6397 réponses à ce sujet

[Borosini]

Don't get me wrong, I am overall very positive about what we're seeing. I think that the expanded utility of what we're seeing in the elemental trees seems cool, and I'm excited to control the battlefield and isolate opponents with ice or fire or lightning CC.

 

I am very, very curious about the specs and the Spirit tree, however, and I really hope that we can still obtain that non-elemental flavor for the bulk of our spells if we choose to. Personally, I love elemental magic (especially water and earth—hence my worries), but I understand and sympathize with those who find it clichéd.

 

Regarding specs: did anyone see Solas's bright red spell icons in the Gamescom demo? Was use of those spells ever documented?

[UniformGreyColor]

I'll take a look at the video to see if I can find something.

[Borosini]

I'll take a look at the video to see if I can find something.

 

On second look I think it's just spells that are unavailable—thanks to cooldown perhaps?

[andar91]

I am very, very curious about the specs and the Spirit tree, however, and I really hope that we can still obtain that non-elemental flavor for the bulk of our spells if we choose to. Personally, I love elemental magic (especially water and earth—hence my worries), but I understand and sympathize with those who find it clichéd.

 

Just want to clarify: I never found elemental magic cliche'd. I think it's iconic, cool, and I nearly always use at least some of it.

 

For me, the change (if it is, indeed, as we fear it is) to mostly elemental spells plus Spirit and specs is that it limits options and choices...variety, basically. I'd like to have a mage who knows how to call down lightning bolts to smite her enemies...but is also skilled with curses, for instance. Magic becomes somewhat one-note in flavor when it's all elemental (note: flavor, not use, since elemental magic can clearly be used for different purposes).

[UniformGreyColor]

On second look I think it's just spells that are unavailable—thanks to cooldown perhaps?

 

 

If its the one circled, it looks like its part of the inferno tree. If its something like the x button ability, it just looks like he doesn't have enough mana to cast that one.

[Borosini]

Just want to clarify: I never found elemental magic cliche'd. I think it's iconic, cool, and I nearly always use at least some of it.

 

For me, the change (if it is, indeed, as we fear it is) to mostly elemental spells plus Spirit and specs is that it limits options and choices...variety, basically. I'd like to have a mage who knows how to call down lightning bolts to smite her enemies...but is also skilled with curses, for instance. Magic becomes somewhat one-note in flavor when it's all elemental (note: flavor, not use, since elemental magic can clearly be used for different purposes).

 

Oh, I wasn't referring to you necessarily, but for instance I saw posts in the other thread (..."Mage Abilities") saying how boring all the elemental abilities are. It's an opinion I've seen rather often of late.

 

And I completely agree about the sense of flavor. There's a big difference in how my favorite Warden feels, with his cold and earth elemental magic supplemented by glyphs and "poison" effects (walking bomb, nature staves), as compared to some other mage in a different IP who uses exclusively ice and/or earth spells. I very much hope I can still experience that kind of nuance in Inquisition.

 

 

If its the one circled, it looks like its part of the inferno tree. If its something like the x ability, it just looks like he doesn't have enough mana to cast that one.

 

Thanks—I was referring to the X ability. My mistake—sorry for not realizing before I mentioned it.

[EnduinRaylene]

The circled is Flashfire the single target fire attack they just showed in the mage ability preview, the others are Mind Blast and then some lightening ability. Not Static Cage or Lightening Bolt though.

[UniformGreyColor]

Has it been discussed that passives and abilities directly affect our stats -namely strength?

 

"But we'll buy Earthshaking Strike which will raise our strength."

[Biotic Sage]

From what I've seen so far, I'm pretty disappointed in how they've handled mages.  The DA team created some excellent lore regarding magic.  There are four schools: Primal, Spirit, Creation, and Entropy.  The schools the Inquisitor is familiar with seem to be Primal (75%) and Spirit (25%).  Yes, I'm sure some Creation and Entropic magic will be integrated into other spell trees like Necromancer or Rift Mage perhaps, or even the 5th starting tree the mage gets that has to do with being marked by the Rift (we're still not sure if everybody shares the same one or if that's just the Warrior who gets that particular one).  Also, I'm sure some of the Entropy or Creation effects will be integrated into the elemental tree abilities in some cases.

