117 réponses à ce sujet

[mikeymoonshine]

 

Then what the hell were you disputing?

 

The claim that people convert to Judaism "all the time", did you forget how to read? 

 

 

At least the person who mentioned conversions had a point to make that was relevant to the conversation. 

 

But sadly incorrect. 

 

 

 

 Quote #1 says Qunari are like Jews in that they can refer to people of an ethnic and/or religious group. Quote #2 said not true because Judaism is only genetic. Quote #3 pointed out this is not true people because people do, in fact, convert to Judaism. Then you say... what? "Not true that it's common" and "converts often not seen as real Jews" and this supposed to accomplish, what? That conversions aren't true like Quote #3 says? That Judaism really is purely genetic like Quote #2 says, therefor Quote #1 is wrong?

 

Are you just nit-picking or argue semantics just so you can feel right even though it has nothing to do with the overall topic?

 

You do realize how incredibly over the top you are being about this, right? It was incorrect, I corrected it. I'm sorry that irritated you but that's your problem, not mine.

 

 

 

Which is exactly what Quote #1 said

 

No it's not.   it's a clarification of a point that some people seem to have failed to understand, not a repetition of that point. 

 

 

 

Who cares if conversions don't happen "all the time" (which itself is such a vague statement it's hard to pinpoint it as "wrong"),

 

 

It's not really that vague actually. 

 

 

 

And now you're saying Quote #1 is true even though you nit-picked at Quote #3 for no reason?

 

Did you understand anything I said? 

[TurretSyndrome]

Well has Gaider changed his position? Has Mary? 

 

It implies it because you said qunari was incorrect and Kossith was more correct despite the fact that several of the devs have stated that this is wrong and that it annoys them when people say that. 

 

If it's not used to refer to the race any more then it's not the word for the race, that is how language works. 

 

I agree but there is no word so qunari will do. 

 

Iron Bull is Ben-Hassrath so no he wont correct you. 

 

But Qunari is incorrect. The lore is established in such a way that Qunari only means one thing and that is follower of Qun, nothing more. Kossith however is the name of the race and I base this on what was written in WoT which came after Gaider's posts, which he had a hand in writing. Are you saying WoT is wrong?

 

The use of any word does not go hand in hand with accuracy. A thousand ignorant humans in Thedas using Qunari to refer to the race does not make it right. You can use it to call a Tal-Vashoth, a Qunari, but it isn't right.

 

And also, Iron Bull is Ben-Hassrath? I thought he's a Tal-Vashoth leader. In any case, it doesn't negate my argument, it actually solidifies it. He wouldn't correct you because as a Ben-Hassrath, he would be a follower of the Qun which means calling him Qunari is correct. Take Maraas from DA 2, he'll never acknowledge being called a Qunari, neither will the Arishok when you refer to the Tal-Vashoth mercenaries in the game as Qunari. The use of the word is irrelevant to what it really means.

[mikeymoonshine]

Converts can't become Qunari though, you have to be raised Qunari to be Qunari.

 

In that way it is similar, since you brought up the "not being recognized as real Jews".

 

But they can. As far as I am aware they are seen as different because the from the outside and they may not be considered fully Qunari at least until they fully integrate into the society but they are Qunari and are treated the same as any other. 

 

A Viddathari can even become Arishok, Arigena or Ariqun. 

[andy6915]

Iron Bull is Ben-Hassrath so no he wont correct you. 

 

No he's not, he's confirmed to be Tal-Vashoth through and through.

[Herr Uhl]

No he's not, he's confirmed to be Tal-Vashoth through and through.

From the interview with Patrick Weekes: The official reason The Iron Bull joins the Inquisition is that his Qunari superiors want to know what the Inquisition is doing.

If he has superiors among the Qunari, I'd doubt he is Tal-Vashoth.
 

But they can. As far as I am aware they are seen as different because the from the outside and they may not be considered fully Qunari at least until they fully integrate into the society but they are Qunari and are treated the same as any other. 
 
A Viddathari can even become Arishok, Arigena or Ariqun.

