117 réponses à ce sujet

[mikeymoonshine]

Using Kossith creates more confusion than not using it because it's not going to show up at all in the game. 

 

Language is confusing and not everything has an exact name, demand one all you like but you aren't getting one. Gaider said he doesn't mind you using Kossith though as long as you don't tell other people that this is actually the name for the qunari race and that they are wrong for not using it. As I said in my opinion it just makes everything more confusing but obviously some of you will never let this go. 

 

As for "Vashoth vs "Tal-Vashoth", the thing is they are kind of the same thing anyway, Tal-Vashoth give themselves that prefix, usually because they oppose the Qun but how they oppose it is really up to them. 

 

Those born into Qunari society who reject the Qun are called Vashoth, which means "gray ones". These gray ones must leave their homes, for they have no place among the Qunari. Sadly, many turn against the society that cast them out.

These outcasts call themselves Tal-Vashoth, "the true gray ones". Often, they have no skills to make an honest living, so they sell themselves into service, usually becoming mercenaries. Even the most inept fighter among the Qunari race possesses prodigious size and an intimidating visage. These, she informed me, were my attackers in the countryside, the same band that wreaked such havoc on Vindaar.

 

The only thing we can tell from our character being Vashoth is that this is how the Qunari will view us for whatever reason. Maybe the Qunquizzy was born in a Vashoth or Tal-Vashot community. Maybe that's just how the Qunari see members or the qunari race who are not part of the Qun regardless of whether they left it or not. it really doesn't matter because to most people in Thedas you will be qunari. 

[mikeymoonshine]

 

Likewise the devs have also used the term "Vashoth" when referring to the Qunari option for the player character in Inquisition. Used in the sense of a Qunari who was raised outside the Qun. 

 

Until there is some form of official info that says otherwise, I'm sticking with what the devs have said in this regard.

 

The quote in my last comment is from the codex, It says otherwise. 

[Kreidian]

With all due respect to them, screw the devs on this one. I don't care what the Qunari call themselves and I don't care that they don't have a name for their race. Us, as a fanbase for when we talk about lore and canon and characters, need some way to distinguish the race from the religion. If you don't it just muddles the language and makes it more confusing. Call Qunari who aren't of the horned race viddithari or call the horned one Kossith or some other fan nickname, otherwise we as fans are going to run into problems when discussing this stuff. There needs to be clarity in the language for lore discussion, regardless of whether it's "uncanon" or not developer endorsed.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I really disagree with you on this one.

If anything adding more terms like "Kossith" and "viddithari" which are unlikely to actually get used much outside of discussions like this will only complicate things more rather then clarifying.

 

As things stand, it's not something I consider very confusing. If someone is talking about Qunari, they are almost certainly talking about the race, and also likely those of the race who follow the Qun. That is the most common case for the word and the simplest way to use it.

 

People of other races who are part of the Qun are a much more uncommon experience. As are those of the Qunari race who don't follow the Qun. For those cases we have readily available quantifiers we can use to keep things clear. If I'm talking about Tallis, I can easily refer to her as a Qunari Elf. The Viscount's son in DA2 was hoping to become a human Qunari, etc, etc. On the other hand, the Qunari Inquisitor can be referred to as Vashoth.

 

If you want to talk about the Qunari religion, then just say you're talking about the Qunari religion.

 

I think that's pretty straight forward.  There's no need to add more words into the mix.

 

 

Having laid that out there, though, I gotta say it is interesting seeing the frustration and confusion that people experience when they don't have easy labels to use in the way they are accustomed to. It does a pretty good job of showing how misunderstandings and hostilities can arise between the other nations in game who would be equally confused by the alien way that the Qunari society uses even simple things like names.

[Mirrman70]

people new to the games won't understand the usage of the term kossith because it is most likely never going to be mentioned ever again in game. so just using qunari is most likely the best way to avoid confusion in the future.