 

It just feels like a missed opportunity.  4 main schools = 4 starting spell trees...doesn't that make the most sense?  Furthermore, mages started out in the DA franchise as a completely different role than what they seem to be fulfilling now.  They used to be much more focused on buffs, debuffs, and support abilities for the entire party; now they seem to be much more about dealing direct damage.  If I wanted to play that way, I'd play as a Warrior or Rogue, or spec an elemental mage.

 

I don't know if this is valid because there's still a lot we don't know, but to me it feels like the support role is being edged out in favor of allowing all of the abilities in this game to make the most sense for multiplayer...

[pengwin21]

I don't mind most Earth spells being missing personally. Rock Armor is a potion, Earthquake is kinda in Warrior skills now, Petrify is kinda redundant with freezing. Dunno what's happening with Stonefist though.

 

The specialization trees will probably be non-elemental.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

From what I've seen so far, I'm pretty disappointed in how they've handled mages.  The DA team created some excellent lore regarding magic.  There are four schools: Primal, Spirit, Creation, and Entropy.  The schools the Inquisitor is familiar with seem to be Primal (75%) and Spirit (25%).  Yes, I'm sure some Creation and Entropic magic will be integrated into other spell trees like Necromancer or Rift Mage perhaps, or even the 5th starting tree the mage gets that has to do with being marked by the Rift (we're still not sure if everybody shares the same one or if that's just the Warrior who gets that particular one).  Also, I'm sure some of the Entropy or Creation effects will be integrated into the elemental tree abilities in some cases.

 

It just feels like a missed opportunity.  4 main schools = 4 starting spell trees...doesn't that make the most sense?  Furthermore, mages started out in the DA franchise as a completely different role than what they seem to be fulfilling now.  They used to be much more focused on buffs, debuffs, and support abilities for the entire party; now they seem to be much more about dealing direct damage.  If I wanted to play that way, I'd play as a Warrior or Rogue, or spec an elemental mage.

 

I don't know if this is valid because there's still a lot we don't know, but to me it feels like the support role is being edged out in favor of allowing all of the abilities in this game to make the most sense for multiplayer...

 

Hey now, Multiplayer is not going going to affect single player ! Didn't you get the memo ? Bioware has said this before and it must be completely true ! This new approach is all about tactics, choices, strategy, freedom and role-playing ! 

 

*end sarcasm*

 

One of the main selling points of the mage class is flexibility and choice. By this I mean magic itself is very flexible and diverse. 

 

You can accomplish something either with the manipulation of the elements, the manipulation of the spirit, the manipulation of blood, the manipulation of mind, the creation of force, the summoning of ally, the enhancement of the environment.

 

There is a reason why when you say mage, it can mean many things from wizards to sorcerers to warlocks to hedge mages to illusionists to summoners to healers to battlemages to nightblades to elementalists to witchhunters.

 

Wizards are the genius student, the one who studies for years to become the best. Sorcerers are the natural prodigious arcane masters. Warlocks are dark wizards. Summoners are conjurers who can conjure anything from weapons to armor to beasts. Healers are mages who specialize in healing and restorative magic. Battlemages are mages who wield weapons, use destructive magic and wear heavy armor. Nightblades are a mix of mages and rogues, where they use illusiory magics to augment their speed and stealth. Elementalists are like Avatars, masters of what we perceived as elements in the ancient times and in the middle ages. 

 

What Dragon Age Inquisiton seems to be doing is greatly limiting all of that in favor of making every mage primarily elementalists with limited support and only three archetypal specializations. I don't you about you but in a world that is much bigger with more NPCs, you would expect moar specialization options, more diverse schools of magic. You would expect the Circle Mage to have different skillsets as opposed to the Dalish Mage and the Qunari Mercenary Mage. 

 

"Ah yes, lore. The building block of a role playing game. We have dismissed the claim of its existence."

 

Fire, lightning, earth and ice can be grouped under the Primal school with fire, lightning, earth and ice causing different side effects.

 

Fire causes fear and DoT, lightning shocks & drains mana, frost slow / paralyzes & drains stamina, earth knocks enemy down & can cause poison DoT. 

 

Why they gave all three different trees is beyond me. They could just have had an Elemental school tree or Primal school tree where you have spells like Elemental Walls, Elemental Seeker Swarms, Elemental Rune, Elemental Enchantments, Elemental Storms and then have a main spell that allows you to invoke fire or frost or lightning or earth elements. That would have made more sense. 