I may be misunderstanding it, but I thought that even if they were to become Ariqun, they'd still technically be Viddathari. If I'm wrong then no big.

[TurretSyndrome]

No he's not, he's confirmed to be Tal-Vashoth through and through.

 

That's what I was puzzled about. I was like "How the hell did Iron Bull become Ben Hassrath?". But now that I think about it, I think it would be quite an interesting twist if it were so.

[mikeymoonshine]

But Qunari is incorrect. The lore is established in such a way that Qunari only means one thing and that is follower of Qun, nothing more. Kossith however is the name of the race and I base this on what was written in WoT which came after Gaider's posts, which he had a hand in writing. Are you saying WoT is wrong?

 

The use of any word does not go hand in hand with accuracy. A thousand ignorant humans in Thedas using Qunari to refer to the race does not make it right. You can use it to call a Tal-Vashoth, a Qunari, but it isn't right.

 

And also, Iron Bull is Ben-Hassrath? I thought he's a Tal-Vashoth leader. In any case, it doesn't negate my argument, it actually solidifies it. He wouldn't correct you because as a Ben-Hassrath, he would be a follower of the Qun which means calling him Qunari is correct. Take Maraas from DA 2, he'll never acknowledge being called a Qunari, neither will the Arishok when you refer to the Tal-Vashoth mercenaries in the game as Qunari. The use of the word is irrelevant to what it really means.

 

Oh I see, turn my argument back on me ofc. 

 

No I'm not saying WOT is wrong I am saying the devs have spoken on this allot and made their feelings clear. If Gaider or Mary writes a blog retracting all that stuff then fine but until then I am going with what they said. 

 

There is no name for the qunari race. Kossith is no longer used, words fall out of use  and no it's not comparable to people getting it wrong. The Qunari themselves do not use that word, nobody does!

 

Both words are wrong but one will be used in game and the other will not be. 

 

He's under cover as Tal-Vashoth. http://www.dragonage...e-the-iron-bull

[andy6915]

That's what I was puzzled about. I was like "How the hell did Iron Bull become Ben Hassrath?". But now that I think about it, I think it would be quite an interesting twist if it were so.

It doesn't make any sense. He is apparently a mercenary and has sex with anything he thinks can take it purely for pleasure (which the Qun looks very harshly on). He has sex for fun, and seems to like and revel in chaos. The sex thing alone is strong reason to think he's left the Qun behind, as no Qunari would tolerate one of their own doing that. He pretty much stands in complete opposition in every way someone can be in opposition to. He seemingly does everything the Qun hates. How the hell is he still Qunari?

[Herr Uhl]

That's what I was puzzled about. I was like "How the hell did Iron Bull become Ben Hassrath?". But now that I think about it, I think it would be quite an interesting twist if it were so.

 

He was a Ben Hassrath at Seheron and burned out, so his superiors decided that he'd work as a mercenary leader and pass information back about life in Thedas.

[mikeymoonshine]

 

I may be misunderstanding it, but I thought that even if they were to become Ariqun, they'd still technically be Viddathari. If I'm wrong then no big.

 

I'm not sure if they have made that clear or not. "Viddathari" means something like "new convert" so it implies that one would eventually stop being Viddathari but I dunno if it actually works like that. You may have a point there although I don't think Viddathari are actually viewed as lesser Qunari. 

[mikeymoonshine]

It doesn't make any sense. He is apparently a mercenary and has sex with anything he thinks can take it purely for pleasure (which the Qun looks very harshly on). He has sex for fun, and seems to like and revel in chaos. The sex thing alone is strong reason to think he's left the Qun behind, as no Qunari would tolerate one of their own doing that. He pretty much stands in complete opposition in every way someone can be in opposition to. He seemingly does everything the Qun hates. How the hell is he still Qunari?

 

The Qun seems to allow spies to do whatever it takes to keep their cover. Someone who behaves like most Qunari seem to would make a pretty awful spy after all. 

 

Also he's slightly de-converted, he enjoys his life outside the Qun as much as he enjoyed being part of it. 

