6397 réponses à ce sujet

[The Night Haunter]

@We Stand Midnight Clad: My point wasn't a difference in PC vs Console. It's keyboard vs controller. PC can also use a controller this time around and the GUI is going to change when one uses it. There is no reason, at all, to limit the controller to 'not' using the radial menu (unless this is a MP/SP Parity thing). The Radial menu worked great in past games to compensate keyboard button mapping, I liked it but they have made the choice to disallow that.

 

That is what I was talking about and something a lot of PC folks here are kinda ignoring. They made a 'choice' to ensure you only have access to 8 'things' in combat at a time per character. That is a resource limiter, something that has to be taken into account in each combat situation, in character building. It's a fundamental part of how the gameplays. Your telling me, with that in mind, PC with out a controller plugged in will just circumvent that entirely? That this shift in gameplay will just 'not be there' for PC cause 'it has a keyboard'?

 

I mean sure it's possible but then they'd still have the radial menu for controller use is all im saying. My bets on Keyboard interface is going to have a bar of 8 hotkeys. And this is probably for a MP parity thing and focus on 8 abilities (and a slew of passives) being your main 'build'. Or maybe they just decided they hated controllers a lot and wanted to punish all of us non-keyboard users. Guess what I'm getting as is - prepare to be disappointed at your hotkey bar.

Except MP parity is non-existent. Cross platform MP has never been a thing for most games, let alone a tacked on MP to a single player game. If PC can only play MP with other PCs then they will all have the same access to buttons (if you choose to use your controller instead of a keyboard, well that's your choice).

[Adhin]

I have no idea where you got cross platform play from. I never once mentioned that at all. From a general gameplay experience on PC they support both forms of control. Mouse and Controller. If they have decided, for whatever reason, to limit just the controller when in the past it hasn't thats odd. More odd when you consider this is the 1st time they've made the console (or controller version) 100% identical to the PC (keyboard) version with a more advanced tactical camera they felt required to leave out in past versions.

 

The only reasons keyboard would break the 8 hotkey thing is if they just didn't 'think about' it. Didn't consider the only 8 hotkey as a gameplay thing. If they just kinda forgot to put in the extra skill use via radial menu. Quite frankly I think that's a hell of a point of view to have, to assume they just didn't think about the gameplay at all. That they just haven't given 2 shits about it and haven't put any thought into it at all to the point of that bit just wildly slipping there mind, it's kinda insulting to BioWare in my opinion.

 

But then, that kinda things happens a lot. Folks seem to assume they blindly stumble on all kinds of gameplay stuff and just ignore everything else that doesn't make it is. This 8 hotkey thing isn't an 'oversight'. It's a game design choice. Why did they make that choice? I have no idea, but making that choice would be pointless if the keyboard GUI circumvented it.

 

-edit-

 

So this shows s'more footage, don't get to see any skill trees sadly (not a bioware employee playing it I don't think). Anyway reason I wanted to link it here is about midway through. That is, once the guy gets to the keep thing in the gamescom demo, you see him start to use Counter Attack often.

 

Looks like it works just as I was thinking, drains stamina per second, has no cooldown and you can't do anything while your attempting to use it. If you use it as something is about to hit you, it does what you expect, deflects the attack and follows up with a counter attack. But like any other use ability it means your not able to use another ability in the middle of it, or use your auto-attack while trying to deflect an attack.

 

So yeah, 5 stamina a second while 'using' with no CD means we could use this, with good timing, to tank up as a 2H'er. Means you wont be doing crazy extra dmg by spamming other stuff but properly timed counters I bet you will let you mitigate a crap ton of dmg. Definitely gonna be a 2H warrior with heavy counter use + Reaver abilities first playthrough.

 

-extra-edit-

Oh and he uses that rift ability (the actual skill, not a rift) and... I have no idea what its doing. It creates some kinda green wobbly vortex but I see no dmg numbers or holding effect or anything. But I'm sure its doing 'something'... probably.

[wowsuper]

Oh and he uses that rift ability (the actual skill, not a rift) and... I have no idea what its doing. It creates some kinda green wobbly vortex but I see no dmg numbers or holding effect or anything. But I'm sure its doing 'something'... probably.

 

In a gamescom gameplay video the devs said it banishes demons.

