6397 réponses à ce sujet

[Borosini]

I thought it was sort of confusing too, but I imagine it works like this:

 

1.) Activate Shield Wall

2.) Every hit it takes consumes stamina

3.) Ability turns off when you either: 1.) Turn it off or 2.) You run out of Stamina

 

...This honestly sounds fantastic. Very skill-testing.

[PillarBiter]

The problem in a speculative thread is of course, the speculation

 

As Quinn said, we don't KNOW any of these things. And not ONE of the reporters who played the game ever mentioned anything about being restricted as per abilities for use in tactical mode. So for now, I'm pretty assuaged. I'm actually thinking DAI will have something better than a radial menu for tactiical view extra skills usage. But we'll see that when it comes to it. 

 

As for MP skills...It's normal that we won't be able to use as many skills with those characters as with the SP characters. Each of the 12 needs to be unique. Plus, it NEEDS to play as a brawler, in real time, less as a tactical game (save for cross-class combos and team-play). 

 

After reading the PC gamer interview, I'm back to being carefully optimistic, but wanting the game NAO!

[wowsuper]

You'll probably have to hold down the shield wall button as long as you want it to last.

It would make sense for it to drain stamina over time and not to let you to perform other actions while it's active.

I highly doubt that shield wall will activate and deactivate in the same way old sustained talens used to.

[LexXxich]

You'll probably have to hold down the shield wall button as long as you want it to last.
It would make sense for it to drain stamina over time and not to let you to perform other actions while it's active.
I highly doubt that shield wall will activate and deactivate in the same way old sustained talens used to.

Possible. For MP. I can hardly see how this can work for pause-and-pay party management.
 

...This honestly sounds fantastic. Very skill-testing.

 
 And very liable for micro-management if you need to watch such abilities' usage on 4 characters.
 

And not ONE of the reporters who played the game ever mentioned anything about being restricted as per abilities for use in tactical mode. So for now, I'm pretty assuaged. I'm actually thinking DAI will have something better than a radial menu for tactiical view extra skills usage.

This has a very simple explanation. Journalists were not given a full playthrough, so they never noticed this restriction. Because their characters were in low/mid levels and didn't have more than 8 abilities to choose from.

[PillarBiter]

This has a very simple explanation. Journalists were not given a full playthrough, so they never noticed this restriction. Because their characters were in low/mid levels and didn't have more than 8 abilities to choose from.

 

Please keep looking at life the worst possible way, at least you won't be let down by anything. The problem is you won't get to enjoy anything either. Your choice.

 

That said... I don't even believe your statement. So many people have played it already at demos (not including gazillions of test players). No way none of them noticed this unless they had a good alternative way than the radial.

[LexXxich]

That said... I don't even believe your statement. So many people have played it already at demos (not including gazillions of test players). No way none of them noticed this unless they had a good alternative way than the radial.

Belief is not required to make deductions based on publicly available data. Which are:
1. Previews so far mention being given at most a day to play DAI (and being denied KB/M for controls), while BW themselves state that just the main questline is 50 hours long.
2. Public demos (and videos recorded with those demos) so far shown characters with levels ranging from 4 to 16, while level cap is 25-30.

Based on this it stands to reason that most nobody outside of Bioware's own QA and "friends and family" beta-testers had a full playthrough of DAI. And those combined certainly not number in gazillions.
It's possible also that some of those testers did rise the issue of being limited to 8 actions. And that issue was deemed non-critical or irrelevant in light of design decisions such limit was supposed to support. DA2's "reinforcements" feature comes to mind as an example of a possible analogy.

[Hellion Rex]

Nerd Appropriate ‏@NerdAppropriate

NEW: Hands on @dragonage Inquisition Multiplayer at #PAX! -- http://bit.ly/1Cav9Uz  - New combat details emerge!

 

[Biotic Sage]

[wowsuper]

So PC will share the 8 talent restriction with consoles. Oh, well...

[andar91]

Mike Laidlaw‏@Mike_Laidlaw

PC Question 3: Why 8? A: 32 abilities (along with passives/upgrades) across the party provides a broad spectrum of tactical options.

[Kage]

Mike also confirmed by twitter that only 8 skills in PC, and changes are between combats. So yeah, worst case we imagined

 

And then from MP:

Also in her arsenal were an AOE aura, mighty blow, and the reaver’s signature life draining attack

 

Reaver has the aura of pain, but not as a passive, but an activated ability. Maybe they are ticks while draining stamina? Aaaaand, the claw drains life!!!! SWEET!!!!!!!!!!

[andar91]

I still truly do not think it will be a huge deal. Not many fights will be THAT ridiculously long (except some boss fights probably).

 

I'm more interested in his acknowledgement (and trying to interpret it) that there are 32 abilities "across the party".

 

 

 

Oh, I'm dumb. He meant at a time in combat.

 

I was trying to figure out how many abilities per tree lol.

[wowsuper]

 

Mike also confirmed by twitter that only 8 skills in PC, and changes are between combats. So yeah, worst case we imagined 

 

Reaver has the aura of pain, but not as a passive, but an activated ability. Maybe they are ticks while draining stamina? Aaaaand, the claw drains life!!!! SWEET!!!!!!!!!!

