That's how I do it.
Or, if that's still too complicated for people, we can just call them oxmen. Or giants.
I don't understand how that follows from what I said? You have yet to show why they would "have to" do this. At best you have pointed out that we don't fully understand how their society is run but that doesn't really justify making a mountain out of what could easily be a mole hill.
Because they would clearly have to...? The Qunari population is now many times greater, and they have a vested interest in classifying everyone quickly and optimizing the roles everyone is assigned. They now need a word for their race, because "Qunari" just means everyone, now, and those individuals who are large, gray-skinned, and horned are the only group that can't be easily and quickly described with a single word that gets across everything we need to know about them as a group, physically.
and I have given you several explanations as to why they would as well as pointing out that "not important" doesn't necessarily mean they ignore the issue entirely. That would make no sense because we already have evidence that they don't ignore it.
Yes, but they seem to focus on it, exclusively. We have yet to see them group people based on anything other than "not belonging to the Qun" or their race, even though the latter is apparently not important to them.
Then why do Ben-Hassrath spies exist? Their entire job involves fitting in and communicating with non qunari. Also I am pretty sure they kept it from Hawke because they didn't want the story to be widely known. Once the Arishok realized Hawke knew and was involved there was no "you wouldn't understand" about it.
They exist to make conquering easier in the future. And the Arishok dropped that attitude because Hawke demonstrated that he/she did understand, and because the Arishok was in the middle of conquering a city.
Why would they have to?
Because they're dealing with spies, of various races, loyal to the Qun. They would need words to distinguish that this spy is an elf, and this one a human, and in Iron Bull's case, that this one is big, gray, and has horns.
As I already told you qunari is not in fact the name for the race. There is no name for the race. All Qunari are Qunari.
It's what people who are not of the qun generally call them because they do not understand but it isn't what they are actually called.
I'm pretty sure David Gaider has indicated otherwise.
Qunari know that elf Qunari are Qunari so they wouldn't need to clarify that. Yes, it's confusing to outsiders but it seems to work fine for them and you haven't really shown why it wouldn't you just keep saying it wouldn't.
Yes, but I'm saying that they would probably use race to distinguish strangers among the Qun, in much the same way we do in real life. It's a description of someone. So when someone nearby says "...oh, the new Arvaraad(or whatever)...etc..." and they need to clarify, saying "the short qunari" wouldn't really be clarification, because that could mean an elf or a dwarf or a qunari who just happens to be only human-sized. And while, in that example, many would not be confused, there are also many people who would.
Because they would clearly have to...? The Qunari population is now many times greater, and they have a vested interest in classifying everyone quickly and optimizing the roles everyone is assigned. They now need a word for their race, because "Qunari" just means everyone, now, and those individuals who are large, gray-skinned, and horned are the only group that can't be easily and quickly described with a single word that gets across everything we need to know about them as a group, physically.
There are other titles as well as Qunari, there is your role, there is Viddathari who are new converts (usually the other races are called that) and they probably refer to humas, elves and dwarves as exactly that if they need to. You seem to be saying they need it for their paperwork but I don't think that they do. If someone is of another race and that needs to be clarified then I would assume they do that and maybe if it isn't it means they are qunari Qunari? Now I have no idea if this is the case but it solves the problem does it not?
As for descriptions, I don't know if many descriptions within a Qunari society would need race references as they would be more likely to describe someone as their role anyway.
Yes, but they seem to focus on it, exclusively. We have yet to see them group people based on anything other than "not belonging to the Qun" or their race, even though the latter is apparently not important to them.
you seem massively hung up on this "not important" thing, I really don't think it is as important as you seem to think it is.
They exist to make conquering easier in the future. And the Arishok dropped that attitude because Hawke demonstrated that he/she did understand, and because the Arishok was in the middle of conquering a city.
and to do that they would have to.............. pander to the worldview of others, or at least appear to. That was my point. How is that not the same thing i just said but phrased differently? Yes the Arishok dropped the attitude because he realised Hawke already knew about it and it was no longer beneficial to keep it secret. Not because he thought it was too complicated for non Qunari to understand. Isabela stole a book, that book was important to the Qunari (for religious reasons), they weren't leaving without it. Not hard to grasp at all but probably better to keep a secret seeing as the tevinter Imperium really wanted that book.
Because they're dealing with spies, of various races, loyal to the Qun. They would need words to distinguish that this spy is an elf, and this one a human, and in Iron Bull's case, that this one is big, gray, and has horns.
elf, human, dwarf, Qunari, Vashoth or Tal-Vashoth or Qunari, Qunari, Qunari, Qunari. There are lots of ways to differentiate.