[andy6915]

people new to the games won't understand the usage of the term kossith because it is most likely never going to be mentioned ever again in game. so just using qunari is most likely the best way to avoid confusion in the future.

We won't say it's a canon name, it will be a fan nickname. No different than when we called Javik "Prothy". I don't see new players getting confused by a fan-name.

[movieguyabw]

Bottom line, we need a distinction. I decided to stop arguing the anti-Kossith people and gave an alternative so that it's the Qunari of other races that have a nickname (viddathari) and not the big horned guys. You hate kossith for the race of giants, fine... Then I'll just use a word for the Qunari who aren't of that race. Qunari for the race of horned guys even if they're Vashoth, and viddathari for any Qunari who aren't of the horned race. Happy?

 

-----------------------------------

 

The Wiki classifies Tallis as an "elven Qunari".  I don't see why that would be a problem for describing an Elven/Dwarven/or Human follower of the Qun.  It's descriptive enough, and is easily accessible to players new to the series.

 

As for your slippery-slope argument about "if we refer this race by their religion, where do we stop?" - the only reason we refer to the Qunari as such is because they've gone generations only ever referring to themselves as that.  In fact the religion has spread so far within their race, and lasted for so long, that no one really knows *what* they were called before.  There really is no equivalent to this in the real world, nor in Thedas.

 

It'd be like if one of the main tenants of christianity was that you could no longer refer to yourself as "human", or anything other than "christian".  By the middle ages anyone living in a European nation would be unable to understand the concept of "human" or "person", and think only in terms of "christian" or "not christian".  They might see a distinction between those who oppose (or are excommunicated by) the church, and those who were never actually taught christianity; and might refer to one as "non-christian" and one as "ex-christian".  And it's very likely in this scenario that if a traveler from Asia interacted with them, and referred to them as something other than "christian" that they would take offense.

 

That's the distinction right there.  That's why it's not a slippery slope.

[k3ttch]

It's like the label "Jewish." There are people who are ethnically Azkenazim or Sephardim but don't actively practice Judaism. At the same time, you've got people like the Falashas of Ethiopia who are practicing Jews, but are ethnically distinct from what we traditionally view as "Jewish."

[Mirrman70]

We won't say it's a canon name, it will be a fan nickname. No different than when we called Javik "Prothy". I don't see new players getting confused by a fan-name.

but almost nobody calls him "Prothy" any more. soon "Scribbles" for Josephine will be phased out as well.  we have an official name for the race horned people given to us by Gaider himself and that is qunari. gaider said himself that the writing team calls them qunari. Vasoth is just an indicator for whether they follow the Qun or not. the only people in the game who have refered to other races as Qunari is members of the  Qun themselves.  I like to think of the term Qunari as both an ethnic term and cultural one.

[andy6915]

but almost nobody calls him "Prothy" any more. soon "Scribbles" for Josephine will be phased out as well.  we have an official name for the race horned people given to us by Gaider himself and that is qunari. gaider said himself that the writing team calls them qunari. Vasoth is just an indicator for whether they follow the Qun or not. the only people in the game who have refered to other races as Qunari is members of the  Qun themselves.  I like to think of the term Qunari as both an ethnic term and cultural one.

The reason for that is we eventually got the real names. Just because we might never get a race name for Qunari doesn't mean we shouldn't do a fan nickname for convenience.

[Mirrman70]

The reason for that is we eventually got the real names. Just because we might never get a race name for Qunari doesn't mean we shouldn't do a fan nickname for convenience.

 

You don't seem to understand... David Gaider (Lead Writer and Tyrannical Lord of BSN) said that the name of the race of horned people is qunari. end of story you can keep saying that we haven't been given a name but we have. He has said it in many threads much like this one.

