b.) This is a way to balance the classes. Specifically, this increases the utility of the rogue as I mentioned above. I'm increasingly glad I settled on a Stealthy Trevelyan some time ago.
The only issue I have with that is that I think the classes were already balanced in DA2. Rogue was given enough CC while still putting out insane damage. Isabela was friggin broken by the end of that game.
The only issue I have with that is that I think the classes were already balanced in DA2. Rogue was given enough CC while still putting out insane damage. Isabela was friggin broken by the end of that game.
I should clarify: It's a different way to balance the classes. Honestly, I don't remember a lot about DA2's combat because I was rather off-put by it. It does still sound like Rogues can be built for serious spike damage this time around, which isn't my personal preference but hey—a role's a role, someone's gotta do it.
Balance is such a tricky topic because it means different things. Balance in combat only? Or do we include out-of-combat usage like picking locks or the ability to dispel a magical barrier? Personally, I like to consider everything, though in such a combat-heavy game (or any game), I think every class should be relevant in combat (or at least have the capability to be relevant).
I think your (Caslon) point about balance is valid, but more for Origins than DA2. Limiting abilities would have balanced Origins a lot since mages inevitability had more abilities than everybody else considering their 1.) huge amount of abilities and 2.) lack of passives relative to Rogues and Warriors that were riddled with passives.
If we go from DA2, though, all classes had the same number of abilities for the most part - everybody had some passives and upgrades so characters were generally aligned with each other on that front.
Maybe this is a way to balance some classes overlapping with others, like Knight Enchanter.
Remember how people said that, it's not fair to be a Mage that fights like a Warrior, but can cast all the spells at the same time?
Well, now you can't. You have to choose your KE abilities, and your buffs, that take place in the bar, leaving the nukes somewhat behind. There is a chance that Spec abilities might take more than half the bar.
We might be getting more news on specializations soon. I was just over on the Bioware site, and they've removed the classes section entirely. Hmmm.
http://www.dragonage.com/#!/en_US/home
We might be getting more news on specializations soon. I was just over on the Bioware site, and they've removed the classes section entirely. Hmmm.
It's there for me, it's the Inquisitor section now.
Maybe this is a way to balance some classes overlapping with others, like Knight Enchanter.
Remember how people said that, it's not fair to be a Mage that fights like a Warrior, but can cast all the spells at the same time?
Well, now you can't. You have to choose your KE abilities, and your buffs, that take place in the bar, leaving the nukes somewhat behind. There is a chance that Spec abilities might take more than half the bar.
That's a good point, though I doubt it was the sole reason. But yeah, it was a little cheap that Arcane Warriors (which are different than KE as said by Laidlaw) could do so much and still be in heavy armor and be throwing around a greataxe.
Maybe this is a way to balance some classes overlapping with others, like Knight Enchanter.
Remember how people said that, it's not fair to be a Mage that fights like a Warrior, but can cast all the spells at the same time?
Well, now you can't. You have to choose your KE abilities, and your buffs, that take place in the bar, leaving the nukes somewhat behind. There is a chance that Spec abilities might take more than half the bar.
I don't know if you were one of those people but in response to this point, the Arcane Warrior's melee was never on par with warriors or rogues. At best they had a reasonably strong auto-attack that was overshadowed by the need to constantly sheath their weapon to cast the majority of spells. Warriors had a wide range of knockdown, stun, and debuff weapon attacks, and Rogues had all of this plus backstabs, CUN based damage bonuses, and bleed damage. An AW couldn't even use Mind Blast without first putting their weapons away, which broke the momentum of combat and added ~2 seconds to casting time. I don't think this is a fair comparison. The true advantages of the Arcane Warrior were the defensive abilities: Shimmering Shield and Fade Shroud. While those two sustains were admittedly OP, the AW melee abilities were actually much worse than those of a trained Warrior or Rogue.