 

I really hope the guy there is playing in easy mode: there is no tactical depth in what he's doing (not to say he's pushing buttons randomly) and yet he seems to be advancing through the area without a problem...

[Adhin]

Heh yeah, he kinda walks through it but then, and I was discussing in another thread. Stamina/Mana regen in the gamescom (and E3 demo for that matter) are stupid fast! You use a skill and by the time your done your craps full again - or close enough to full. I am pretty darn certain thats just for demonstration purposes and not the intended regeneration rate. Anyway, point is, its a stage demo thing and I highly doubt that was on nightmare or anything.

[andar91]

Well, the player didn't use tactical view very much (or at all), but I'm not necessarily disheartened.

 

One thing I noticed was how tough the enemies were in terms of pure health; in DA2, there were tons of enemies that you could just mow down, but those zombies required some real pounding before they went down. Doubly so for the rage demon.

 

I suspect that playing tactically will always be more beneficial but not always necessary, especially in your average 2-3 enemy skirmish. I think it'll be more important in larger fights or after you've been in a level a while and fight after fight has chipped away at your Focus, Health, and potions. It's like...the entire map is like one big encounter.

 

 

Going back to abilities...

 

Mighty Blow - I really don't like that it creates a wall of fire once upgraded. I'm not normally one to object to stretching reality. I can get behind the Warrior's Grappling Chain ability, for instance. I can even overlook how the Warrior literally shatters the ground with a blow. But creating a wall of fire?

 

It just seems like a bit much to me. I'll likely just avoid the upgrade.

[Biotic Sage]

Does anybody have any insight into the starting trees for the Inquisitor?  

 

From what we've seen, the ability tree spread for the main character seems to be: 4 standard ability trees and 1 "mark of the rift" ability tree (the green Inquisition symbol and sword for the warrior [and rogue?] and the purple "vengeance" symbol [the one used for Anders' tree] for the mage [possibly indicating possession by a spirit for the mage Inquisitor?].  I'm assuming we'll be able to add the one specialization tree for a total of 6 trees for our main character.  The companions seem to each have 4 standard ability trees and one of the specialization trees (Iron Bull has Reaver, Vivienne has Knight Enchanter, etc.).

 

The thing that doesn't make sense to me is the mage Inquisitor.  Spirit, Creation, Inferno, Winter, and Entropy all appear to be separate standard trees.  However, that means there are too many ability trees for the mage to fit the pattern I described above.  And I'm not sure where the lightning abilities fit, since they are also technically from the Primal School of Magic (Creation, Spirit, and Entropy are the other 3 schools).  Could it be that we will be able to pick our Primal Tree as a mage for our primary offensive element?: Fire, Cold, or Lightning?

[andar91]

The thing that doesn't make sense to me is the mage Inquisitor.  Spirit, Creation, Inferno, Winter, and Entropy all appear to be separate standard trees.  However, that means there are too many ability trees for the mage to fit the pattern I described above.  And I'm not sure where the lightning abilities fit, since they are also technically from the Primal School of Magic (Creation, Spirit, and Entropy are the other 3 schools).  Could it be that we will be able to pick our Primal Tree as a mage for our primary offensive element?: Fire, Cold, or Lightning?

 

This thread has 26 pages of speculation on this account, and we really don't know.

Personally, I'm guessing that the mage, like in Origins, will just flat-out get more ability choices than the other classes. Maybe that's wishful thinking though. What I DON'T want to happen is for elemental abilities to replace Entropy and Creation, but we've seen icons that look like Entropy and Creation to me (orange and black horror icon and green blooming flower).

 

I'm starting to wonder if the specializations that were shown before (the icon names on the classes page might have been off. What if our base trees really are Spirit, Inferno, Winter, and...combo earth/lightning (still doesn't work with numbers, see?), and our specializations have previous stuff. So Necromancer spec is essentially our Entropy tree and maybe the other one is for Creation.

 

This is the #1 thing I am curious about right now.

[wowsuper]

Mighty Blow - I really don't like that it creates a wall of fire once upgraded. I'm not normally one to object to stretching reality. I can get behind the Warrior's Grappling Chain ability, for instance. I can even overlook how the Warrior literally shatters the ground with a blow. But creating a wall of fire?