[Schreckstoff]

you seem very hung up on something that can easily be clarified if there is a misunderstanding

[Mirrman70]

And what is your point? I've clarified more than enough, at this point I'm beginning to suspect the reading ability of people on this forum is very lacking. Let me make this as clear as possible: I don't give 1 flying sh!t what Gaider said or didn't say, I don't care if the nickname the fanbase uses is canon or even remotely connected to the lore at all. What I do care about is everyone have a word that makes a distinction between Qunari the race and Qunari of religion. Oh, and you are very hung up on the "Kossith" part of my posts. I've already given alternatives. If that specific word p!sses you off so much, then use a different one. As long as it makes a distinction, I don't care if the nickname for their race is Schmooples. Replace Kossith with any other word as long as it works and the fanbase agrees on it, that word in particular isn't a hinge point for me.

 

There, that clear enough? Or do I need to write like you're 5 and use simpler words?

 

You clearly aren't getting my point so why should I care about yours. Which I have read and do understand just don't agree with in the slightest.

[DrDetective]

I'd also like to point out that the "Qunari is the race and the culture/religion" thing makes no sense, internally.  The Qunari should either refer to everyone outside the Qun by a single term (Basra, Vashoth, whatever), ignoring race entirely, or they should have a distinct name for their own race, separate from their religion.  Yet the Arishok, Sten, and every other qunari Qunari we've ever met refers to "human" society as the group opposed to the Qun on a regular basis, rather than "Andrastian," "Bas" or whatever the hell else, even though there are apparently human Qunari, as well.

[mikeymoonshine]

I'd also like to point out that the "Qunari is the race and the culture/religion" thing makes no sense, internally. 

 

That's because it's not technically correct (although not completely incorrect either), they feel no need to name their race because It's not important to them. They define themselves by their culture and if they need to define themselves in other ways then they do but they don't need a race name. 

 

 

 

 The Qunari should either refer to everyone outside the Qun by a single term (Basra, Vashoth, whatever), ignoring race entirely, or they should have a distinct name for their own race, separate from their religion. 

 

Your dichotomy is false, they don't need to do one of these two things.

 

 

 

 Yet the Arishok, Sten, and every other qunari Qunari we've ever met refers to "human" society as the group opposed to the Qun on a regular basis, rather than "Andrastian," "Bas" or whatever the hell else, even though there are apparently human Qunari, as well.

 

Maybe they were speaking for your benefit? Maybe they were generalizing? I don't see the big deal here. They probably wouldn't call the human Qunari "human Qunari" they were probably just generalizing outside societies in these cases and they probably only did that for the pc's benefit. 

[In Exile]

I'd also like to point out that the "Qunari is the race and the culture/religion" thing makes no sense, internally.  The Qunari should either refer to everyone outside the Qun by a single term (Basra, Vashoth, whatever), ignoring race entirely, or they should have a distinct name for their own race, separate from their religion. 

 

That doesn't follow at all. The Qunari see themselves as a nation, and they have one word for it: Qunari. Within that nation, each individual has a role, and they have a name for that role. They have a name for those born outside of the Qun (Bas). They also recognize the subdivisions that those outside of the Qun have, i.e., that they refer to themselves as elves or humans. They're not stupid. It's the same as to how they recognize that Grey Wardens are a thing. 

[DrDetective]

That's because it's not technically correct (although not completely incorrect either), they feel no need to name their race because It's not important to them. They define themselves by their culture and if they need to define themselves in other ways then they do but they don't need a race name. 

The Qunari have very strict opinions about who is capable of what kind of work.  So, they have groups with very obvious physical differences, which would definitely come up, but they have no word to describe one of these groups?  These people are supposed to be efficient.  Also, their breeding program, and any medical science/infrastructure, would need those words to exist, as well.

 

 

 

Your dichotomy is false, they don't need to do one of these two things.

 

I didn't say they "need" to.  I said that it would make more sense if they did.  Or at least refer to other nations, instead of other races.  For instance, Kirkwall is in the Free Marches, and thus not indicative of human culture as a whole, and Hawke is a Ferelden and a Free Marcher/Kirkwaller.  But the Arishok calls him/her "human" more often than anything else besides "bas".  That's contradictory to the idea that race is not as important as culture to them, because it directly refers to humans as something outside the Qun.

