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Stealth/ Hand-to-Hand Combat Add To ME 4


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#26
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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Ok then, lets compare the gameplay mechanics of ghost recon future soldier with ME3. After all they are both squad based third person shooters.

 

Superior shooter mechanics? No. Ghost recon simulates weapons way better than ME and promotes mission specific weapons. ME only cares for dps/modifiers and weapon handling is clunky, especially recoil. Weapons mods of ME don't even come close to ghost recon.

Squad play? More like tech/fire/biotic explosion bots for ME. Ghost recon has ambushes, synchronized shots.

Close quarters combat? Charge punch nova, Charge punch nova, Charge punch nova, Charge punch Nova, Charge punch Nova.

Stealth? I like the fact that it is part of the "tutorial" mission.

Level design? Ghost recon features increased interactivity with environment, destructible cover. Mass Effect 3 only has cover.

Fights against vehicles? In ghost recon you can snipe the pilot or have to use heavy weapons to deal with them. In ME you shoot the robot till it breaks.

 

What does ME do better? It has spells. And even that can't compare to ghost recon's squad play.

 

Ghost recon has sonar and magnetic vision which allow you to scout ahead and ambush the enemy, mass effect has optics that increase shield strength by 5%

 

But as I said, it's not the same game. Bioware should take ideas, not try to make ME into something it's not. Would I like for new ME games to have the combat mechanics of true action games along with the rpg interactivity? Certainly. But if I can't have both, then I'd prefer ME to keep it's identity.

I understand what you are coming from, and I didn't mean the game should be entirely on stealth. It's all about options, unlimited options of what the game will offer to players who want multiple ways of having different experiences of what an open world game should feel like. And they can still keep Mass Effect's unique identity, I just think they can create new ideas to make the game great. And who knows? It might be far better than Ghost Recon.  



#27
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@Gtdef let's just say all that is true, which I can't know since I didn't play Ghost Recon. How that translate to "most Ubisoft titles"? You just talked about one game, maybe one series. 



#28
Gtdef

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@Gtdef let's just say all that is true, which I can't know since I didn't play Ghost Recon. How that translate to "most Ubisoft titles"? You just talked about one game, maybe one series. 

 

I focused on the game with most similarities to make a point. ME gameplay mechanics seem primitive because they all revolve around rpg modifiers and a very simplistic cover system. You can't really say something like that for other action shooters like Splinter Cell and Ghost Recon and the reason is cause they have a different focus.

 

In ME you build your toolkit and everything else is static. Your enemies is at x, you are at y, and eventually you kill them. In action shooters you have control over your kit and your approach. You can use tactics like explosives/mines, guerrilla sniping, guns blazing, stealth with melee takedowns. You can even choose lethal/non lethal approach

 

Even some assassin creed games have more tactical depth than ME. Take Revelations for example. You can tackle an encounter head on, you can use your guild of assassins to stealthily assassinate lookouts and bury enemies in arrows. You can pay people to goad the guards so you can pass through without trouble. Use explosives/smoke to clear a group of Janissaries that are adept at swordplay. So many things to do.

 

How many different things you can think for ME which is supposed to be a tactical squad shooter. Your fighting ability is directly proportional to how much numerical damage you can inflict on an enemy out of cover and the most tactical decision you can do is not run in the open like an idiot (unless you are a vanguard where you just charge/nova while being immune to damage for the duration). You can't even use stealth to get in an advantageous position and create crossfires. It's like playing the boring call of duty sp missions over and over with worse weapon mechanics, more control over squadmembers and funny gadgets.

 

Now don't get me wrong. ME3 is very good at what it does. It's polished, rewards smart build choices and has very balanced numbers. For example I was impressed with the energy drain infiltrator build cause on insanity if you cloak+energy drain you have just enough damage to break the shields of marauders and centurions while a simple energy drain won't be enough and you will have to waste a sniper shot to bypass shield gating. That's not random, they gave some serious thought in balancing the numbers and they deserve recognition for that. 

 

But when all are said and done, it's still a limited gameplay experience and it could be so much more judging by things that already exist in the game but were never given much thought.