 

It just seems like a bit much to me. I'll likely just avoid the upgrade.

 

So it actually is a warrior talent... I was wondering if that was just the "wall of fire" spell or if it was somehow connected to the inquisitor's moves.

 

And apparently it's a shamelessly recycled graphic effect indeed. Holy Christ, not only they give us a poor handful of usable spells and talents, but they also dare to recycle graphics for them... 

 

In any case I'm not really concerned about the realism of this particular talent: after all the inquisitor is wielding a flaming 2H sword, and the flame surge could be fictionally explainable relating it to the runes which enchant the sword: the warrior doesn't conjure flames himself but exploits the runes on the weapon. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I am not too worried about combat difficulty as of right now. 

 

Most if not all the videos shown so far depict third person action hack, slash and staff twerk with very sparing use of tactics and strategy. NONE of the freaking testers and devs, from the videos we have been shown so far, play the game the way I do, which is to use tactical combat all the time, pause frequently and micromanage every character. 

 

Then there is the fact they are playing on Peasantus Consolius as opposed to playing on Gloriosa Peaseaus. 

 

I am more curious and worried about the skill trees and the spells we have. 

 

For the simple reason that some, like Fallback Plan seem to defy all the norms and conventions in Thedas so far. Rogue teleport ? Give me a break. Even Batman has no such gadgets. 

 

There are also the spells. While they look very flashy, props to the animation team and they seem to serve dual purpose, the fact that they do not seem to be following the conventional schools of magic approach makes me wary. If this was solely limited to Dalish mage Inquisitors and Qunari mercenary mage Inquisitors then I can see this making sense because the schools of magic convention is a Circle of Magi thing, not a Dalish thing and certainly not a Qunari thing. However, the Human noble mage Inquisitors seem to follow the similar line when it comes to magic as well, which bugs me. 

 

Moreover there is Focus. How exactly are they going to explain the fact that the Warden and the Champion got away with using mana for Firestorm but the Inquisitor and other mages in the party must use Focus ? Epic retcon ? 

[wowsuper]

Does anybody have any insight into the starting trees for the Inquisitor?  

 

From what we've seen, the ability tree spread for the main character seems to be: 4 standard ability trees and 1 "mark of the rift" ability tree (the green Inquisition symbol and sword for the warrior [and rogue?] and the purple "vengeance" symbol [the one used for Anders' tree] for the mage [possibly indicating possession by a spirit for the mage Inquisitor?].  I'm assuming we'll be able to add the one specialization tree for a total of 6 trees for our main character.  The companions seem to each have 4 standard ability trees and one of the specialization trees (Iron Bull has Reaver, Vivienne has Knight Enchanter, etc.).

 

The thing that doesn't make sense to me is the mage Inquisitor.  Spirit, Creation, Inferno, Winter, and Entropy all appear to be separate standard trees.  However, that means there are too many ability trees for the mage to fit the pattern I described above.  And I'm not sure where the lightning abilities fit, since they are also technically from the Primal School of Magic (Creation, Spirit, and Entropy are the other 3 schools).  Could it be that we will be able to pick our Primal Tree as a mage for our primary offensive element?: Fire, Cold, or Lightning?

 

What I understood from the info I gathered:

- Mark of the rift tree doesn't exist. There might be one or maybe even a couple of plot-related, non-class-specific inquisitor talents which revolve around the mark, but they will be isolated, not in a tree;

- The spell system is being completely twisted: The actual entropy tree doesn't exist anymore, while entropic effects are spread all over elemental-flavoured offensive spells (lightning drains stamina (?), fire frightens and "poisons", cold paralyses). The currently called "entropy" tree is actually a primal tree (lightning + earth), while fire and cold have a wonderfully redundant tree each. The last non-spec mage tree is a "support" tree which tightens arcane, creation and spirit trees into one.

 

@Ishten: I think that the "blink" move is only avaliable to Cole, and that should be fine lore-wise.

Regarding the magic schools... well it's not really a problem to manipulate them since, according to the devs, the instability of the veil has greatly affected mages all over Thedas.  