 

 

 

That doesn't follow at all. The Qunari see themselves as a nation, and they have one word for it: Qunari.

Then they should refer to those outside the Qun by their nations, as well.  See above.

 

 

 

... They also recognize the subdivisions that those outside of the Qun have, i.e., that they refer to themselves as elves or humans. They're not stupid. It's the same as to how they recognize that Grey Wardens are a thing. 

 

It's really not, though. One:  Recognizing that the races exist is not the issue. Two: That is a distinct group, made up of individuals of multiple races, with a single purpose, much like the Qunari (or at least, like they claim.  We haven't seen enough to know how accurate that really is).  Of course they would recognize that they exist, because they clearly do, even if you are thinking like a Qunari.

 

But elves don't exist, if you are thinking like a Qunari.  They are Kirkwallers, or Dalish, or Antivans, or whatnot.

[Mirrman70]

snip

ok ok but think about it this way... each Qunari has an identifying name used by the priesthood to make a potential mach as well as keep track of them. think of it as a serial code. Maybe part of that Identifier helps determine what race they are like a human soldier might have a specific part added to their name to say this is a human soldier and so on.... super simple stuff yo. that identifying term doesn't even have to be a word that references race but more a description of their appearance like the Qun version of species names and stuff. ****** Sapien, ****** Erectus ****** Neanderthalensis; these are all "humans" but still separate.

[mikeymoonshine]

The Qunari have very strict opinions about who is capable of what kind of work.  So, they have groups with very obvious physical differences, which would definitely come up, but they have no word to describe one of these groups?  These people are supposed to be efficient.  Also, their breeding program, and any medical science/infrastructure, would need those words to exist, as well.

 

They believe they are their role, that is what is important to them. Why would it come up? Most Qunari are actually qunari. 

 

Well one human may have completely different medical needs to another but they are both still humans anyway I imagine it's mostly the same for all races. If they feel like they need to differentiate then they will and we know race is relevant to them because they selectively breed but this does not mean there needs to be some name for the qunari race. 

 

 

 

I didn't say they "need" to.  I said that it would make more sense if they did.  Or at least refer to other nations, instead of other races.  For instance, Kirkwall is in the Free Marches, and thus not indicative of human culture as a whole, and Hawke is a Ferelden and a Free Marcher/Kirkwaller.  But the Arishok calls him/her "human" more often than anything else besides "bas".  That's contradictory to the idea that race is not as important as culture to them, because it directly refers to humans as something outside the Qun.

 

I didn't say you said that and anyway you said they "should" do that "for it to make sense" which more or less means "need to". 

 

They view their culture as important that doesn't mean they don't recognise the existence of races and other cultures. Remember the Antaam and the Ben-Hassrath actually have to deal with other cultures so they are more likely to speak in terms that those other cultures may find more familiar. I already kinda said this btw. 

 

I don't know if race is important to them or not, I would assume it is somewhat. I do know it's less important than their culture and that naming the qunari race as something other than qunari is not important to them. They don't really define themselves by their race but that doesn't mean they don't acknowledge it at all. They just don't feel the need to have a word for the qunari race. 

 

 

 

But elves don't exist, if you are thinking like a Qunari.  They are Kirkwallers, or Dalish, or Antivans, or whatnot.

 

i feel like you are confusing "not important" with "doesn't exist".

[mikeymoonshine]

It could also be that them not believing race is important is more of an ideological idea that does not completely represent how their society is run. They differentiate, they just do it without having a name for the qunari race. 

[DrDetective]

It could also be that them not believing race is important is more of an ideological idea that does not completely represent how their society is run. They differentiate, they just do it without having a name for the qunari race. 