I will, however agree with your point that this 8 skill setup will greatly alter the playstyles between KEs and other mages. I think there were 3 active skills on the KE tree that we last saw? Add to that the dodge ability and we're already at half the spell limit. I suppose you could take the spec for the passives and still play as a caster like the DA:O AW, but I highly doubt that will be a useful strategy this time around...
I don't know if you were one of those people but in response to this point, the Arcane Warrior's melee was never on par with warriors or rogues. At best they had a reasonably strong auto-attack that was overshadowed by the need to constantly sheath their weapon to cast the majority of spells. Warriors had a wide range of knockdown, stun, and debuff weapon attacks, and Rogues had all of this plus backstabs, CUN based damage bonuses, and bleed damage. An AW couldn't even use Mind Blast without first putting their weapons away, which broke the momentum of combat and added ~2 seconds to casting time. I don't think this is a fair comparison. The true advantages of the Arcane Warrior were the defensive abilities: Shimmering Shield and Fade Shroud. While those two sustains were admittedly OP, the AW melee abilities were actually much worse than those of a trained Warrior or Rogue.
I will, however agree with your point that this 8 skill setup will greatly alter the playstyles between KEs and other mages. I think there were 3 active skills on the KE tree that we last saw? Add to that the dodge ability and we're already at half the spell limit. I suppose you could take the spec for the passives and still play as a caster like the DA:O AW, but I highly doubt that will be a useful strategy this time around...
Well, most of what I'm about to say is theoretical because I never played as an Arcane Warrior, but I think the problem with that class was more that it had little identity of its own.
Shapeshifter could allow the mage to change shape, and no other class could do that. Spirit Healers had access to additional healing spells that non-specialized mages couldn't cast. Blood mage had bucket-loads of flavor (and blood!) as well as alternative spell fuel and a mix of powerful control/damage abilities.
Arcane Warrior, on the other hand, mostly felt like a way to cast spells as usual while doing basic attacks with heavy weapons and wearing heavy armor. It was a sort of clumsy link between two classes, but it didn't stand on its own.
What I would like to see from a class like that (maybe Knight Enchanter) is a mage who wears armor, sure, but also attacks and fights, perhaps at close range, in a uniquely magical wayl. This could include neat staff melee combos. Moves like...
Staff Assault: You deal 200% weapon damage per hit in a 3 hit combo at melee range with your staff. Upgrade it so that it ends with a fourth thrust of pure force (imagine a force push) that stuns the target and knocks them back.
Shockwave: You slam your staff into the ground and destabilize foes near you; foes within 5 meters are stunned for 5 seconds and suffer a 25% penalty to Armor for 10 seconds.
Blades of Force: You conjure blades made of pure energy that surround you and harrass your attackers. Anyone in melee range takes 100% weapon damage every time they attack you for 10 seconds.
Implosive Force: You unleash a massive wave of energy that pulls all enemies within range towards you. All enemies within 10 meters are pulled towards you.
And you could have passives like:
Arcane Combatant: You have learned to withstand the rigors of battle with the skill of a warrior. You can wear heavier armor and gain a 10% bonus to Armor.
Shimmering Shield: Your combat hardiness now extends to the attacks of other mages. Whenever your mana is full, you gain 25% resistance to hostile spells (like a dwarf).
Something like that. That's really, really rough, but those are ideas I'd have for a class like this.
I typed out a very long response and seem to have deleted it accidentally.
a.) We're meant to play the party, not the Inquisitor.
b.) This is a way to balance the classes.
Maybe this is a way to balance some classes overlapping with others, like Knight Enchanter. Remember how people said that, it's not fair to be a Mage that fights like a Warrior, but can cast all the spells at the same time?
Well, most of what I'm about to say is theoretical because I never played as an Arcane Warrior, but I think the problem with that class was more that it had little identity of its own.
Arcane Warrior, on the other hand, mostly felt like a way to cast spells as usual while doing basic attacks with heavy weapons and wearing heavy armor. It was a sort of clumsy link between two classes, but it didn't stand on its own.