[Abraham_uk]

What I understood from the info I gathered:

- Mark of the rift tree doesn't exist. There might be one or maybe even a couple of plot-related, non-class-specific inquisitor talents which revolve around the mark, but they will be isolated, not in a tree;

- The spell system is being completely twisted: The actual entropy tree doesn't exist anymore, while entropic effects are spread all over elemental-flavoured offensive spells (lightning drains stamina (?), fire frightens and "poisons", cold paralyses). The currently called "entropy" tree is actually a primal tree (lightning + earth), while fire and cold have a wonderfully redundant tree each. The last non-spec mage tree is a "support" tree which tightens arcane, creation and spirit trees into one.

 

@Ishten: I think that the "blink" move is only avaliable to Cole, and that should be fine lore-wise.

Regarding the magic schools... well it's not really a problem to manipulate them since, according to the devs, the instability of the veil has greatly affected mages all over Thedas.  

 

If that's true, I can see how this would anger a lot of people.

Personally, as long as all the spells are worth while and I have a variety of tactical options as a mage I don't mind.

 

The game comes out in November. Nothing is really set in stone.

Also the skill trees we've seen in videos my not be reflective of 100% of the skill tress in game.

However like I've said, if those are all of the options we're getting, I'm not too fussed.

[Adhin]

Where did you get the idea fire poisons, you mean the DoT? Fire having a DoT is you know, fire damage, things 'burning' not things being poisoned and has been in past games. Fear effect yeah that's a new one for DA games. The mark not being a tree (but still showing up as a tree) makes some sense though. Give you away to look at it, but not have you spend skill points on it. Though that just makes me curious how you unlock other things for it, if at all.

 

As a side note - Cold has always Paralysed. Or well, Frozen, both in DAO and DA2 so that's not a 'new thing' either. At this point in time we frankly have no idea what the other 2 mage tabs are called, or what exactly is in them (or where). We know there are at least 2 lightning spells and that is about that sadly. Oh and a haste thrown into 1 of them. They where, at one point, called Spirit and Entropy but that was months old by the time E3 hit and stuff changed before that point, after that point and... yeah.

[wowsuper]

Where did you get the idea fire poisons, you mean the DoT? Fire having a DoT is you know, fire damage, things 'burning' not things being poisoned and has been in past games. Fear effect yeah that's a new one for DA games. The mark not being a tree (but still showing up as a tree) makes some sense though. Give you away to look at it, but not have you spend skill points on it. Though that just makes me curious how you unlock other things for it, if at all.

 

As a side note - Cold has always Paralysed. Or well, Frozen, both in DAO and DA2 so that's not a 'new thing' either. At this point in time we frankly have no idea what the other 2 mage tabs are called, or what exactly is in them (or where). We know there are at least 2 lightning spells and that is about that sadly. Oh and a haste thrown into 1 of them. They where, at one point, called Spirit and Entropy but that was months old by the time E3 hit and stuff changed before that point, after that point and... yeah.

 

In rpgs poison effect is damage over time by definition, isn't it? Well, aside from the damage type.

And no, the effects I mentioned above aren't new, but now elemental damage will be the only source of them. But since it already was a source of those effects... now that you make me think about it enrtopy spells can be considered suppressed altogether (except for the additional fear effect transmigrated to fire).  

...

(hooray)

[Adhin]

Well, not... entirely no. It depends how the poison works but poisons are, more often then not, represented via a DoT yes. It's just that all DoT's (most, in fact) aren't Poison. A constant burning effect is a DoT but not a poison, acid is again, often represented via a DoT of some kind (if not the entire effect being a DoT) and isn't poison. 3E DnD poisons are almost exclusively represented as attribute debuffs instead of DoTs, though you still get a few that crop up that are.

 

I definitely think we'll see a few, if nothing else in the Necromancer tree. But we'll see few around I'm pretty sure. I just hope Necromancer tree also has a animate dead spell as well. I'll honestly be a little bummed if 'Necromancer' is just copy/paste entropy and that's that. I'll still end up getting it on my planned necro char but gonna be a little bummed if thats 'all' it is.

[andar91]

It would be very odd for Necromancer to not have some form of Animate Dead.

 

 

A note on the flaming sword comments and Mighty Blow:

 

I think verisimilitude might be a better term that 'realism', or maybe internal logic. You (wowsuper) mentioned the flaming sword, but I think the ability creates fire regardless of weapon (I could be wrong, though). And yeah, we realize runes can make flaming swords, but unless you're a mage or using explosives, how the heck are you creating fire like that?