I'm pretty sure David Gaider has indicated otherwise.
Hmm, where?
"user@BioMaryKirby Is there a good way to to refer to said race that doesn't imply their religion/philosophy or rejection thereof? Am curious 
Nope! The Qunari don't need one, and the rest of Thedas sees all giants as the same. The only people who care are Tal-vashoth."
As I said, there is no name for the race specifically and it is wrong to say it is Qunari but you can call them Qunari because they are Qunari.
Yes, but I'm saying that they would probably use race to distinguish strangers among the Qun, in much the same way we do in real life. It's a description of someone. So when someone nearby says "...oh, the new Arvaraad(or whatever)...etc..." and they need to clarify, saying "the short qunari" wouldn't really be clarification, because that could mean an elf or a dwarf or a qunari who just happens to be only human-sized. And while, in that example, many would not be confused, there are also many people who would.
I doubt they describe people that way at all but maybe. They don't live as the rest of thedas does, they don't have the same social lives or connections. The distinction probably matters to the Tamassrans but probably not to anyone else, at least not much.
I don't know a whole lot about the Qunari, but I think that the Vashoth are people who simply left the Qun, while the Tal-Vashoth left the Qun and fight against the Qunari in some form or another, but I'm not sure.
That's how I understood it.
Anyone who left the Qun, or is a grey skinned horned giant born outside the Qun, is a Vashoth. If they actively oppose the Qun by attacking the Qunari, they're Tal-Vashoth.
And there's no racial name for the grey ones, because the Qunari don't acknowledge the race of those who follow the Qun. All that matters to them is whether you're a follower of their philosophy (a Qunari) or not.
The word Qunari is similar to the word Jewish. It can refer to either a ethnic or a religious group, and which depends on the context in which it is used.
It isn't that confusing, IMO.
The word Qunari is similar to the word Jewish. It can refer to either a ethnic or a religious group, and which depends on the context in which it is used.
It isn't that confusing, IMO.
Well you can only be Jewish by birth so not entirely comparable
Uh, no. People convert to Judaism all the time.
Excerpts taken from World of Thedas Volume 1 where the word Kossith is extensively used to refer to the race."There was a time when the kossith race prayed to animist gods.They were wild then, devot ed to a chaos that kept them fromgreatness. Then came Ashkaari Koslun, a great thinker whoseteachings molded the kossith into the godless, disciplined Qunari.""Tal-Vashoth usually stick together. Most are kossith. Since many in Thedas see kossith andthink 'Qunari', the Tal-Vashoth are often forced into a life of banditry and mercenary work,unaccepted and unable to find safer work.""Elven broodmothers give birth to shrieks.Dwarven broodmothers spawn genlocks. Humans birth hurlocksand kossith birth ogres.""Spawned from kossith broodmothers, ogres are huge and broad with long, muscular arms and massivecurved horns atop their heads, which they use to viciously charge attackers.""Ogre: One of the massive, horned breed of darkspawn derivedfrom the kossith."That should put a stop to all the pointless attempts at corrections I hope. Use Kossith to refer to the race if you wish, World of Thedas does.
Uh, no. People convert to Judaism all the time.
A rare and complicated affair and converts are often not recognised as real Jews.
This is from another thread I posted in. Use Kossith if you want. It's more accurate than Qunari.
The fact that the writers themselves have said that it is wrong is apparently irrelevant to you people. 
You are allowed to use Kossith, they don't mind as long as you don't tell other people they are wrong for not using it (which you just did).
The fact that the writers themselves have said that it is wrong is apparently irrelevant to you people.
It seems the fact that it is not wrong as proven with the use of the word in the World of Thedas, constantly flies over your head. The word can be used to denote the race. Qunari remains inaccurate.
Guest_Faerunner_*
The word Qunari is similar to the word Jewish. It can refer to either a ethnic or a religious group, and which depends on the context in which it is used.
It isn't that confusing, IMO.
Yeah it is. Just with like real Judaism, it has many shades of grey.
The Qunari race can refer to the genetic "grey giant" race only, a member of the "grey giant" race that also observes the Qun philosophy/religion, and non-members of the "grey giant" race who observe the Qun philosophy/religion. The word itself is too vague to use on its own and has to be elaborated. When you use "Qunari" in a sentence, you have to clarify that you mean the grey giant race alone, the grey giant race and follower of the Qun, or a follower of the Qun who isn't part of the grey giant race.
Judaism is filled with blurred lines too.
