6397 réponses à ce sujet

[mikeymoonshine]

There is no healing outside of focus mode, and support is tucked away on a backburner in spirit with barely any talents to its name.

 

Do you have a source for these claims?

 

In my OP you ca view the spirit tree from the demo. 

 

 

here it is!

 

As you can see healing is in the description and two spells in this tree look an awful lot like healing spells. We have not had a good look at all the spells and we do not know what they all do. We also have not seen the final trees so I am interested to know where you get your info from. 

[Gamemako]

It's actually 4 instead of 6. If you are counting specializations then it is 5 instead of 7.

That would not be correct. There are only 2 non-weapon trees, plus weapon tree, plus spec -- 4 trees in any build. The other 3 are 2 specs and a second weapon you won't use. DA2 had 2 weapon trees, 4 other trees, and 3 specs pick 2 -- drop one weapon tree and one spec and you'd have 7 trees. 4 vs. 7.

They may have said active abilities, which is again what I was talking about earlier -- how they came to pare down the players' options. We know for a fact that the total number of talents+passives+abilities is lower, as 250 is less than the exactly 270 player options in DA2. From the E3 demo, Adhin estimated an average 13.5 talent points per basic tree and 10 per spec, as I recall, which made 84*3=252 talents -- in line what what they had told us.

//EDIT:
 

As you can see healing is in the description and two spells in this tree look an awful lot like healing spells. We have not had a good look at all the spells and we do not know what they all do. We also have not seen the final trees so I am interested to know where you get your info from.

The bottom one is the focus ability (same in all trees), and it is clearly a healing ability. What other one do you think is a heal?

//EDIT 2: To clarify, the ones on the right are definitely Barrier and Dispel Magic. I don't see how you're getting healing out of the two on the left.

//EDIT 3: Oh yeah, herpderp, the bottom left is Mind Blast. Almost forgot. So you must be talking about the top left, which... uhh... that's healing?

[mikeymoonshine]

 The bottom one is the focus ability (same in all trees), and it is clearly a healing ability. What other one do you think is a heal?

//EDIT 2: To clarify, the ones on the right are definitely Barrier and Dispel Magic. I don't see how you're getting healing out of the two on the left.

//EDIT 3: Oh yeah, herpderp, the bottom left is Mind Blast. Almost forgot. So you must be talking about the top left, which... uhh... that's healing?

 

When did they say the bottom spells would be the focus abilities? 

 

Hmm I had forgotten about "Dispel Magic" The symbol on the hand looked more like a cross to me and it is the same colour as the other heal looking spell

 

Spirit Healer Icon from DA2

 

Dispel Magic from DA2

 

 

Ofc It could be Dispel magic and that would also fit. 

[Gamemako]

When did they say the bottom spells would be the focus abilities? 
 
Hmm I had forgotten about "Dispel Magic" The symbol on the hand looked more like a cross to me and it is the same colour as the other heal looking spell

It is definitely dispel magic -- it is even mentioned in the description (spells that disrupt hostile magic) and is an essential Spirit spell.

As for focus abilities, all ones we've seen used are at the bottoms of trees (Firestorm, Haste). Hell, the devs stated that healing magic would be highly limited. Before we even saw these trees, the going assumption was that it would be tied to focus, and the tree just gave all the evidence we needed to put that to bed.

//EDIT: And at this point, it needs to be reiterated: DA2 had 51 (by my rough count) talents as part of sustained abilities or sustained ability upgrades. There were a truckload of them, and DA:I has largely clipped those. When it comes to activated talents, it's very possible that DA:I has more than DA2. The 270 to 250 becomes 220 to 250, so unless DA:I has a lot of sustained talents they are hiding from us, it's certainly possible that DA:I has an edge. Those sustained talents were a large part of DA2's design. DA2 Warrior had only 14 active abilities outside of specs, and DA:I Warrior looks to have 20. DA2 Rogue had 18, DA:I would (again) be 20 if there aren't any sustained abilities hiding in there.

[mikeymoonshine]

It is definitely dispel magic -- it is even mentioned in the description (spells that disrupt hostile magic) and is an essential Spirit spell.
 

 

That doesn't mean it's that spell in fact I really don't think it is, Vivienne uses the spell in this demo

 

25:15

 

The symbol looks allot more like the unclear looking top left spell in the spirit tree to me. 

[The Night Haunter]

That would not be correct. There are only 2 non-weapon trees, plus weapon tree, plus spec -- 4 trees in any build. The other 3 are 2 specs and a second weapon you won't use. DA2 had 2 weapon trees, 4 other trees, and 3 specs pick 2 -- drop one weapon tree and one spec and you'd have 7 trees. 4 vs. 7.
 