 

It's not a big deal - I'm not somebody who's big on "EVERYTHING MUST 100% CONFORM" and I get that game-y concessions are going to be made, but still. It throws me off.

[The Night Haunter]

In a gamescom gameplay video the devs said it banishes demons.

 

I really hope the guy there is playing in easy mode: there is no tactical depth in what he's doing (not to say he's pushing buttons randomly) and yet he seems to be advancing through the area without a problem...

Any kind of open demo is always going to be on the easiest difficulty, probably with additional benefits. Being dropped into the middle of the game without having played the game at all before at hard difficult would be ridiculously difficult. Especially for a journalist type who isn't as familiar with the games as us fans.

 

I do hope the stamina regen is a bit tuned down though, as that isn't something that is normally effected by difficulty.

[Biotic Sage]

What I understood from the info I gathered:

- Mark of the rift tree doesn't exist. There might be one or maybe even a couple of plot-related, non-class-specific inquisitor talents which revolve around the mark, but they will be isolated, not in a tree;

- The spell system is being completely twisted: The actual entropy tree doesn't exist anymore, while entropic effects are spread all over elemental-flavoured offensive spells (lightning drains stamina (?), fire frightens and "poisons", cold paralyses). The currently called "entropy" tree is actually a primal tree (lightning + earth), while fire and cold have a wonderfully redundant tree each. The last non-spec mage tree is a "support" tree which tightens arcane, creation and spirit trees into one.

 

@Ishten: I think that the "blink" move is only avaliable to Cole, and that should be fine lore-wise.

Regarding the magic schools... well it's not really a problem to manipulate them since, according to the devs, the instability of the veil has greatly affected mages all over Thedas.  

 

Where on earth are you getting all of this?  What are your sources?

[Adhin]

@adar91 : Yeah I'm the same way, if I can't even fake an explanation for it, or I think it just looks to weird I simply ignore the crap out of the skill and/or upgrade due to that. I've had this issue with most games in the DA series. Though in DAO it was more of 'I dislike how that looks' and less 'how am I shooting fire out'. Reaver, for instance, magical in all manner of ways but is totally explained, same with Templar. Good chance I'll only end up with 2 skills from the 2H tree (1 being Counter) while I focus more on Vanguard/Battlemaster and definitely use all actives from Reaver.

[LexXxich]

Note, saying "nothing is set in stone" is not exactly true. At this point, the game is feature complete and content complete. All systems are in place. There won't be any more of them implemented or drastically redesigned. What BW is doing right now is final testing and certification. They might shuffle things a bit here and there, or completely cut things they couldn't make work (like finishing blows). What we see in recent videos is 90% what we'll get.


P.S. Necromancer spec interests me. How is it going to work without sustained spells? Will Raise Undead be a time-limited active you have to recast all the time?

[Adhin]

Yeah, pretty much LexXxich. Though we've only seen 1 up to date thing on skills and that's the right side of the 2H warrior tab, and the combat video. Anything before the combat video (where all this mage speculation is coming from) is like half a year old at best.

[andar91]

One thing that I'm very curious about is:

 

We've seen quite a bit of the Spirit tree, but there are two spells missing from it that I would have expected: Seeker's Swarm and the Teleport/Blink move (especially considering Blink LOOKED like it had the same kind of green energy as spirit spells/the Fade.

 

I wonder if there's a general tree...maybe combined with Mark of the Rift and all those? Sort of like Arcane or the Mage skills in Origins. 

 

This is my confusion I keep coming back to: if there really are only 4 trees, and one each was an element, than we have no room even for Spirit or the Inquisitor tree we've seen...or what was that purple icon in the old demo? And what about the Cthuluhu Skull (Horror Icon I am convinced was Entropy)? The idea of there being only 4 base trees with 7 total with specializations does not fit with what we've seen (albeit in demos).