It's VERY common for people who self-identify as Jewish to clarify what they mean by that. To explain whether they're just genetically Jewish, "culturally Jewish," and/or followers of the religion. "My mom/dad is Jewish," "My parents are Jewish but I'm not," "I was raised Jewish but don't practice anymore," "I got Bar/Bat-Mitzvahed but haven't gone to synagogue since," "I'm culturally but not religiously Jewish," "I converted to Judaism," and so on and so forth.
Well you can only be Jewish by birth so not entirely comparable
False. As someone else here already said, there are many people who convert to Judaism and are accepted by the community.
A rare and complicated affair and converts are often not recognised as real Jews.
And there are also people who were "born Jewish" who also aren't recognized as "real Jews" because they don't practice the religion.
It all depends on who you ask. Jewish people themselves don't all agree on what it means to be Jewish. Jewish scholars, historians, sociologists, religious leaders, etc. are debating to this day. You'll get a different answer depending on who you ask. Some people say all you need is a Jewish mom, some will say a Jewish parent of either gender (even though Jewish "blood" is often considered matralinial), you just need to get your Bar or Bat-Mitzvah, some day you just need to celebrate the occasional holiday (like one day of Hanukah a year), some will say you have to attend synagogue and observe every holiday (even the unfun ones), and some have different ideas of how much of the religion you have to follow. Some Orthodox Jews look down Conservative and Reformed Jews as "not real Jews" because they don't follow the Talmud to the letter, etc.
Like I said, it is confusing.
It seems the fact that it is not wrong as proven with the use of the word in the World of Thedas, constantly flies over your head. The word can be used to denote the race. Qunari remains inaccurate.
http://forum.bioware...hoth/?bioware=1
http://dgaider.tumbl...wain-shall-meet
So yes you can call them Kossith but it is not more accurate than Qunari, are you really saying you know better than the writers do? Just because you read WOT.
And there are also people who were "born Jewish" who also aren't recognized as "real Jews" because they don't practice the religion.
It all depends on who you ask. Jewish people themselves don't all agree on what it means to be Jewish. Jewish scholars, historians, sociologists, religious leaders, etc. are debating to this day. You'll get a different answer depending on who you ask. Some people say all you need is a Jewish mom, some will say a Jewish parent of either gender (even though Jewish "blood" is often considered matralinial), you just need to get your Bar or Bat-Mitzvah, some day you just need to celebrate the occasional holiday (like one day of Hanukah a year), some will say you have to attend synagogue and observe every holiday (even the unfun ones), and some have different ideas of how much of the religion you have to follow. Some Orthodox Jews look down Conservative and Reformed Jews as "not real Jews" because they don't follow the Talmud to the letter, etc.
Like I said, it is confusing.
I wasn't really disputing that. The "people convert all the time" comment was wrong. Didn't have much stake in the argument that went with it. BTW non of that makes my comment about conversion incorrect.
Anyway I will but in and say you are taking the comparison to literally, it's just meant to show that these kinds of words can be used to mean more than one thing. It doesn't have to 100% match up to how the word "jewish" is used.
So yes you can call them Kossith but it is not more accurate than Qunari, are you really saying you know better than the writers do? Just because you read WOT.
Sigh... Gaider said all that and yet it's there in WoT which was released after. Why would that imply that I'm saying that I'm better than the developers, other than the fact that Kossith does refer to the race, that it can be used as such?
Kossith = race, whether you like it or not. The word isn't used to refer to the race anymore because no one knows of it but that doesn't make it wrong.
Qunari = the followers of Qun. Qunari is used by the people who lack knowledge to distinguish between the race and the religion.
No Qunari will ever tolerate another who does not follow the Qun, be it Vashoth or Tal-Vashoth, to be referred to as Qunari. In the same way, no Tal-Vashoth will ever want to be called a Qunari. The reason for this is because according to them, the word has only one meaning, which is "follower of Qun". If people refer to them both as Qunari, it is out of their ignorance, not because they are correct. For example, you can bet your ass Iron Bull will correct you if you call him a Qunari in-game.
A rare and complicated affair and converts are often not recognised as real Jews.
Ever hear of Viddathari?
Kossith = race, whether you like it or not. The word isn't used to refer to the race anymore because no one knows of it but that doesn't make it wrong.
According to Mary's tweet on this page, Kossith refers to the old Qunari culture that predates the Qun. It may not even refer to their race.
So in short, we don't know how appropriate (if at all) that word is to describe the Qunari race.
According to Mary's tweet on this page, Kossith refers to the old Qunari culture that predates the Qun. It may not even refer to their race.