I don't really know what math you are using, but there were 6 basic trees in DA2, and 4 in DAI, that is 4 v 6. And if you want to include a specialization then 5 v 7. You could include 2 specializations in DA2, but at that point you aren't really maxing any tree, just plopping a few points into half a dozen different trees, so how many trees there are wouldn't matter. What does matter is number of places to put skill points, which in DAI is at-least as big as DA2 according to the devs.

[mikeymoonshine]

 

 

As for focus abilities, all ones we've seen used are at the bottoms of trees (Firestorm, Haste). Hell, the devs stated that healing magic would be highly limited. Before we even saw these trees, the going assumption was that it would be tied to focus, and the tree just gave all the evidence we needed to put that to bed.

 

I guess that makes sense but I still think that other spell is a heal. The bottom one is probably a group revive. So we have one heal, a revive that is tied to focus and we can also revive individual companions ME style but that takes time. This is still pretty limited to me considering the fact that health doesn't regen. 

[Gamemako]

I don't really know what math you are using

You are being intentionally obtuse. Stop it. Only a bona fide idiot would spec two-handed and W&S both, and no matter how hard you try, you only get one of the three specs. Therefore, in any build, you will only touch ONE of the two weapons, ONE of the three specs, plus the other TWO trees. ERGO, FOUR. Same story over at DA2, except that you get 2 of 3 specs, dropping from 9 total trees to 7 usable in any build.

I guess that makes sense but I still think that other spell is a heal. The bottom one is probably a group revive. So we have one heal, a revive that is tied to focus and we can also revive individual companions ME style but that takes time. This is still pretty limited to me considering the fact that health doesn't regen.

I think it would be pretty odd to get heals tied to mana only when mana regenerates. That would defeat the purpose of the health regeneration limitations.

[The Night Haunter]

You are being intentionally obtuse. Stop it. Only a bona fide idiot would spec two-handed and W&S both, and no matter how hard you try, you only get one of the three specs. Therefore, in any build, you will only touch ONE of the two weapons, ONE of the three specs, plus the other TWO trees. ERGO, FOUR. Same story over at DA2, except that you get 2 of 3 specs, dropping from 9 total trees to 7 usable in any build.

What about mages? They don't have weapon trees. Imposing artificial limits that don't actually exist in game is contrary to any discussion about the subject. There are 6 base trees in DA2, 4 in DAI that is a fact that you can't really argue. 

[mikeymoonshine]

I think it would be pretty odd to get heals tied to mana only when mana regenerates. That would defeat the purpose of the health regeneration limitations.

 

Not really in DA2 you already had to wait quite a while to use the heal spells again and there were allot more heals in DA2, it could be even longer in this game. 

[The Night Haunter]

Not really in DA2 you already had to wait quite a while to use the heal spells again and there were allot more heals in DA2, it could be even longer in this game. 

Personally I hope the take the ridiculous time limit off heals. It was silly. DAO had a much shorter cool down. Although that brings back the 'No health regen doesn't matter cause we have mana based heals' problem.

 

Personally what I think they should do is limit heals to a max of 60% of your max health, and only potions (and some limited abilities) can raise your health beyond that point.

[andar91]

On Focus abilities:

 

I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if the bottom of the tree is always a focus ability, but one thing I noticed is that Haste has a little white frame around it, while Firestorm (in the combat video) does not. The bottom of Spirit doesn't have it either.

 

I have no idea if that has anything to do with it though. I really hope they clarify this soon.

[The Night Haunter]

On Focus abilities:

 

I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if the bottom of the tree is always a focus ability, but one thing I noticed is that Haste has a little white frame around it, while Firestorm (in the combat video) does not. The bottom of Spirit doesn't have it either.

 

I have no idea if that has anything to do with it though. I really hope they clarify this soon.

Personally I hope Focus is 1 ability per class, rather than mages get all the focus abilities, when Focus is supposed to build off teamwork it should be useable by the team, not just mages.

[mikeymoonshine]

Personally I hope the take the ridiculous time limit off heals. It was silly. DAO had a much shorter cool down. Although that brings back the 'No health regen doesn't matter cause we have mana based heals' problem.

 

It really depends on other aspects of the game, they want to make the non health regen an issue even out of combat so that you have to prepare for what you might face in the game. If you can just heal your whole party between battles then that's a sort of pointless aim. However if the time limit is quite long then people are not going to want to wait around for ages to heal their entire party before moving on. This will mean people will have to plan ahead with resources more. 

