Also, I did go re-watch that whole video again. Vivienne does use it, and it's Dispel. She uses it to cancel the mage's spell at the very end.
Yeh, that's what I said, but the symbol for that spell doesn't look like the green one I think is a heal, it looks very much like the top left spell in the spirit tree. So I think that other one is in fact a heal spell.
I know this has been brought up before but the LORE of spells is there are no actual 'schools'. It's just basic classification by the Circle - and only the circle. Other places don't use that and it's not really tied to 'how' they work. Primal and Creation are ultimately the same, they all create something from nothing. Arcanes the same, so is Entropy.
Spirit is the only one that you know, actually 'used' spirits (or asked for there aid). And then you got Bloodmagic which kinda is it's own thing but also can do all the other ****... it's weird. Anyway point is - it's not actually against the lore for them to restructure the mage stuff. No more against the lore then restructuring the warriors
It's not and it's fine if they do it based on play style like they did in DA2. The only problem I have is stuff like lightning spells being in a skill tree called entropy. We know the human mage is circle trained and there is very specific lore for the circle at least on how they classify spells. Lightning spells and all elemental spells are part of the primal school to the circle. So if they have renamed that entropy tree like they have with inferno and winter then I will be fine with it from a lore perspective.
It's not and it's fine if they do it based on play style like they did in DA2. The only problem I have is stuff like lightning spells being in a skill tree called entropy. We know the human mage is circle trained and there is very specific lore for the circle at least on how they classify spells. Lightning spells and all elemental spells are part of the primal school to the circle. So if they have renamed that entropy tree like they have with inferno and winter then I will be fine with it from a lore perspective.
Oh, dont worry about that for now. They just created the spells they want to include, and now they just need to find the way to categorize them, decide icons, decide the skill order and therefor balance their power, etc. They are playing around a lot with them, that is why we constantly see different trees, different icons, different placements, and they never show in detail any skill tree.
The only exception I would see are Inferno and Spirit, since they seem quite confident those skill trees will stay, as they are the ones more showed for the mage, and also the Warrior skill trees. The rest of trees are going to change a lot... And depending on how the rest of spells are consistent enough or not, they could even change the mage trees again.
Oh, dont worry about that for now. They just created the spells they want to include, and now they just need to find the way to categorize them, decide icons, decide the skill order and therefor balance their power, etc. They are playing around a lot with them, that is why we constantly see different trees, different icons, different placements, and they never show in detail any skill tree.
The only exception I would see are Inferno and Spirit, since they seem quite confident those skill trees will stay, as they are the ones more showed for the mage, and also the Warrior skill trees. The rest of trees are going to change a lot... And depending on how the rest of spells are consistent enough or not, they could even change the mage trees again.
That's what I am hoping, I actually prefer skill trees based more on play style. I agree that inferno and Spirit look at least mostly locked down. We have seen Winter change allot though.
I'm still hopeful that each of fire, cold, lightning and earth spells are represented in separate trees. Since fire and cold are separated (a change I love), I'll be irritated if earth and lightning are joined at the hip.
That being said, I'm not sure where lightning or earth would fit into a Spirit tree, for instance. Maybe Stonefist will be a one-off spell somewhere and earth is otherwise unrepresented.
I'm still hopeful that each of fire, cold, lightning and earth spells are represented in separate trees. Since fire and cold are separated (a change I love), I'll be irritated if earth and lightning are joined at the hip.
That being said, I'm not sure where lightning or earth would fit into a Spirit tree, for instance. Maybe Stonefist will be a one-off spell somewhere and earth is otherwise unrepresented.
Well in this tree we have 5 active spells, Chain Lightning and what I assume is Tempest are on the left. On the right, the top one could be Stonefist, it doesn't Quite look like the Stonefist symbol in the demos but it could be lighting or it has just been changed. The next one actually looks a bit like Hex Of Torment (the only entropy spell in the entropy tree 
) but the icon is not exactly there same so I can hardly be sure. At the bottom we have Haste (I think). I have no idea what any of the passives are.