That makes the least sense of all.  They are actively planning to take over the rest of Thedas, the population of which is far greater than that of their race.  At that point they will be forced to come up with a name for themselves besides just "qunari," or abandon the name "Qunari" for their culture.

 

 

i feel like you are confusing "not important" with "doesn't exist".

No, I'm saying that if it's so unimportant to them, they wouldn't use the words at all in conversation.  These are people who thought that "We can't leave until we get our fancy book back" was too complex/specific to the Qun for Hawke to understand.  They are not the type to pander to the worldviews of others out of convenience.

 

 

Also, the Ben-Hassrath and Antaam interracting with other races makes it more likely that they would have a specific, distinct word for their race, because they have would have to differentiate most often.

 

 

And this is all disregarding the fact that the non-qunari Qunari must find it rather offensive that only those who were born a specific race AND inside the Qun get to be referred to as the name of the culture they identify with and belong to.


It just doesn't make sense that an efficiency- and role-obsessed group would not have a name for their own race that is not also the name for the religion that their race happens to (for the moment) mainly comprise.  It would lead to too many instances of clarification, and they would almost immediately come up with a word, if only to avoid a bunch of elf converts going "Hey, I'm Qunari, too!"

[Mirrman70]

Sten saw the difference between elves and humans and dwarves. he even referred to them as such. they were still bas though. Bas means thing not necessarily a person. I assume that they just use human, elf and dwarf too refer to the races of non-qunari. It seems easier to just take their word than to make up their own.

[Iakus]

people new to the games won't understand the usage of the term kossith because it is most likely never going to be mentioned ever again in game. so just using qunari is most likely the best way to avoid confusion in the future.

That's how I do it.

 

Or, if that's still too complicated for people, we can just call them oxmen.  Or giants.

[mikeymoonshine]

That makes the least sense of all.  They are actively planning to take over the rest of Thedas, the population of which is far greater than that of their race.  At that point they will be forced to come up with a name for themselves besides just "qunari," or abandon the name "Qunari" for their culture.

 

I don't understand how that follows from what I said? You have yet to show why they would "have to" do this. At best you have pointed out that we don't fully understand how their society is run but that doesn't really justify making a mountain out of what could easily be a mole hill. 

 

 

 

No, I'm saying that if it's so unimportant to them, they wouldn't use the words at all in conversation.

 

and I have given you several explanations as to why they would as well as pointing out that "not important" doesn't necessarily mean they ignore the issue entirely. That would make no sense because we already have evidence that they don't ignore it. 

 

 

 

These are people who thought that "We can't leave until we get our fancy book back" was too complex/specific to the Qun for Hawke to understand.  They are not the type to pander to the worldviews of others out of convenience.

 

Then why do Ben-Hassrath spies exist? Their entire job involves fitting in and communicating with non qunari. Also I am pretty sure they kept it from Hawke because they didn't want the story to be widely known. Once the Arishok realized Hawke knew and was involved there was no "you wouldn't understand" about it. 

 

Also, the Ben-Hassrath and Antaam interracting with other races makes it more likely that they would have a specific, distinct word for their race, because they have would have to differentiate most often.

 

 

Why would they have to? 

 

 

 

And this is all disregarding the fact that the non-qunari Qunari must find it rather offensive that only those who were born a specific race AND inside the Qun get to be referred to as the name of the culture they identify with and belong to.

 

As I already told you qunari is not in fact the name for the race. There is no name for the race. All Qunari are Qunari. 

 

It's what people who are not of the qun generally call them because they do not understand but it isn't what they are actually called. 

 

 

 

It would lead to too many instances of clarification, and they would almost immediately come up with a word, if only to avoid a bunch of elf converts going "Hey, I'm Qunari, too!"

 

Qunari know that elf Qunari are Qunari so they wouldn't need to clarify that. Yes, it's confusing to outsiders but it seems to work fine for them and you haven't really shown why it wouldn't you just keep saying it wouldn't.