So in short, we don't know how appropriate (if at all) that word is to describe the Qunari race.
We do. Look at the paragraphs I cited from WoT. Unless WoT is not the most accurate collection of lore by Bioware as advertised, it does mean that Kossith denotes to the race.
Guest_Faerunner_*
The word Qunari is similar to the word Jewish. It can refer to either a ethnic or a religious group, and which depends on the context in which it is used.
It isn't that confusing, IMO.
Yeah it is.
Well you can only be Jewish by birth so not entirely comparable
False.
Uh, no. People convert to Judaism all the time.
Not "all the time," but it is becoming more and more common and more and more accepted.
Regardless, this is correct because Judaism is not 100% genetic.
A rare and complicated affair and converts are often not recognised as real Jews.
a) It's becoming more and more common.
b ) It's a "complicated affair" to determine who's serious about converting and who isn't, so people can say with confidence "S/he's Jewish now."
c) People who're born Jewish or raised Jewish are "often not recognized as real Jews" too based on different criteria too, because the genetic/cultural/religion has such vague and overlapping criteria that different people can point to different parts and say "That doesn't count."
The person who mentioned people who convert to Judaism said so in response to the person who said "you can only be Jewish by birth," which is in fact false. At least that person was making a statement.
I wasn't really disputing that. The "people convert all the time" comment was wrong. Didn't have much stake in the argument that went with it. BTW non of that makes my comment about conversion incorrect.
Then what the hell were you disputing?
At least the person who mentioned conversions had a point to make that was relevant to the conversation. Quote #1 says Qunari are like Jews in that they can refer to people of an ethnic and/or religious group. Quote #2 said not true because Judaism is only genetic. Quote #3 pointed out this is not true people because people do, in fact, convert to Judaism. Then you say... what? "Not true that it's common" and "converts often not seen as real Jews" and this supposed to accomplish, what? That conversions aren't true like Quote #3 says? That Judaism really is purely genetic like Quote #2 says, therefor Quote #1 is wrong?
Are you just nit-picking or argue semantics just so you can feel right even though it has nothing to do with the overall topic?
Anyway I will but in and say you are taking the comparison to literally, it's just meant to show that these kinds of words can be used to mean more than one thing. It doesn't have to 100% match up to how the word "jewish" is used.
Which is exactly what Quote #1 said, to which Quote #2 said "not true," to which Quote #3 said "not true and this is why," to which you claimed was not true based on... what? Semantics? Who cares if conversions don't happen "all the time" (which itself is such a vague statement it's hard to pinpoint it as "wrong"), they still happen often enough and are accepted by enough of the community to render them valid, thus rendering Quote #1's statement that Qunari and Judaism are similar in that they can refer to genetics, religion, or both, as valid.
And now you're saying Quote #1 is true even though you nit-picked at Quote #3 for no reason?
Sigh... Gaider said all that and yet it's there in WoT which was released after. Why would that imply that I'm saying that I'm better than the developers, other than the fact that Kossith does refer to the race, that it can be used as such?
Kossith = race, whether you like it or not. The word isn't used to refer to the race anymore because no one knows of it but that doesn't make it wrong.
Qunari = the followers of Qun. Qunari is used by the people who lack knowledge to distinguish between the race and the religion.
No Qunari will ever tolerate another who does not follow the Qun, be it Vashoth or Tal-Vashoth, to be referred to as Qunari. In the same way, no Tal-Vashoth will ever want to be called a Qunari. The reason for this is because according to them, the word has only one meaning, which is "follower of Qun". If people refer to them both as Qunari, it is out of their ignorance, not because they are correct. For example, you can bet your ass Iron Bull will correct you if you call him a Qunari in-game.
Well has Gaider changed his position? Has Mary?
It implies it because you said qunari was incorrect and Kossith was more correct despite the fact that several of the devs have stated that this is wrong and that it annoys them when people say that.
If it's not used to refer to the race any more then it's not the word for the race, that is how language works.
I agree but there is no word so qunari will do.
Iron Bull is Ben-Hassrath so no he wont correct you.
Ever hear of Viddathari?
The Qunari actively seek converts.
They've also said that people are free to use Kossith on the forums so that we wouldn't get slapfights such as these. You should just be aware that you are in fact not more wise to the world by calling them Kossith. And the world will never acknowledge it as a term.
The Qunari actively seek converts.
Converts can't become Qunari though, you have to be raised Qunari to be Qunari.
In that way it is similar, since you brought up the "not being recognized as real Jews".
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