[andy6915]

Oh I see, turn my argument back on me ofc. 

 

No I'm not saying WOT is wrong I am saying the devs have spoken on this allot and made their feelings clear. If Gaider or Mary writes a blog retracting all that stuff then fine but until then I am going with what they said. 

 

There is no name for the qunari race. Kossith is no longer used, words fall out of use  and no it's not comparable to people getting it wrong. The Qunari themselves do not use that word, nobody does!

 

Both words are wrong but one will be used in game and the other will not be. 

 

He's under cover as Tal-Vashoth. http://www.dragonage...e-the-iron-bull

 

Son of a...

 

Well then. That just totally changed my perspective on him. I thought he was a true Tal-Vashoth, not just a Qunari pretending to be one. But from his enjoyment of sex, I think he's doing a little too well at getting into the role of a Tal-Vashoth.

[TurretSyndrome]

Oh I see, turn my argument back on me ofc. 

 

No I'm not saying WOT is wrong I am saying the devs have spoken on this allot and made their feelings clear. If Gaider or Mary writes a blog retracting all that stuff then fine but until then I am going with what they said. 

 

There is no name for the qunari race. Kossith is no longer used, words fall out of use  and no it's not comparable to people getting it wrong. The Qunari themselves do not use that word, nobody does!

 

 

The Qunari, who are the followers of Qun, do not use it because they do not believe that it has a use anymore. Their only association is with their religion and nothing else. They have abandoned it just as they have abandoned their previous way of life. Again, not using it does not make it wrong, simply unused. 

 

What the devs have said before WoT does not completely go against what is in WoT, but you have to realize one thing; Kossith = the race. It was extensively used instead of Qunari to denote to the race, there is no more proof than that, or is needed as far as the accuracy of the word is concerned. Previously, it was assumed to be a word that denoted to another religion or a group within the race. 

 

I will say that the argument has indeed turned against you   . Also, please refrain from spoiling DA:I characters. I didn't want to know about Iron Bull what you've posted. 

[Herr Uhl]

 

Well then. That just totally changed my perspective on him. I thought he was a true Tal-Vashoth, not just a Qunari pretending to be one. But from his enjoyment of sex, I think he's doing a little too well at getting into the role of a Tal-Vashoth.

 

Yes, and that is likely going to be his character arc. Does he break away from the Qun or stay in it?

[andy6915]

Yes, and that is likely going to be his character arc. Does he break away from the Qun or stay in it?

So like this game's version of "hardening"? Harden him against the Qun?

 

 

My female Vashoth is going to have some fun doing that.

[mikeymoonshine]

The Qunari, who are the followers of Qun, do not use it because they do not believe that it has a use anymore. Their only association is with their religion and nothing else. They have abandoned it just as they have abandoned their previous way of life. Again, not using it does not make it wrong, simply unused. 

 

What the devs have said before WoT does not completely go against what is in WoT, but you have to realize one thing; Kossith = the race. It was extensively used instead of Qunari to denote to the race, there is no more proof than that, or is needed as far as the accuracy of the word is concerned. Previously, it was assumed to be a word that denoted to another religion or a group within the race. 

 

I will say that the argument has indeed turned against you   . Also, please refrain from spoiling DA:I characters. I didn't want to know about Iron Bull what you've posted. 

 

But referring to a group by a name that has completely fallen out of use would be wrong. Maybe not technically incorrect because dictionaries generally keep old words but still wrong. Does Thedas have dictionaries? 

 

It's funny because I never actually argued that Qunari was right, I just said it was an acceptable description to use because that is what the devs said, that is what people will call you in game and that will be the name displayed when you pick that race. It won't be pick Kossith it will be pick Qunari. So no the argument didn't turn against me. 

 

Also with all due respect you brought him up and then asked me about it. This is the fan forum, it's not the best place to avoid spoilers. I did not post huge story spoilers in here, just a few tid bits and a link to a character profile that you did not have to read. Obviously I don't want to spoil it for people but we can't put everything in spoiler tags. Most people here have read the information given and it get's discussed in many of the threads on this forum. 