[Icy Magebane]

On Focus abilities:

 

I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if the bottom of the tree is always a focus ability, but one thing I noticed is that Haste has a little white frame around it, while Firestorm (in the combat video) does not. The bottom of Spirit doesn't have it either.

 

I have no idea if that has anything to do with it though. I really hope they clarify this soon.

I can't say that I'm excited about needing to get all the way to the end of any tree in order to use Focus abilities... unless they are OP as a rule, they seem like abilities that we should have access to earlier than that.  Or maybe I just don't like being forced along a certain path in order to use these abilities... they can't be perfectly balanced with one another, so putting them at the end of talent/spell trees may have a negative impact on the number of viable builds.

[Gamemako]

Not really in DA2 you already had to wait quite a while to use the heal spells again and there were allot more heals in DA2, it could be even longer in this game.

Even then, you would heal to full outside combat or just engage weak enemies repeatedly (e.g. wolves) to get your HP back.

Also, I did go re-watch that whole video again. Vivienne does use it, and it's Dispel. She uses it to cancel the mage's spell at the very end.

I can't say that I'm excited about needing to get all the way to the end of any tree in order to use Focus abilities... unless they are OP as a rule...

Well, that's kinda the point, I think. Firestorm is the game's supreme nuke. Instead of balancing to let you hit a wide AoE during every fight (like DA2 did, resulting in obnoxious repetition and low damage for what looks like a huge spell), it makes you measure when to pull out the big guns. Haste has the potential to carry you through difficult parts of fights, both by boosting your squad's DPS and by letting you avoid deadly situations (avoid dragon fire, clip wing, win). The Spirit one seems to be the only non-potion heal, which makes it exceedingly powerful.

[LaughingWolf]

I'm really not able to do all the math stuff you guys are doing; all I know is that I severely dislike these skill trees for the mage. Specifically the two seperate fire and ice skill trees -- that is a colossal waste.
For starters, there should be more than just four skill trees especially for mages as there skill trees are heavily based on the lore. And second, if the Devs are limiting it to four trees; than it should be elemental, primal, spirirt/arcane, and Enthropy (two mainly offensive trees with two mainly support trees)

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I'm really not able to do all the math stuff you guys are doing; all I know is that I severely dislike these skill trees for the mage. Specifically the two seperate fire and ice skill trees -- that is a colossal waste.
For starters, there should be more than just four skill trees especially for mages as there skill trees are heavily based on the lore. And second, if the Devs are limiting it to four trees; than it should be elemental, primal, spirirt/arcane, and Enthropy (two mainly offensive trees with two mainly support trees)

 

 

Bioware is known to butcher its own lore. I frankly do not know why they did it, magical spells were never a problem that was raised by any player demographic in previous games. 

 

So this dumbing down of magic and in fact other classes, I mean rogues now will only have two skill trees for rogues and two weapon skill trees. The same goes for warriors. I mean this is most likely why warriors are not getting an archery tree or a dual weapon tree. In previous games, rogues had a lot of talent trees but evidently that's gone. 

 

I guess this is to be expected with modern games. All flash, flare, pretty graphics but little to no depth, more streamlining and less flexibility. 

 

I suppose if we want in depth abilities, we can always get our hands on Pillars of Eternity when it launches. 

[Adhin]

We don't know anything about the Rogue tabs and what we've seen from Warrior they have more in them then DA2 had which I've pointed out before, and a hell of a lot more then DAO ever had for Warriors. Only real kill in content for warrior and rogue is the limitation we get on weapon use. And really, that's just for Warriors. Ultimately I think the biggest grievance people are seeing that no one seems to be saying is mages have a lot of passives now. DAO had 'no' passives in their 4 tabs (I don't count arcane but you can go ahead and count the 2 lines (or 3 if you had the expansion).

 

But yeah, lotta passives - that is if ALL of those circle things are passives and not just different icon for sustained. Pretty sure it's just a ballston of passives though. As I've said though im personally fine with that since what spells are there seem very meaningful and bring some kind of real tactical advantage. I do hope some of these passives are more interesting though then dmg boosts.

 

Kinda curious if any of the passives will function like permanent sustained, or add new effects to multiple spells like upgrades do but over a wider list.

[PillarBiter]

Bioware is known to butcher its own lore. I frankly do not know why they did it, magical spells were never a problem that was raised by any player demographic in previous games. 

 

So this dumbing down of magic and in fact other classes, I mean rogues now will only have two skill trees for rogues and two weapon skill trees. The same goes for warriors. I mean this is most likely why warriors are not getting an archery tree or a dual weapon tree. In previous games, rogues had a lot of talent trees but evidently that's gone. 

 

I guess this is to be expected with modern games. All flash, flare, pretty graphics but little to no depth, more streamlining and less flexibility. 