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#29
Gtdef

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I understand what you are coming from, and I didn't mean the game should be entirely on stealth. It's all about options, unlimited options of what the game will offer to players who want multiple ways of having different experiences of what an open world game should feel like. And they can still keep Mass Effect's unique identity, I just think they can create new ideas to make the game great. And who knows? It might be far better than Ghost Recon.  

 

I agree. Most ideas I actually have about how ME gameplay could be improved is taken directly from lore and things that exist in the game but are not supported well. I also think that Bioware expressed an interest in focusing more on combat with the Omega dlc. I really liked that dlc. You actually felt like being unique and strong because the enemies are powerful and smarter and the game forces you in solo scenarios and other overwhelming situations. You have to play the game on Insanity though. Otherwise you can't really appreciate it.


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#30
Ryuzetsu

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All for the hand to hand to increase, assassinations ala Halo Reach..yes please. I think if you want stealth just beef the Infiltrator class so that this is part of their skill set. As far as hand to hand goes you can take it further the just human styles, Kung fu, Krav, Kempo, etc. why not Turian, Salarian, or even Asari forms. How cool would it be to get CQB training at a Justicar temple or something of that nature?

#31
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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All for the hand to hand to increase, assassinations ala Halo Reach..yes please. I think if you want stealth just beef the Infiltrator class so that this is part of their skill set. As far as hand to hand goes you can take it further the just human styles, Kung fu, Krav, Kempo, etc. why not Turian, Salarian, or even Asari forms. How cool would it be to get CQB training at a Justicar temple or something of that nature?

Oh yeah, all races can have unique skill sets and as I forgot to mention I have an idea that you can customize/create your own class like Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, join a faction that offers/train your character certain skills that you want. And yes I think they should match all races unique form martial arts what's best for them. Thank you for mentioned that to me. 



#32
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@Gtdef I don't see it exactly that way. Mass Effect 2 and 3 have a focused gameplay, it's about shooting down people, that's true enough. Saying it's just about moving from cover to cover and shoot the enemy is not a wrong assessment, but it's one that misses a lot of what is inside that gameplay. Stuff like different kind of enemies that have different defenses which will ask from the player different ways to take them down. The "magical" aspect of the combat also make it very distinct from others shooter, something you kind of acknowledge but I'd like to mention... different combinations of squadmates, a huge number of weapons and a lot of enemy variety.

Tatically it is very simple. You go, see the enemy and shoot them, but the shooting part has a lot of work. You mentioned Ass Creed, there is some tatical decisions that you can make but the swordplay is almost nonexistent. With the press of one or two buttons you can kill all the enemies... the parallel with ME would be that all the work in Mass Effect is precisley in the swordplay.



#33
Mcfly616

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Plenty of shooters have incorporated the option of being stealthy without it feeling tacked on. No reason the next Mass Effect can't do the same.


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#34
Gtdef

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@Gtdef I don't see it exactly that way. Mass Effect 2 and 3 have a focused gameplay, it's about shooting down people, that's true enough. Saying it's just about moving from cover to cover and shoot the enemy is not a wrong assessment, but it's one that misses a lot of what is inside that gameplay. Stuff like different kind of enemies that have different defenses which will ask from the player different ways to take them down. The "magical" aspect of the combat also make it very distinct from others shooter, something you kind of acknowledge but I'd like to mention... different combinations of squadmates, a huge number of weapons and a lot of enemy variety.

Tatically it is very simple. You go, see the enemy and shoot them, but the shooting part has a lot of work. You mentioned Ass Creed, there is some tatical decisions that you can make but the swordplay is almost nonexistent. With the press of one or two buttons you can kill all the enemies... the parallel with ME would be that all the work in Mass Effect is precisley in the swordplay.

 

Essentially we are in agreement. Perhaps the word primitive was a bit more aggressive and send a different message than I intended. What I want to say is that point for point comparison, ME lacks depth and it wouldn't be a stretch to implement some of the more basic ideas of a pure action game while expanding on things they've done in the past.

 

I'll give some examples for ME game elements that they could expand upon. The collector base assault mission in ME2 has the concept of stealth, distraction teams, and holding the flank.

 

I don't see why this shouldn't be a more permanent gameplay element. When you go on missions, pick 2 teams, the main strike team and a reinforcement specialist team. You can go in the ground with Jacob and Grunt that rock shotguns and are good at assaulting defensive points, have thane/garrus on sniper duty so you can call them down from the shuttle to dispatch some enemies you will have trouble to kill without a sniper rifle and a hacker to handle, turrets, cannons and locked doors.