Ofc this tree may not be final but it looks to me like the primal tree from DA2 crossed with Creation and Entropy If my guesses are correct. That really annoys me but it is what it is.
@Milkeymoonshine : Yeah I just hope they don't call the trees Spirit and Entropy. I want them to use more inventive names like they're using for fire/ice. That would at least help alleviate the awkwardness of having lightning in Entropy or Spirit or where ever it pops up at. Also, human mage is the only one who was in the circle I believe and the circles are defunct and have been for at least a year by the start? I'm sure there are some mages that strictly adhere to that way of teaching but i'm sure plenty of them, even before the circle went under, thought it was a stupid way to classify most of the spells.
But they never described how they function (other then spirit) just what they do, in general as the categorizing theme. Which seems odd to me for some reason, think that's a mix of science and DnD getting in my way. But I naturally want to label spells based off how they work, not what the end result is. Anyway I just think it makes sense from the perspective 2/3rd of the Mages weren't in the circle (I don't think, anyway) and the one who was (humans) hasn't been apart of that for awhile. It's symbolic almost of the state of the mage circles heh.
-edit-
Man you know what I just thought about, only 1 of the spirit spells 'actually' used spirits in anyway what so ever. Other then I guess Spirit Healer in DAO. Animate Dead, only one, the rest where all makin' crap outa nothing. Hell one of em even mentions using 'entropic energies' LOL (death syphon, in case anyone is curious). Whole mind 'tree' had nothing to do with any of that at all either. It was just creation of force. I can see why that all got moved into an Arcane tree in DA2, makes no sense why it's in spirit.
Really, REALLY hope they name them anything other then Spirit/Entropy now (but I want spells 'from' those trees in past games, they're interesting).
That would be immunity to physical which would effect all classes. Also, a mage can have a very small point investment and have fire and ice with out having to hit up inventory to swap stuff and rebind skills. Rogue would have to swap to bow, then rebind for bow skills if they did something as absurd as you saying. I get your mad about it but c'mon man.
I'm pissed Warrior can't dual wield, bugs me a to no end, I don't wanna use a shield or 2H. But if I wanna play a Warrior (which I do) I'm stuck with 2H or a shield. Can't make a archer warrior. Can't make a sword/small shield rogue for that matter. Can't do a smaller 2H rogue like a katana or ninja-to which generally weren't used with just 1 hand. Does it suck we're all stuck in these rolls? Sure, but Mage is the least shoehorned at the moment. They got a lot of tactical depth, more then the past games with fire and ice alone, and have a specialization allowing you to turn them into melee-ists.
Complain, wish it was different.. but would be nice to see less hyperbole in here. It's getting a little ridiculous.
Here are my suggestion for the skill trees that I have seen so far.
Warriors
- They should have one skill tree for sword and broad, one for dual weapon but only allow them to dual wield swords, one for two handed weapon and one for archery but only allow them to use crossbows. I find the notion that warriors, being masters of combat, being unable to wield a particular weapon or mastering a particular school of weaponry, downright nonsensical.
- Give warriors who the option to choose from multiple types of weapons. In terms of shields, a warrior should be allowed to use different types of shields from buckers to tower shields the enemy use and each shield should function differently. For example using a buckler is does not grant great defense but improves movement and attack speed whereas the opposite goes for tower shields.
Rogues
- Have more rogue skills. We know by deduction that there is 4 skill trees and 3 specialization trees per class. That means with rogues, there would be dual wielding, archery and only two remaining skill trees.
I for one liked the rogue skill trees in Dragon Age 2. There was something for each type of rogue. For those who wish to undermine the enemy, they could use Sabotage talents. For those who wanted to control the flow of the fight, they could use Scoundrel. For those who just wanted direct boosts, there was Specialist. For those who wanted deception and trickery, there was Subterfuge.
I am sure the remaining two skill trees are not going to be sufficient to provide the versatility that the Dragon Age 2 trees did.
Mages
- Take Focus away and instead replace it with spells that just use mana and have a casting time during which they are vulnerable to interruption. That would be a lot better.