 

It's not that terrible. The problem won't present itself until an advenced, high level stage of the game and a couple of moves at most will be left unmapped since there are so few of them.

 

Those flashy claws should have been a damn blood mage spell. Uh...! How irritating.

[Borosini]

When it comes to this whole "8 abilities sucks!" deal, I'm reminded of the adage "restrictions breed creativity."

 

I do also think it will be less of an issue than is feared, given the way the trees are shaping up.

[andar91]

When it comes to this whole "8 abilities sucks!" deal, I'm reminded of the adage "restrictions breed creativity."

 

I do also think it will be less of an issue than is feared, given the way the trees are shaping up.

 

Plus, I think there will be lots of conversations about builds along the lines of:

 

"Yeah, so I used Wall of Fire before I laid down a Fire Mine..."

 

"Wait, you use Fire Mine with Wall of Fire? What's the point?"

 

"Well, I..."

 

And so on...

 

Basically, lots of different ways of taking advantage of different combinations of abilities, and THAT's not even including combinations between classes.

 

Example: A mage lays down a Fire Mine, a Warrior Bull Rushes or whatever them into the Mine while it primes, Mage uses lightning or ice to hold them in place so they get roasted.

 

Example 2: Warrior taunts foes to gather around him, Mage uses Static Cage to confine them to a small area, and then the party lays into them with AoE's like Blizzard, Hail of Arrows (visible in the PAX demo last year), Firestorm, and so on.

[Abraham_uk]

Belief is not required to make deductions based on publicly available data. Which are:
1. Previews so far mention being given at most a day to play DAI (and being denied KB/M for controls), while BW themselves state that just the main questline is 50 hours long.
2. Public demos (and videos recorded with those demos) so far shown characters with levels ranging from 4 to 16, while level cap is 25-30.

Based on this it stands to reason that most nobody outside of Bioware's own QA and "friends and family" beta-testers had a full playthrough of DAI. And those combined certainly not number in gazillions.
It's possible also that some of those testers did rise the issue of being limited to 8 actions. And that issue was deemed non-critical or irrelevant in light of design decisions such limit was supposed to support. DA2's "reinforcements" feature comes to mind as an example of a possible analogy.

 

What do you mean by 8 actions?

 

Does this mean that each class has 8 active/sustained abilities?

So in total there are actually 24 active/sustained abilities?

 

I know I earlier stated quality over quantity, but that seems a bit too few for my liking.

 

 

So as a mage I only have 8 spells.

As a rogue I only have 8 talents.

As a warrior I only have 8 talents.

 

Does this include specialisations? How does that work. So there are actually more skill trees than active/sustained abilities?

Are you honestly telling me that there are entire skill trees made entirely of passives.

 

 

I doubt this is the case, but if it is I'd be very cross.

Come on! This is definitely a hoax.

[andar91]

What do you mean by 8 actions?

 

Does this mean that each class has 8 active/sustained abilities?

So in total there are actually 24 active/sustained abilities?

 

I know I earlier stated quality over quantity, but that seems a bit too few for my liking.

 

 

So as a mage I only have 8 spells.

As a rogue I only have 8 talents.

As a warrior I only have 8 talents.

 

Does this include specialisations? How does that work. So there are actually more skill trees than active/sustained abilities?

Are you honestly telling me that there are entire skill trees made entirely of passives.

 

 

I doubt this is the case, but if it is I'd be very cross.

Come on! This is definitely a hoax.

 

No, no no no no no no no.

 

Take a deep breath.

 

You get plenty of abilities (200 across all classes including passives and, probably, upgrades).

 

You can have 8 of the abilities that you have available at a time either on the face buttons (console) or quickbar (PC). And only 8 (active abilities - passives are passives, obviously).

 

You can change which abilities are active in the field as long as you aren't in combat.

[Borosini]

Just thought of something.

 

My rogue with Stealth suddenly became a much more valuable scout.

[andar91]

Just thought of something.

 

My rogue with Stealth suddenly became a much more valuable scout.

 

HOLY CRAP. THAT IS AN EXCELLENT POINT.

[Gamemako]

It's not that terrible. The problem won't present itself until an advenced, high level stage of the game and probably a couple of moves at most will be left unmapped since there are so few of them.

Largely depends on the number of available talent points. I've been poking around guessing at a 35 total point cap, which is likely 13-16 talents total. If you can only get 25 points, which is pretty low (level cap of 20 or so), you'll get 9-12 active talents. At a bare minimum 1-4 will be left unmapped. If the cap goes up to 35, you would expect half of your abilities to be unmapped, with a number excess abilities taken for the sake of skipping over them and getting to the passives underneath.
 

When it comes to this whole "8 abilities sucks!" deal, I'm reminded of the adage "restrictions breed creativity."