 

Then make the gameplay revolve around that. You will have to train your team in special operations, like assault/sniper/hacker and when you are on the ground there should be more enemies/turrets in better positions with rockets and other highly suppressive weapons that halt your progress, so if your team isn't equipped to deal with it, you call for sniper support and your hacker to hack the turret. And after you take an objective you call on your secondary assault team of defensive specialists like lets say samara/miranda to hold your flank. If they are not trained well or if you don't support them (for example you were forced to break the turret and you can't use it now) they get overun after a while and have to retreat, so you will have enemies pouring behind you.

 

It's still the same game. Thinking back to archangel recruitment, you do exactly that. Garrus holds the line while you deal with the infiltration team, if you leave a team mate with him, he lasts longer but you have to do extra effort to deal with the infiltration team.

 

These things already exist in the game. They are just too lazy to implement them. There is the odd mission where you can do something like that and you feel great cause you actually do something that a proper military force would do. How hard can it be to add a few checkpoints and add an animation for shuttle arriving and providing fire support.

 

For stealth, you can have the second assault team engage the enemy while you use a tunnel or something to bypass the encounter and if your team has high stealth rating then you can tell your assault team to retreat and none will be the wiser that you were there too. how hard can it be to add a secondary skill system for operations and have difficulty checks. The last mission is full of them. If you keep zaeed, jack and grunt to hold your flank, none will die because their collective combat rating is higher than the death threshold. If you don't then the lower combat rated characters like Mordin may die. It makes sense. 

 

If they don't try something like that in a more permanent basis, this game will always be see enemy shoot enemy kill enemy with the occasional exciting mission. If it's succesful, then they will have an obvious course of action, to improve the more finer points of combat, like adding stealth take downs and silencers so the stealth team can progress better. Or add biotic abilities that assist somehow, like making a field that restricts sound.


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#35
Zatche

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Yes, I would like optional stealth and hand to hand combat abilities.

 

Definitely don't want forced stealth sections that don't jive with the rest of the gameplay a la Citadel DLC.



#36
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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Hey guys I'm going to give out a few samples of what H2H Combat & Martial Arts

 

H2H Combat: 

 

Martial Arts:

 



#37
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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Essentially we are in agreement. Perhaps the word primitive was a bit more aggressive and send a different message than I intended. What I want to say is that point for point comparison, ME lacks depth and it wouldn't be a stretch to implement some of the more basic ideas of a pure action game while expanding on things they've done in the past.

 

I'll give some examples for ME game elements that they could expand upon. The collector base assault mission in ME2 has the concept of stealth, distraction teams, and holding the flank.

 

I don't see why this shouldn't be a more permanent gameplay element. When you go on missions, pick 2 teams, the main strike team and a reinforcement specialist team. You can go in the ground with Jacob and Grunt that rock shotguns and are good at assaulting defensive points, have thane/garrus on sniper duty so you can call them down from the shuttle to dispatch some enemies you will have trouble to kill without a sniper rifle and a hacker to handle, turrets, cannons and locked doors.

 

Then make the gameplay revolve around that. You will have to train your team in special operations, like assault/sniper/hacker and when you are on the ground there should be more enemies/turrets in better positions with rockets and other highly suppressive weapons that halt your progress, so if your team isn't equipped to deal with it, you call for sniper support and your hacker to hack the turret. And after you take an objective you call on your secondary assault team of defensive specialists like lets say samara/miranda to hold your flank. If they are not trained well or if you don't support them (for example you were forced to break the turret and you can't use it now) they get overun after a while and have to retreat, so you will have enemies pouring behind you.

 

It's still the same game. Thinking back to archangel recruitment, you do exactly that. Garrus holds the line while you deal with the infiltration team, if you leave a team mate with him, he lasts longer but you have to do extra effort to deal with the infiltration team.

 

These things already exist in the game. They are just too lazy to implement them. There is the odd mission where you can do something like that and you feel great cause you actually do something that a proper military force would do. How hard can it be to add a few checkpoints and add an animation for shuttle arriving and providing fire support.