Give firestorm or group heal long casting times during which the caster is vulnerable to interruption via stuns, sufficient damage, etc. Something similar to using Teleportation Scrolls in Dota 2. Powerful but you take quite a while to cast, enemy can interrupt you. This way, mages still use mana and the player still needs to be tactical and strategic.
- Have each tree to specifically distinct things. Put all elements into one tree. Have the second tree to be a mix of debuffing-type spirit and entropy. Have the third tree to be a support tree with the wards, dispels, barriers, etc. Then let the final tree be something like space-time manipulation. We have seen stuff like gravitic ring, pull of the abyss and time spiral. Having the ability to warp space and time in that way would be really cool.
Misc.
-Have a skill line for our glowy hand. I would be really disappointed if all it did was just to be used to close Veil Tears by pressing a button. Give us the option of decrease time taken to close a tear, and other cool abilities.
- Instead of having focus serve as a barrier to ability usage, it would be nice if Focus was something that genuinely promoted party cohesion and cooperation. We can have the Focus bar and once it fills up we can use it to boost party damage for a short time or increase regeneration, etc. IMO, Focus should be an "In the zone" ability. If party coordinates properly, they get in the zone and get some form of bonus as opposed to using it to cast Firestorm or Blizzard or Haste.
What about mages? They don't have weapon trees. Imposing artificial limits that don't actually exist in game is contrary to any discussion about the subject. There are 6 base trees in DA2, 4 in DAI that is a fact that you can't really argue.
Spirit is the only one that you know, actually 'used' spirits (or asked for there aid).
Yeh, that's what I said, but the symbol for that spell doesn't look like the green one I think is a heal, it looks very much like the top left spell in the spirit tree. So I think that other one is in fact a heal spell.
Complain, wish it was different.. but would be nice to see less hyperbole in here. It's getting a little ridiculous.
Mages
- Take Focus away and instead replace it with spells that just use mana and have a casting time during which they are vulnerable to interruption. That would be a lot better.
This. I understand that teamwork is an important aspect of combat in this series, but "focus spells" aren't doing it for me.
@Gamemako :Yup that's pretty much how I see it all be it im sure we have different ideas how it should be done cause I obviously know better then everyone else. 
But yeah in the end of the day I get why they have things how they're setup, and I know i'm going to enjoy the game. Just wish I could DW with my Warrior, bummer I can't. I do like a lot of passives on war/rogue and I don't think it'll bug me on the Mage. Would be nice if some of those sustained made their way 'into' passives. I mean Death Syphon could easily be a passive, no reason it 'has' to be a sustained.
As for all spells having to deal with spirits no, vast majority don't deal with spirits at all. Most of the 'Spirit' spells have a closer link to the Fade then other spells in relation to the kind of things they do. But yeah in the end I think the classification had more to do with some kinda odd outcome ideal they where tied to by some dusty old dude 100 years ago or something then anything else.
Which, as I've said before, is one reason im happy to see the skill tabs get renamed. Just kinda fits where DAI world from a lore perspective is going.
-edit-
Oh, side note, I really hope all spells use mana - focus or no. If the big bad focus related spells don't consume 'any' mana at all along with focus thats gonna be weird just in general.
If people are getting really hung up on the "not fitting with Circle nomenclature thing" for the mage skill tree, well, the reality is that we don't have the majority of our mages (either as the protagonist or as our NPC mages) being Circle trained. The human PC mage and Vivene are Andrastian Circle-trained. Solas, Dorian, the Dalish and Qunari PCs are not Circle trained. That's 2/3 protagonists and 2/3 mage NPCs that come from outside our familiar Circle.
So, if anything, lore-wise the skill tree shouldn't reflect Circle nomenclature. Just like how DA:O was lore-breaking anyway since Flemeth insisted her magic wasn't Circle magic yet Morrigan learned (and had) spells categorized like a Circle mage.
If Fire and Ice are "weapon choices" for mage class, I want enemies immune to Dual Daggers to be in-game. For the sake of balance.
