn't have to worry about picking up every coin you could just to make ends meet... would you still care about locked chests?

this is a what if scenario, and if i can be asured that i dont get any locked content (say an epic helm or whatever) that i cannot backtrack with A rogue once to pick up it would make the situation easier, still would be silly not beeing able to open locks cause id still come accross those locked chests and cant do anything with them.

[Roar Hilmarsen]

Not necessarily, I tend not to buy anything from the shops outside of the components to make potions. I ended one run of DAO with 99 of each level of health potion. It also made Awakenings easier since I already had the money to upgrade the Keep.

 

In DA2 resource management is necessary. You have to decide if you can afforded to upgrade the companions and still have enough to make the 50 gold. Hawke does not need the 50 gold if Hawke makes use of Dougal (Friends in low places), which acts a way to advance the plot if you overspend. 

 

If Hawke pays the 50 gold Hawke gets it back at the beginning of Act II.

 

Actually in Act I Hawke and party can earn 100 gold from the quests not counting items (like string of Pearls) that enhance coin dropping.

alright, so one doesnt need the chests and the gold, items and experiance is limited. yet still it seems to be a populair mod to allow other classes then rogues open the chests, which leads to the solution of adding an option to allow everyone to open them, and to allow only rogues to open chests. this way, you  get to play EXACTLY the way you want without it taking away from the game or having to download any third party mod. 
Yes you do prove alot of good points, there are workarounds, but the in the end, the simplest way is just to get to the chests and noone needs to suffer unnessesarily + you can still do your options questwise and so on, so get the gold as an added bonus
(btw i dont have the DLC's, only got the starter game. bought in very late - about a year ago, both games)

[Roar Hilmarsen]

Sera, here's a lockpick.  It might be handy if you, the master of unlocking, take it with you. 

unless you are anything else then a rogue!

[Gtdef]

@ Realmzmaster - You know, I take that back.  I made the mistake of thinking we were talking about the base game.  Since that's the version I played most recently, I'd forgotten about how many additional weapons and armors you get free of charge with the DLCs/Ultimate Edition of DA:O.  Yeah, if you take that into account, the money and exp you get from chests is mostly irrelevant.

 

I said earlier somewhere that with just warden's keep and stone prisoner I reach 800+ . It's still way more than needed.

 

Melee classes need spellward, andruil's and 3 tomes, that's ~240 gold.

 

Warrior doesn't need anything more. Weapons are starweapon/keening blade, armor from wade or warden's keep, helm of honnleath, key to the city/harvest rings.

Rogue needs Felon's coat, Rose's Thorn and Bard's boots, that's 250~ gold extra.

 

I'm not going to go into mage cause the items vary depending on how much a minmaxer you are. For example I go with wade's medium and everything that gives a bonus to fire damage. And that's pretty cheap compared to other builds. But it's not that much different from rogue.

 

Now add the grandmaster runes you may buy and perhaps the lifegiver etc, 100-150 gold. That's ~400 gold for warrior and 600~ for rogue to buy EVERYTHING

 

In any case, without the dlcs, only warrior has to pay more which balances him out with the other 2 classes. Mage doesn't get many important stuff from them and rogue has free bos alternatives.

 

In worst case scenario there is at least 200 gold left in my pocket. Unlocking chests for the whole game won't even net more than ~60 gold.  Add the Crime wave quests for an extra ~40. So if you are not a rogue and don't unlock any chest at all, you may miss on 100 gold. Still you have way more than enough to buy anything.

[Realmzmaster]

alright, so one doesnt need the chests and the gold, items and experiance is limited. yet still it seems to be a populair mod to allow other classes then rogues open the chests, which leads to the solution of adding an option to allow everyone to open them, and to allow only rogues to open chests. this way, you  get to play EXACTLY the way you want without it taking away from the game or having to download any third party mod. 
Yes you do prove alot of good points, there are workarounds, but the in the end, the simplest way is just to get to the chests and noone needs to suffer unnessesarily + you can still do your options questwise and so on, so get the gold as an added bonus
(btw i dont have the DLC's, only got the starter game. bought in very late - about a year ago, both games)

 

I still do not understand where the suffering happens? Or is just the compulsion to open every chest or door the party comes across even if the party has all it needs to achieve the objective? 

 

DAI sees a new ability for the mages where they can fix objects (like bridges). Should not the other classes be able to achieve the same effect in a different way? Or should only mages be given that advantage?

 

It appears that Bioware is giving each class abilities that the other classes do not have to further differentiate the classes  so lockpicking and trap disarming are the province of rogues. 

[Gtdef]

I think mages will be far more important in DAI than that. They said there will be no out of combat regen. If they can still heal out of combat then there will be no party without them.

 

But I guess we will have to wait and see.

[Realmzmaster]

I think mages will be far more important in DAI than that. They said there will be no out of combat regen. If they can still heal out of combat then there will be no party without them.

 

But I guess we will have to wait and see.

 

Will probably depend on how many health, mana, stamina etc potions can be created and how well the party (gamer) can manage their use. Health/Mama/Stamina regeneration will also change depending on difficulty level. It will be very interesting how this will play out.

[Magdalena11]

DAI sees a new ability for the mages where they can fix objects (like bridges). Should not the other classes be able to achieve the same effect in a different way? Or should only mages be given that advantage?

 

It appears that Bioware is giving each class abilities that the other classes do not have to further differentiate the classes  so lockpicking and trap disarming are the province of rogues. 

I agree with you.  I think that is exactly what might happen.  Each class will be able to use its skills in a unique manner.  Mages have the ability to interact with the environment, so melting locks might be on the agenda, and warriors might be able to bash.  Some abilities are going to be better suited to a particular task, but none will be excluded entirely.  It also keeps each class unique.

 

Rogues might be better with strictly mechanical devices, mages are going to do well with magical wards and physical obstructions, and warriors are going to use their strength and toughness to not let a puny thing like a lock or a deadfall stand in their way.  Players who want to take advantage of all the help they can get will have an easier time, but no one is excluded.

 

The main issue I have with lockpicking being available to all is that picking locks, per se, is for rogues.  It's not strictly arguing about semantics, it's arguing that the classes should be distinct and I do think it will be addressed.