 

I suppose if we want in depth abilities, we can always get our hands on Pillars of Eternity when it launches. 

 

Although I do agree it doesn't befit the lore exactly (and that mages are a lot more creative with some spells, especially in the books), the main reason they would have done this is to balance out the gameplay. And honestly, since playing is what you'll be doing for the majority of the GAME, I'd rather have that perfectly balanced between classes than have absolute lore correctness. 

 

What I think their train of thought was: Warrior and rogue have 2 weapons, of which they'll choose one. Then they'll have 2 more normal trees to choose abilities from which befit every type of weapon, and one specialty. They'll probably have wanted to do something similar for mages. Hence, the 2 different 'weapons' (fire and ice), and 2 more trees which benefit all.

Personally, I rather like this for synergy with the other classes

 

However, this won't stop me from my cutesy wootesy dorian having both fire and ice

 

The more I think about it, the more I like this system.

 

Lastly, I think the specialisation trees will more than make up for it.

[Adhin]

I know this has been brought up before but the LORE of spells is there are no actual 'schools'. It's just basic classification by the Circle - and only the circle. Other places don't use that and it's not really tied to 'how' they work. Primal and Creation are ultimately the same, they all create something from nothing. Arcanes the same, so is Entropy.

 

Spirit is the only one that you know, actually 'used' spirits (or asked for there aid). And then you got Bloodmagic which kinda is it's own thing but also can do all the other ****... it's weird. Anyway point is - it's not actually against the lore for them to restructure the mage stuff. No more against the lore then restructuring the warriors

[wowsuper]

My main problem with this oversimplification of the magic system is that it takes all the roleplaying possibilities away. Gameplay-wise this could be a solid structure, but every mage will be basically forced to be either a nuker or a crippled support mage with a tiny tree of spells at his disposal. We won't be able to taylor our magic users in unique ways in the same way we could, and this butchers my roleplaying immersion.

I'm furiously pissed off.

[PillarBiter]

'oversimplification' and immersion is very personal. 

 

If you get pissed off so much simply by not having 100 choices in EVERYTHING, then this game isn't for you. There are other types of games that have this.

 

To me, this is still a game. Not reality. I'm way more immersed by not having broken or overpowered spells. I'm way more immersed by not having bugs due to the overcomplexity of the game. 

[wowsuper]

If you get pissed off so much simply by not having 100 choices in EVERYTHING, then this game isn't for you. There are other types of games that have this.

 

What bothers me is that DA:O and, to a lesser extent, DA2 gave you the possibility to develop your mages in unique ways, giving you a large amount of spells and trees, while Inquisition JUST TAKES THIS AWAY. It hurts to know that something you loved from the prequels is being removed from the sequel. And it also feels as an insult since the devs publicise their game as the biggest DA so far. Bigger locations, maybe, but butchered spells and talent choices.

 

What's worst is that I know that I will buy this damn game because I'm passionate about its narrative, but I'm sure that my hatred towards bioware game designers will just grow increasingly bitter as they will persist in simplifying charater development.

[Kage]

Said this in the magic skill thread, fits here too.

 

We have gone from 6 non-specialization trees to 4. Yeah... That sucks. Feels like this series just keeps getting simpler. Considering 2 of those 4 trees are weapon trees for rogues and warriors, that leaves warriors and rogues stuck leveling just their weapon tree and 2 other trees and their specializations. Talk about dumbing down.

 

I agree, it's kind of scary but it doesnt mean its a bad thing really compared to DA2.

 

It seems they have gone for a more replayability approach, than a variety of options during one concrete playthrough. In DA2 you had a lot of useless abilities and upgrades. I also didnt like the concept of upgrading abilities, because they were kind of mandatory, or useless, but never gave us options. If you use glyph of paralysis, you want to upgrade it for sure, for example.

 

In DAI it seems we will have more active than upgrades, which I really like. And also, we will have a limitation during the playthrough because we will only invest with warrior/rogues in 4 skill trees (weapon, 2 base, spec). However, in a future playthrough we would have another 3 skills trees untouched (other weapon, 2 other specs). So in DAI it seems there will be a lot of variation of builds, but those builds will be more cookie-cuttered.

 

I dont know, I actually need to play the game to see if I like it or not.

 

 

 

What about mages? They don't have weapon trees. Imposing artificial limits that don't actually exist in game is contrary to any discussion about the subject. There are 6 base trees in DA2, 4 in DAI that is a fact that you can't really argue. 

 

You are both acting childish, you understood the point of the other long ago, and you just keep going for the sake of being the one who is right.

You are both right and wrong at the same time, you know that.