Just a lazy retelling of "necessity is the mother of invention". Sure, when you have a tool for a situation, you don't have to find another way. But in the limits of a a game, you're already making that call when you select a talent at all. There's an opportunity cost to taking the talent outright. When you limit the number of talents you can bring, you don't really find a way, you just use the same ability more and rely more heavily on certain overpowered abilities. You had 3 abilities in ME3MP, but that doesn't mean people found creative solutions to jack. They just relied more heavily on singular abilities. I didn't go into a Drellguard platinum solo thinking "what can I do with these 3 abilities?" No, I came in with trained reflexes to mashing Charge and grenades and not even speccing Pull at all. No creativity, just skill. People didn't figure out creative ways to run a Gethfiltrator; they just spammed 1-3-shoot-repeat until everything fell over. Creativity was never the strong point of ME3MP except in the creative ways people found to break the AI and horde design (e.g. lazy platinum farming strategies). It was all about efficiency and skill.

Another way of saying it is that since you're not offering any new way approach a problem, you're just putting a low level cap of about 15 on everybody and telling them to be more efficient (not creative!) with their picks.

//EDIT: For another refutation of creativity or challenge, look at how ability effects are crammed together. Glyph of Paralysis was shoveled into a fire glyph not because it offered challenge but because you have to make those 8 abilities pay rent in vastly more situations than they otherwise could. Making abilities useful in more situations doesn't increase challenge, it decreases challenge. You never have to go far for the cure for what ails you. I still believe the decision was made to make the game perfectly playable without any pausing, which is why I assumed they made the call because of MP (can't pause in that mode). Because a radial menu means a combat pause, disabling it means you can design encounters for the number of abilities used without pausing and not offer an advantage to others who pause regularly.
 

You can change which abilities are active in the field as long as you aren't in combat.

People won't for reasons I've already discussed. The option might as well not even exist, honestly. I'm going to end up looking over trees, picking my abilities, and then spending all excess points past those 8 skipping over talents and jamming passives. I'm pretty sure they abilities are going to be dodge/KEx3/barrier/heal up front, which leaves me 2 slots at best.

[andar91]

People won't for reasons I've already discussed. The option might as well not even exist, honestly. I'm going to end up looking over trees, picking my abilities, and then spending all excess points past those 8 skipping over talents and jamming passives. I'm pretty sure they abilities are going to be dodge/KEx3/barrier/heal up front, which leaves me 2 slots at best.

 

I was simply stating the ability to do so to that poster.

 

And how do you know? I've read your reasoning, but I think it's assuming quite a bit; not all players play the same. Some almost certainly won't switch abilities, just as you say, but others will...I probably will. It'll depend on the abilities themselves and how much I want an ability to be available for a particular situation.

[Gamemako]

And how do you know? I've read your reasoning, but I think it's assuming quite a bit; not all players play the same. Some almost certainly won't switch abilities, just as you say, but others will...I probably will. It'll depend on the abilities themselves and how much I want an ability to be available for a particular situation.

You're overestimating the playability of repeated selection. It takes longer and is less playable to change your skills for an encounter than to just dive in and replay the fight if you screw up. Remember that you lose an ability you could otherwise have used if you swap something out, you're more likely to make a mistake unless you pause for every single ability you use, and you're plenty likely to forget the ability you just swapped in when you don't use it in normal combat. It's a waste of time for little to no benefit to customize your abilities before fights unless there's some mechanic which is insanely crippling, which won't be done because you can't guarantee a counterpick in any player's arsenal due to talent selection.

I can give you plenty of examples of what really happens. While playing the ArcheAge beta, I rearranged my skill bar and kept accidentally using Lasso to pull opponents away from my a teammates' attacks because it took the place of Arc Lightning, my highest-damage single-target spell. I tried to reassign my DRG ability bar in FFXIV to add Foresight so I could eat Wicked Wheel, and ended up forgetting to use it (a deadly mistake). And then I'd activate it instead of Bloodbath when I wanted to recover HP, because I'd forget I swapped it out and wanted to use Bloodbath.

[Borosini]

a lot of things

 

I typed out a very long response and seem to have deleted it accidentally. 

 

I'll just say: I think a lot of what you say has merit. A lot will depend on how the UI facilitates swapping abilities. Too early to tell on that.

 

There also has to be a very good reason (probably many reasons) for this change, considering how much time and care has gone into this game. Your belief that it is related to no-pause multiplayer is plausible, but I would also remind you of the interviews in which devs have said their goal for Nightmare is that the player is required to use tactical cam, pause-and-play, ideal positioning, along with a well-chosen selection of abilities in order to succeed.

 

Some alternative rationale I can come up with:

 

a.) We're meant to play the party, not the Inquisitor. While I'm not the most accomplished of DA tacticians, I will say that my need to switch between party members in DA:O became almost nil as my skill set filled up. Awakening was such a walk in the park that I shifted up to Nightmare. Even then, my little ginger Surana might as well have been starring in a musical. By contrast, devs seem to be emphasizing the party, and the need to build characters, including the Inquisitor, to a certain role. Thankfully we seem to have leeway to creatively determine that role.

 

b.) This is a way to balance the classes. Specifically, this increases the utility of the rogue as I mentioned above. I'm increasingly glad I settled on a Stealthy Trevelyan some time ago.