Well... if that's the case then I'll just reiterate that near invincibility is what made the AW stand out, not auto-attacks (which were lacking when compared to trained fighters). Heavy armor was also optional, as you could get a lot of mileage out of the Reaper's Vestments or a similar set of enchanted robes... this allowed you to minimize fatigue while still receiving a large defensive bonus from Fade Shroud and Shimmering Shield, which included 75% (?) elemental damage resistance, roughly 90% physical and mental resistance... etc... Heavy armor was only useful when it provided a willpower or stamina (mana) boost or some other useful enchantments. Even then you still had to deal with an absurd fatigue level... It was not always the best choice, and from my experience, the AW was more effective as a caster, regardless of what they were wearing.
What I would like to see from a class like that (maybe Knight Enchanter) is a mage who wears armor, sure, but also attacks and fights, perhaps at close range, in a uniquely magical wayl. This could include neat staff melee combos. Moves like...
-snip-
Something like that. That's really, really rough, but those are ideas I'd have for a class like this.
These sound like good ideas that would lead to a fun build... the AW is gone and I see no reason why KE shouldn't be more melee focused than its predecessor. I've always hoped for a few weapon skills to justify the use of melee by a mage, and based on the screen shot of the KE spell tree, it looks like we'll be getting exactly that. Utilizing both the staff and conjured weapons sounds cool... hopefully Bioware came up with something similarly fresh and unique.
No, i wasn't one of those people.
What made AW overpowered was not the spec itself anyway, but in conjuction with Spirit Healer and Blood Mage, which made you an unstoppable killing machine that never died.
There is obviously no direct benefit to hitting things from close range, rather than afar, but the difference is that people that can hit things from close range, can usually handle the retaliation as well.
Arcane Warrior in my eyes was more of a "magic turtle", armored and still casting, the weapons were mostly decorative from what i remember. KE seems different, like the weapons matter, and obviously we're gonna have a playstyle that is a deviation from the basic Mage. Which i like.
Indeed, i agree that Arcane Warrior lost its "magic", when i realised that i was just a Mage again like any other, that could wear armor, and hold a sword for like, 10 seconds. Afterwards i needed to cast.
I liked AW as a fallback spec for when "all went wrong". And it let me wear that one piece of leather armour from Leliana's DLC. Never actually used it as frontline fighter.
Guest_IceQuinn_*
Jar of Hearts BEES! 
PS: From MP. So. Might differ from single-player #WellDuh #ButJustInCase ;P
Rock Armor Potion isn't exactly news; but I'm wondering about Pitch Grenade. Could that be the Grease spell made potion, something entirely new (more a sticky trap/CC), a mix of sorts? Curious, and excited about the possibilities. Stick & sting'em! Sounds like a fun combo, no...? 
Jar of
HeartsBEES!
PS: From MP. So. Might differ from single-player #WellDuh #ButJustInCase ;P
Rock Armor Potion isn't exactly news; but I'm wondering about Pitch Grenade. Could that be the Grease spell made potion, something entirely new (more a sticky trap/CC), a mix of sorts? Curious, and excited about the possibilities. Stick & sting'em! Sounds like a fun combo, no...?
I remember once making a DA:O mage that took Stinging Swarm as early as possible, as well as some lightning spells. One of the few times I've ever used Grease without fire spell backup. ...It was, actually, kind of fun.
Jar of
HeartsBEES!SpoilerPS: From MP. So. Might differ from single-player #WellDuh #ButJustInCase ;P
Rock Armor Potion isn't exactly news; but I'm wondering about Pitch Grenade. Could that be the Grease spell made potion, something entirely new (more a sticky trap/CC), a mix of sorts? Curious, and excited about the possibilities. Stick & sting'em! Sounds like a fun combo, no...?
I'm letting you all know now, that's going to be my signature weapon.
Jar of
HeartsBEES!
That's it, I'm changing my Origin ID to Oprah Winfrey.
Dammit! Why didn't I think of that one 
Also more back on topic...
The more I think about it, the more I actually like the 8-ability thing. For one thing, It'll allow me to focus each character more in its role. And explore them in different ways in multiple playthroughs.