 

For stealth, you can have the second assault team engage the enemy while you use a tunnel or something to bypass the encounter and if your team has high stealth rating then you can tell your assault team to retreat and none will be the wiser that you were there too. how hard can it be to add a secondary skill system for operations and have difficulty checks. The last mission is full of them. If you keep zaeed, jack and grunt to hold your flank, none will die because their collective combat rating is higher than the death threshold. If you don't then the lower combat rated characters like Mordin may die. It makes sense. 

 

If they don't try something like that in a more permanent basis, this game will always be see enemy shoot enemy kill enemy with the occasional exciting mission. If it's succesful, then they will have an obvious course of action, to improve the more finer points of combat, like adding stealth take downs and silencers so the stealth team can progress better. Or add biotic abilities that assist somehow, like making a field that restricts sound.

That is a really a good idea and a good argument about what they should have done to make the gameplay evolved into more efficient and fun for players. Speaking of gameplay I would create a topic for advance combat design and animation. 



#38
RawThunderHustle

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I'm up for that, would also like the N7 classes in game; go hand to hand as a Slayer or Shadow. :ph34r:


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#39
Mecha Elf

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Id love to be a kai leng(?) Type of soldier more or kasumi.
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#40
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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Another example of stealth mechanics 



#41
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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I focused on the game with most similarities to make a point. ME gameplay mechanics seem primitive because they all revolve around rpg modifiers and a very simplistic cover system. You can't really say something like that for other action shooters like Splinter Cell and Ghost Recon and the reason is cause they have a different focus.

 

In ME you build your toolkit and everything else is static. Your enemies is at x, you are at y, and eventually you kill them. In action shooters you have control over your kit and your approach. You can use tactics like explosives/mines, guerrilla sniping, guns blazing, stealth with melee takedowns. You can even choose lethal/non lethal approach

 

Even some assassin creed games have more tactical depth than ME. Take Revelations for example. You can tackle an encounter head on, you can use your guild of assassins to stealthily assassinate lookouts and bury enemies in arrows. You can pay people to goad the guards so you can pass through without trouble. Use explosives/smoke to clear a group of Janissaries that are adept at swordplay. So many things to do.

 

How many different things you can think for ME which is supposed to be a tactical squad shooter. Your fighting ability is directly proportional to how much numerical damage you can inflict on an enemy out of cover and the most tactical decision you can do is not run in the open like an idiot (unless you are a vanguard where you just charge/nova while being immune to damage for the duration). You can't even use stealth to get in an advantageous position and create crossfires. It's like playing the boring call of duty sp missions over and over with worse weapon mechanics, more control over squadmembers and funny gadgets.

 

Now don't get me wrong. ME3 is very good at what it does. It's polished, rewards smart build choices and has very balanced numbers. For example I was impressed with the energy drain infiltrator build cause on insanity if you cloak+energy drain you have just enough damage to break the shields of marauders and centurions while a simple energy drain won't be enough and you will have to waste a sniper shot to bypass shield gating. That's not random, they gave some serious thought in balancing the numbers and they deserve recognition for that. 

 

But when all are said and done, it's still a limited gameplay experience and it could be so much more judging by things that already exist in the game but were never given much thought.

Hey add that to ME4 gameplay. That is a good one.



#42
Teddie Sage

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I wonder if they included a character similar to Kasumi in the ME3 MP, that type of character would be fun to play in the next SP campaign they're currently designing.


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#43
Pateu

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Splinter Cell Blacklist is the best stealth game ever created.

 

Yeaaah, no.

 

Thief Deadly Shadows m8.



#44
Han Shot First

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Hey guys I'm going to give out a few samples of what H2H Combat & Martial Arts

 

*snip*

 

 

If there are melee attacks in the next game, I hope the animations draw more of their inspiration from military training than stuff you might see in an MMA match. Something like this basically:

 

Spoiler


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#45
SolNebula

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Maybe i'm pessimistic but this is not going to happen in my own view because designing a stealth option inside our levels is not something easy to do...like just putting a stealth class and you are done with it. It won't work....like the silenced pistol in ME3 Citadel DLC. You can't stealth anything.