 

I will try to avoid saying any more about the story though. 

[TurretSyndrome]

But referring to a group by a name that has completely fallen out of use would be wrong. Maybe not technically incorrect because dictionaries generally keep old words but still wrong. Does Thedas have dictionaries? 

 

It's funny because I never actually argued that Qunari was right, I just said it was an acceptable description to use because that is what the devs said, that is what people will call you in game and that will be the name displayed when you pick that race. It won't be pick Kossith it will be pick Qunari. So no the argument didn't turn against me. 

 

 

The word is not wrong, and to use it to refer to the race since it's more accurate than what's presented, and that's not wrong either. Your argument was that Kossith is wrong, so I have provided you proof that it isn't and it's inclusion in WoT proves it. You have so far shown me quotes from Gaider which were said before WoT. Qunari remains to be the inaccurate word. Kossith may be unused now but it is technically more accurate. 

 

When I choose a Kossith to play as in DA:I, I'm sure everyone will call me a Qunari, despite my character not having any correlation to the religion and I'm sure I'll have the option to correct them, just as people like Maraas will correct us if we call them Qunari. Again, just because Kossith is not in use doesn't make it wrong or irrelevant, especially in DA since the Qunari want nothing to do with a racial identifier. If you think the usage of the word affects it's status, go ahead, but I disagree.

 

As for the character details, sorry but that needs to have spoiler tags, we are not discussing characters and when I brought up Iron Bull, I didn't know anything beyond that he's a Tal-Vashoth leader. If you wanted to say more I would have liked if you warned me before, that's all I'm saying.

[mikeymoonshine]

The word is not wrong, and to use it to refer to the race since it's more accurate than what's presented, and that's not wrong either. Your argument was that Kossith is wrong, so I have provided you proof that it isn't and it's inclusion in WoT proves it. You have so far shown me quotes from Gaider which were said before WoT. Qunari remains to be the inaccurate word. Kossith may be unused now but it is technically more accurate. 

 

When I choose a Kossith to play as in DA:I, I'm sure everyone will call me a Qunari, despite my character not having any correlation to the religion and I'm sure I'll have the option to correct them, just as people like Maraas will correct us if we call them Qunari. Again, just because Kossith is not in use doesn't make it wrong or irrelevant, especially in DA since the Qunari want nothing to do with a racial identifier. If you think the usage of the word affects it's status, go ahead, but I disagree.

 

As for the character details, sorry but that needs to have spoiler tags, we are not discussing characters and when I brought up Iron Bull, I didn't know anything beyond that he's a Tal-Vashoth leader. If you wanted to say more I would have liked if you warned me before, that's all I'm saying.

 

 

No my argument is that it is not more correct than Qunari because it is an almost completely unknown word in Thedas. To say that the fact that it isn't used is not relevant is to deny the very point of language (to communicate). It's reasonable from a language perspective to reject the word and opt for something else or nothing. 

 

You do realise that words get their meanings from how they are used? If many people view the horned people as Qunari then who are we to say they are wrong? We can point out that they are from a Qunari perspective but that really doesn't make a difference to how it will go. 

 

You will be able to correct them but I doubt you will be able to define your pc as kossith in game. Your pc most likely won't know that word. 

 

Yes a word that isn't in use is almost completely irrelevant. It's only relevant to people who know it was once in use and even then it's still just a word that fell out of use. 

 

Then I guess we disagree, words are defined by their usage, they mean what they used for, these meanings can even be changed because people use the "wrong". So yes I believe usage effects the status of a word. 

 

If you did not wish to discuss a characters story you should not have brought him up. As I said i will refrain from discussing it any farther but you have to take some responsibility for yourself if you truly wish to avoid even the tiniest story details. 

[TurretSyndrome]

It doesn't matter how well the word is known in Thedas, it doesn't change it's nature. It's like saying a flower is only poisonous until someone says it is. That goes for both Kossith and Qunari. We are discussing the nature of the words and I've given you proof that it is indeed the identifier for the race, yet you persist on saying it is wrong simply based on the lack of usage. 