 

For reference: 

 

http://i498.photobuc...rk/specDAI1.jpg

 

Winter (Snowflake)

Inferno (Fire Burst)

Spirit (Blue-Green Book)

Inquisitor (Green sowrd and eye); could have been Warrior Specific, but I doubt it, it's too critical for story

Green Bloom (I think Creation, and MAYBE Earth was lumped into this tree)

 

Suggested as Specializations

Sword and Shield for Knight Enchanter

Purple Thingy: Suggested as Necromancer

Cthulhu Skull (I can't spell Chthuluuhulluhtlu)...I think Entropy, but could be Necromancer

 

Even if we look at what seems to be the base mage trees, we're over 4 trees, and we STILL don't know where Seeker's Swarm goes (could be Inquisitor, as mentioned).

 

So confused... O.o

 

This is why I think there are 2 likely explanations (I think about this too much):

 

1.) Inferno and Winter are like basic weapon trees for other classes, and the other two are Creation and Entropy (that combine Earth and lightning into them respectively).

 

2.) I prefer this one: Mages get more trees since they live and die on their abilities more than the others (particularly Warriors): Base trees are: Inferno, Winter, Tempest, Earthquake, Spirit, Entropy, and Creation and then specs. That would definitely be a lot.

 

Noteable absences: Walking Bomb is apparently Mike Laidlaw's favorite ability, and we haven't seen it ANYWHERE (not even in Spirit, where it would normally go). Crushing Prison (Iconic and a fan favorite).

[Hellion Rex]

Well, the player didn't use tactical view very much (or at all), but I'm not necessarily disheartened.

 

One thing I noticed was how tough the enemies were in terms of pure health; in DA2, there were tons of enemies that you could just mow down, but those zombies required some real pounding before they went down. Doubly so for the rage demon.

 

I suspect that playing tactically will always be more beneficial but not always necessary, especially in your average 2-3 enemy skirmish. I think it'll be more important in larger fights or after you've been in a level a while and fight after fight has chipped away at your Focus, Health, and potions. It's like...the entire map is like one big encounter.

 

 

Going back to abilities...

 

Mighty Blow - I really don't like that it creates a wall of fire once upgraded. I'm not normally one to object to stretching reality. I can get behind the Warrior's Grappling Chain ability, for instance. I can even overlook how the Warrior literally shatters the ground with a blow. But creating a wall of fire?

 

It just seems like a bit much to me. I'll likely just avoid the upgrade.

Actually, the Earthshaking Strike upgrade, not Mighty Blow's, is what creates the Wall of Fire.

[Adhin]

@andar91 : Mage's are NOT getting more then 4 base skill tabs. I've pointed that out multiple times with evidence already. They are getting 4, warriors are getting 4, rogues are getting 4. Your better off letting go of that fantasy. Each tab is designed around a specific playstyle and, for whatever reason they decided 2 of those would be opposing elements, Fire and Cold. At least the spells with in that are fare more tactical minded then explode **** 5 different ways.

 

As for warrior stuff, I wanna know what the left skill next to earthshake is. I swear it has the X around the edges that mean its a focus ability (I think). If it's a focus for 2H, I wonder what it is. I mean we know mage focus abilities are like, huge game changing stuff like haste and whatnot. I can't see warrior brain stopping everything or whatever but if it requires focus it has to be powerful. That's the whole point of focus ability, for be OP and broken as hell but require that 2nd resource thats harder to come by.

 

Either way I think I'll be ignoring Earthshake. Probably end up ignoring all the right column Actives, just go down left and nab the right passives since they link up to the other sides passives. Hope it's not all magicy oriented too cause... again, weird.

[andar91]

@andar91 : Mage's are NOT getting more then 4 base skill tabs. I've pointed that out multiple times with evidence already. They are getting 4, warriors are getting 4, rogues are getting 4. Your better off letting go of that fantasy. Each tab is designed around a specific playstyle and, for whatever reason they decided 2 of those would be opposing elements, Fire and Cold. At least the spells with in that are fare more tactical minded then explode **** 5 different ways.

 

I'm not fixated on that "fantasy", but I still stand by my previous points. It seems like there are more trees than 4: We know of Inferno and Winter, and we've seen Spirit. What's the last tree? Entropy/Lightning or Creation/Earth? Can't be both cuz that would be 5. Assuming there's not a 6th which is an Inquisitor one (as seen in the latest Gamescom demo).

 

Bottom line: We aren't going to know until we know, so I'm dropping out of this conversation. I'm sick of talking in circles about it.

[andy6915]

Maybe all the tears are how your sword talents are having earthquake and fire effects... Somehow.