You mean, strong physical resistance? Because presumably with shield-bearing enemies that will be a part of the game.
You mean, strong physical resistance? Because presumably with shield-bearing enemies that will be a part of the game.
Maybe. Is there any evidence that they don't also block magic? If magic completely bypasses shields, that would be acceptable.
I doubt shields block AoE spells. We know they block projectiles and melee (regardless of if its a spell). It's not about to block an explosion or a firewall placed on the person holding the big shield though.
No, I mean you can't damage them with Dual Dagger attacks. If Fire and Ice are "weapons trees" I expect other weapon trees to behave similarly, along with enemies having immunities to them.You mean, strong physical resistance? Because presumably with shield-bearing enemies that will be a part of the game.
Here are my suggestion for the skill trees that I have seen so far.
Snip (Go back to Ishten's post and read it).
You raise good points.
However there is one slight problem.
Even during this late stage of development, nothing is set in stone.
What we saw in the footage was probably a bunch of place holders cobbled together last minute for the demonstrations.
I'm probably wrong here.
I look forward to seeing the trees to see what they're about.
if they do keep with inferno and winter separate I've got more incentive to play a pyromancer or role play my evil sorceress marzanna who is based on the Slavic goddess of winter and death - will use winter and necromancy.
If they decide to put the 'traditional' branch of primal ( i didn't like the elemental / primal split dragon age 2 brought in) i can make my ice and stone combo elven mage, or create a lightning and fire mage ( as felassan notes in masked empire, most humans wield flame and lightning magics) or just focus on one element and utilise other esoteric magics.
i suppose bioware could join ice and flame and call it infernal winter ? Lol.
Ultimately, im happy with the spells I've seen so far and will be looking forward to its release.
Infernal Winter?
So basically Iceland. Freezing cold nation with volcanic activity.
i approve plus 10Infernal Winter?
So basically Iceland. Freezing cold nation with volcanic activity.
Let's apply Occam's Razor. Dispel is a spirit spell, it is mentioned in the description of the tree, and the spell is clearly not in any other of the trees we saw at E3 2014. Either Dispel was featured in the PAX demo and then removed from the game in favor of a healing ability that completely breaks the game's core design all while leaving mention of the now-missing spell in the game's ability tree descriptions and re-using the icon with a slight recolor, or that's Dispel in the Spirit tree. One of the two is vastly more likely than the other.
You don't seem to be understanding what I am saying and these are not the only two possibilities.
Watch the video at 25:15
Vivienne uses Dispel Magic (or some version of it) the icon is the one on the top, you can tell because it starts recharging when she uses it. As you can see the icon is purple with a slightly see through hand and a white star(ish) shape at the bottom slightly to the right.
Now look at the spirit tree
look at the top left ability in this tree, the purple one across from the barrier spell. It's not as clear as it could be but you can tell that it is also purple and that it has the white star shape in exactly the same place. It's pretty obvious that this is your dispel, you just can't see the hand because it's not clear.
So seeing as the green one does not seem to be the Dispel and does look like a heal spell because of the cross in the center of the hand (like in DA2) I think we can reasonably assume that this is in fact a heal.
@Milkeymoonshine : Yeah I just hope they don't call the trees Spirit and Entropy. I want them to use more inventive names like they're using for fire/ice. That would at least help alleviate the awkwardness of having lightning in Entropy or Spirit or where ever it pops up at.
If they are going this direction even inferno and winter are too closely tied to elemental/primal. Better to call them discipline etc as they looked like doing in 1 demo.
I don't think calling a tab entirely fire oriented as 'Inferno' as being to close to calling it Primal from DAO. I think the other names, such as Winter being discipline was because they had other spells in there (such as the (fake)teleport-dodge spell). That seems to be gone in the most recent tree. I guess what I'm saying is I want the tree names to describe what the tree, as a whole kinda does with out being to blatant about it. Such as a support tab, dunno what you'd call it outside of Support, but then im no word smith. I'm sure someone can come up with a good word for support that would fit a tab oriented around buffs, anti-magic and heals.
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