 

The kind of usage you're speaking of now is context. You keep saying that words not used are wrong. Kossith isn't wrong, it's unused. Qunari is wrong by nature but is used in a context where it refers to the race. The word in itself is not a racial identifier, Kossith is. Words can get new meaning depending on the context they are being used, but you just outright seem to believe that the usage is the only lifeline for the word(otherwise you wouldn't call Kossith wrong). 

 

[mikeymoonshine]

It doesn't matter how well the word is known in Thedas, it doesn't change it's nature. It's like saying a flower is only poisonous until someone says it is. 

 

No, it's not like saying that at all.  a words nature is how it is used, otherwise it's just noise. Your comparing something that can be changed by people to something that can't, that's like the most dishonest comparison ever. 

 

 

 

That goes for both Kossith and Qunari. We are discussing the nature of the words and I've given you proof that it is indeed the identifier for the race, yet you persist on saying it is wrong simply based on the lack of usage. 

 

No! I'm saying that it is not more correct than qunari as an identifier. This is verging on strawmanning now, if you wish to argue with yourself then go ahead but don't drag me into it. 

 

 

 

The kind of usage you're speaking of now is context. You keep saying that words not used are wrong. Kossith isn't wrong, it's unused.

 

I guess I could have been clearer on that part. In my subjective opinion using it is wrong because it is an outdated term that nobody knows and therefore not all that useful as a descriptive word and incredibly confusing to an outsider. More confusing than if you just didn't use it. it's not up to me though, that's just how I feel about it. 

 

 

 

Qunari is wrong by nature but is used in a context where it refers to the race. The word in itself is not a racial identifier, Kossith is. Words can get new meaning depending on the context they are being used, but you just outright seem to believe that the usage is the only lifeline for the word(otherwise you wouldn't call Kossith wrong). 

 

No but it's acceptable to use it seeing as there isn't one in use. That it what they define themselves as so all you need to do is clarify that you are talking about the race of people who form the majority of the Qun and not the Qunari as a whole. This is acceptable. 

 

I pointed out that words can get new meanings to explain why how words are used is relevant. That's all  really meant by that, you shouldn't take all my examples as arguments.

 

Hmm, well it's not just usage we are talking about. There is also the fact that there is little knowledge of the word and the fact that the word was rejected by the people it describes as a description of them.  

 

So that's actually three lifelines it doesn't have going for it. It's not like it's some scientific word or meaning of a word that is rarely used. It's completely out dated and the product of a previous society.

 

look I get your point and I think allot of our disagreement is about what we prioritise, I doubt we will ever agree on this. 

[Master Shiori]

 

When I choose a Kossith to play as in DA:I, I'm sure everyone will call me a Qunari, despite my character not having any correlation to the religion and I'm sure I'll have the option to correct them, just as people like Maraas will correct us if we call them Qunari. Again, just because Kossith is not in use doesn't make it wrong or irrelevant, especially in DA since the Qunari want nothing to do with a racial identifier. If you think the usage of the word affects it's status, go ahead, but I disagree.

 

 

You won't because, outside of the few members of the priesthood, nobody knows what Kossith means, including your character. It's a word that nobody uses. Anyone who leaves the Qun is a Vashoth or Tal-Vashoth. Anyone who follows the Qun is a Qunari. 

[TurretSyndrome]

You won't because, outside of the few members of the priesthood, nobody knows what Kossith means, including your character. It's a word that nobody uses. Anyone who leaves the Qun is a Vashoth or Tal-Vashoth. Anyone who follows the Qun is a Qunari. 

 

When I say I'll correct it, I was talking about correcting someone who'd call me a Qunari by saying I'm not. I am well aware of the fact that Kossith will not be there for use. What I know about the race is my own knowledge, player knowledge. My character won't know anything about it until they actually find information on it in the game which I doubt they will. 

 

No, it's not like saying that at all.  a words nature is how it is used, otherwise it's just noise. Your comparing something that can be changed by people to something that can't, that's like the most dishonest comparison ever. 