 

Creating a stealth mechanics requires deep modifications of level and gaming design which I don't think is something BW is looking for. A hybrid system is always detrimental to one or the other aspect. A stealth game is very poor in the action part and the same is true for action games that tries to implement stealth. No wonder that the best stealth games are specifically designed to do that...the level are designed to enhance stealth possibilites...and most of the times you are penalized if you go the action route. Deus EX, Dishonored...

 

Hybrid system are the worst. because they are not good in anything.

 

You guys are asking something BW never developed and possibly are not good nor interested in developing....stealth. Considering that this would contrast with the open world approach they want to implement and tha party structure of BW adventures...even the rogue in DA is NOT about stealth. How would you implement stealth with companions AI? It's simply asking for problems.

 

 

Having said all of this if BW is going this route i'm open to be impressed



#46
DarthLaxian

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The problem with games that adopt stealth sections into their gameplay is that more often then not the gamer gets penalised if there character gets detected, case in point Assassins Creed and the eavesdrop and tailing missions or Watch Dogs and it instant failure stealth sections. A well designed game would allow for a stealth options to be available in a lot of combat sections but it also would not force the gamer to partake in these stealth sections or penalise the gamer for getting caught.

 

That's exactly it - I love Assassin's Creed (Splinter Cell is ok IMHO, but I haven't played "Blacklist" yet...the last one I bought was "Conviction")...but I hate the forced stealth...I like having the option, but being forced to use it (or being rewarded for it - and not only with a few more credits to buy new weapons or something, but with getting access to further game content for example, is something I hate) - even more so in situations I would survive without it - like in Assassin's Creed having further guards called in, guards I can kill without having much of a problem normally, but now I get told: You fucked up, start again...frustrating and tedious)

 

greetings LAX

ps: Stealth for ALL (like in KOTOR) would be my prefered option (because: what would - in RL - stop a soldier, a biotic or a tech from using a cloaking generator? - nothing, that's what!)


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#47
SNascimento

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Creating a stealth mechanics requires deep modifications of level and gaming design which I don't think is something BW is looking for. A hybrid system is always detrimental to one or the other aspect. A stealth game is very poor in the action part and the same is true for action games that tries to implement stealth. No wonder that the best stealth games are specifically designed to do that...the level are designed to enhance stealth possibilites...and most of the times you are penalized if you go the action route. Deus EX, Dishonored...

 

I think that improved a lot. Splinter Cell Blacklist for example, it's a game that doesn't make you feel like a 10 years old when you're detected. Sam Fisher is a their top agent, and he feels like that, both when he is trying to sneak by or when his cover is blown and he has to use more... direct means. Or in gameplay terms, both the stealth and the gunplay are highly developed.

Even Dishonored, you can very well play it all guns blazing. The gunplay support that. Deus Ex a little bit less but with the right skill set and weapons you can too. So I don't think today great stealth and great combat and mutually exclusive, quite the contrary, there are games out there that prove it can be done.

All that said, I do agree with you that stealth isn't just about giving you a silenced weapon and make enemies look the other way while you approach, there are a lot of gameplay desings that must be met, and in a game like Mass Effect they create some unique challenges, like the squadmates. The gameplay can be improved, no doubt, but it can't fall in ME1 trap again: trying to be two things and being neither. 


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#48
Han Shot First

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I'm not sure if stealth is a good fit for Mass Effect considering it is squad-based game. Most stealth games have a lone wolf protagonist. 


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#49
Malanek

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The next ME gameplay should be more like ME3 multiplayer, and imo that means stealth isn't a very good fit at all beyond things like Infiltrators cloaking and powers to simulate assassins like shadow strike and explosive mines. The strength and unique identity of ME gameplay is the combination of a shooter and ARPG with a staggering different number of kits, powers and guns. Building a genuine stealth system into it would be a mistake imo as the typical gameplay is a hundred times faster than a stealth game. It is a completely different style of game.


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#50
BaaBaaBlacksheep

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I'm not sure if stealth is a good fit for Mass Effect considering it is squad-based game. Most stealth games have a lone wolf protagonist.

 

Not necessarily, they have SOCOM series that has a squad-based stealth mechanics. As I said before stealth is an option like Fallout or Skyrim. And another thing they should make a game that is both squad-based and lonewolf. You can play by yourself in missions and/or you can have people fight with you whatever you choose.