Two questions only remain, what'll happen with auto-tactics, and how will we always know to switch up our abilities upon 'grave danger'?
Also more back on topic...The more I think about it, the more I actually like the 8-ability thing. For one thing, It'll allow me to focus each character more in its role. And explore them in different ways in multiple playthroughs.
Two questions only remain, what'll happen with auto-tactics, and how will we always know to switch up our abilities upon 'grave danger'?
That's one way of looking at it I guess, but man... using the same 8 abilities for 100 hours or more sounds like it's going to get really boring... we'll see.
Today I started a new DAO run. Morrigan joins with 9 spells already learned. NINE. In DAI they would not even fit xD
That's because every skill point in DAO granted you an active or sustained ability. There are far less of those in DAI.
That's one way of looking at it I guess, but man... using the same 8 abilities for 100 hours or more sounds like it's going to get really boring... we'll see.
The party has 32 not including the extra ones at the mid to late lvls which will hopefully be useful enough to swap out in certain situations, so unlikely imo and even if you do get bored you can always respec.
Dammit! Why didn't I think of that one
Also more back on topic...
The more I think about it, the more I actually like the 8-ability thing. For one thing, It'll allow me to focus each character more in its role. And explore them in different ways in multiple playthroughs.
Two questions only remain, what'll happen with auto-tactics, and how will we always know to switch up our abilities upon 'grave danger'?
You cannot change the abilities in the middle of combat, so if you are in grave danger and you didnt somehow knew before and prepared, you are screwed.
About tactics, Ive been reading all over the forum that if you do not have the skill mapped, the tactic will be ignored. (I have no confirmation on this though, although it makes sense)
I dont like this decision of mapping before combat, because you never know what you are going to face, and therefore you will always end up with the same 8 abilities mapped. This decision just kills situational skills, and gives nothing in return.
And I am starting to think this will also be true for poisons/bombs. We will craft a ton of bombs, but will only be able to map ONE. So we will just use the same one (the ones that does more damage) all the game. They could have removed the rest of bombs if that is the case.
The party has 32 not including the extra ones at the mid to late lvls which will hopefully be useful enough to swap out in certain situations, so unlikely imo and even if you do get bored you can always respec.
You don't expect there to be overlap between party members of the same class? I expect that every mage will have Blink unlocked and mapped at all times, all Warriors will have Combat Roll, etc... All Sword and Shield warriors will have at least a few skills in common... I mean, I get that you're looking at this in a more optimistic way, but let's not ignore the facts. The party won't have 32 unique abilities among them and we are not going to be able to switch during combat at all... I can't say that I'm enthusiastic about this. Respec is a valuable addition to the game but it doesn't address the problem of our characters forgetting how to use abilities and spells that they have learned simply because we as players don't have them currently mapped. If we could at least switch during combat I wouldn't mind so much, but this system is very restrictive... I'd say unnecessarily so, but maybe I'll be proven wrong when the game is in my hands.
You don't expect there to be overlap between party members of the same class? I expect that every mage will have Blink unlocked and mapped at all times, all Warriors will have Combat Roll, etc... All Sword and Shield warriors will have at least a few skills in common... I mean, I get that you're looking at this in a more optimistic way, but let's not ignore the facts. The party won't have 32 unique abilities among them and we are not going to be able to switch during combat at all... I can't say that I'm enthusiastic about this. Respec is a valuable addition to the game but it doesn't address the problem of our characters forgetting how to use abilities and spells that they have learned simply because we as players don't have them currently mapped. If we could at least switch during combat I wouldn't mind so much, but this system is very restrictive... I'd say unnecessarily so, but maybe I'll be proven wrong when the game is in my hands.
Why would you have multiple sword and shield warriors in your party?
Why would you have multiple sword and shield warriors in your party?
What kind of a question is that? lol... I don't need to follow any party guidelines to succeed in this type of game. And yes, that includes Hard and Nightmare.
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