No! I'm saying that it is not more correct than qunari as an identifier. This is verging on strawmanning now, if you wish to argue with yourself then go ahead but don't drag me into it. 

I guess I could have been clearer on that part. In my subjective opinion using it is wrong because it is an outdated term that nobody knows and therefore not all that useful as a descriptive word and incredibly confusing to an outsider. More confusing than if you just didn't use it. it's not up to me though, that's just how I feel about it. 

No but it's acceptable to use it seeing as there isn't one in use. That it what they define themselves as so all you need to do is clarify that you are talking about the race of people who form the majority of the Qun and not the Qunari as a whole. This is acceptable. 

I pointed out that words can get new meanings to explain why how words are used is relevant. That's all  really meant by that, you shouldn't take all my examples as arguments.

Hmm, well it's not just usage we are talking about. There is also the fact that there is little knowledge of the word and the fact that the word was rejected by the people it describes as a description of them.  

So that's actually three lifelines it doesn't have going for it. It's not like it's some scientific word or meaning of a word that is rarely used. It's completely out dated and the product of a previous society.

look I get your point and I think allot of our disagreement is about what we prioritise, I doubt we will ever agree on this. 

 

The reason it is being rejected by the people that it describes is because they wish to be described as part of their religion. This is exactly what I'm talking about. You are being persistent in saying that the word has nothing going for it despite my giving you proof and reminding you that that's what it is being used for. Who cares what Thedas prioritizes to use, they barely know anything about the race and anything about their own world beyond their continent. Do you take everything they say at face value? Just because the followers of Qun do not want to be associated to the term does not make it any less right. What if one day humanity wishes to define itself through the name of a religion than by a race, does that make them any less human? The ones that belong to the race either aren't aware of it, or are aware of it but do not see any reason to use it because they follow this religion which to them is everything they ever need. That doesn't make the word lose it's meaning or accuracy.

 

Ugh... You know what, let's just leave it as a disagreement. There are other points in your post I would tackle but I'm getting tired of this. I will say though, I suggest not bringing up those quotes from Gaider all the time, they don't really help. 

[Herr Uhl]

When I say I'll correct it, I was talking about correcting someone who'd call me a Qunari by saying I'm not. I am well aware of the fact that Kossith will not be there for use. What I know about the race is my own knowledge, player knowledge. My character won't know anything about it until they actually find information on it in the game which I doubt they will. 

 

I'm pretty sure you'll be able to say that you're Vashoth.

[mikeymoonshine]

The reason it is being rejected by the people that it describes is because they wish to be described as part of their religion. This is exactly what I'm talking about. You are being persistent in saying that the word has nothing going for it despite my giving you proof and reminding you that that's what it is being used for. Who cares what Thedas prioritizes to use, they barely know anything about the race and anything about their own world beyond their continent. Do you take everything they say at face value? Just because the followers of Qun do not want to be associated to the term does not make it any less right. What if one day humanity wishes to define itself through the name of a religion than by a race, does that make them any less human? The ones that belong to the race either aren't aware of it, or are aware of it but do not see any reason to use it because they follow this religion which to them is everything they ever need. That doesn't make the word lose it's meaning or accuracy.

 

Ugh... You know what, let's just leave it as a disagreement. There are other points in your post I would tackle but I'm getting tired of this. I will say though, I suggest not bringing up those quotes from Gaider all the time, they don't really help. 

 

Why they rejected it is irrelevant to the fact that they did. If a group does not wish to identify by your identifier then the identifier loses a considerable amount of relevance. 

 

I just don't think your "proof" makes much difference to anything. 

 

If your going to ignore the language used in Thedas that's fine but that's going to create confusion. I use the terms in the games when talking about them because that is the language of thedas. It has nothing to do with taking anything at face value. 

 

If all of humanity wanted that then yes because the word human would no longer be relevant to anyone. 

 

Why are you asking all these silly questions? I have already given you my reasoning. If nobody uses or even knows the word then it's not really useful or all that relevant. Use it if you wish but it's not really any more accurate than anything else because it is completely out dated and almost forgotten.