 

Similarly creation and some element of the spirit school could have been expanded and given more utility. Restorative magics should have been used to boost allies, attack undead (life restoration is the antithesis of death), summoning benevolent wisps and spirits to aid in fights. Entropy on the other hand, could have been used as the debuff / socially allowed dark wizard tree. Weakening, debuffs, hexes, curses, morphing enemies into harmless forms, health drain, etc. Again, this would have made more sense and be more of an evolution from DA:O and DA2 as opposed to just randomly combining them with elements. 

 

What they are doing now screams poor design choice and streamlining. Of course, of course, this is all in the name of freedom and more choices.

[wowsuper]

 

Hey now, Multiplayer is not going going to affect single player ! Didn't you get the memo ? Bioware has said this before and it must be completely true ! This new approach is all about tactics, choices, strategy, freedom and role-playing ! 

 

*end sarcasm*

 

One of the main selling points of the mage class is flexibility and choice. By this I mean magic itself is very flexible and diverse. 

 

You can accomplish something either with the manipulation of the elements, the manipulation of the spirit, the manipulation of blood, the manipulation of mind, the creation of force, the summoning of ally, the enhancement of the environment.

 

There is a reason why when you say mage, it can mean many things from wizards to sorcerers to warlocks to hedge mages to illusionists to summoners to healers to battlemages to nightblades to elementalists to witchhunters.

 

Wizards are the genius student, the one who studies for years to become the best. Sorcerers are the natural prodigious arcane masters. Warlocks are dark wizards. Summoners are conjurers who can conjure anything from weapons to armor to beasts. Healers are mages who specialize in healing and restorative magic. Battlemages are mages who wield weapons, use destructive magic and wear heavy armor. Nightblades are a mix of mages and rogues, where they use illusiory magics to augment their speed and stealth. Elementalists are like Avatars, masters of what we perceived as elements in the ancient times and in the middle ages. 

 

What Dragon Age Inquisiton seems to be doing is greatly limiting all of that in favor of making every mage primarily elementalists with limited support and only three archetypal specializations. I don't you about you but in a world that is much bigger with more NPCs, you would expect moar specialization options, more diverse schools of magic. You would expect the Circle Mage to have different skillsets as opposed to the Dalish Mage and the Qunari Mercenary Mage. 

 

"Ah yes, lore. The building block of a role playing game. We have dismissed the claim of its existence."

 

Fire, lightning, earth and ice can be grouped under the Primal school with fire, lightning, earth and ice causing different side effects.

 

Fire causes fear and DoT, lightning shocks & drains mana, frost slow / paralyzes & drains stamina, earth knocks enemy down & can cause poison DoT. 

 

Why they gave all three different trees is beyond me. They could just have had an Elemental school tree or Primal school tree where you have spells like Elemental Walls, Elemental Seeker Swarms, Elemental Rune, Elemental Enchantments, Elemental Storms and then have a main spell that allows you to invoke fire or frost or lightning or earth elements. That would have made more sense. 

 

Similarly creation and some element of the spirit school could have been expanded and given more utility. Restorative magics should have been used to boost allies, attack undead (life restoration is the antithesis of death), summoning benevolent wisps and spirits to aid in fights. Entropy on the other hand, could have been used as the debuff / socially allowed dark wizard tree. Weakening, debuffs, hexes, curses, morphing enemies into harmless forms, health drain, etc. Again, this would have made more sense and be more of an evolution from DA:O and DA2 as opposed to just randomly combining them with elements. 

 

What they are doing now screams poor design choice and streamlining. Of course, of course, this is all in the name of freedom and more choices.

 

 

This is the exact same way I feel about the whole matter.

There are so many ways in which they could have arranged the four schools in four trees without them losing their identities into a elemental soup! Why the bloody hell are they limiting the roleplaying choices avaliable to the players?! Because for action oriented newbies a flashy elemental spell is cooler? That's the only feaible explanation I can imagine, but I can't believe we lost all of the spell system variety for this reason: it's too silly even for Bioware.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

This is the exact same way I feel about the whole matter.

There are so many ways in which they could have arranged the four schools in four trees without them losing their identities into a elemental soup! Why the bloody hell are they limiting the roleplaying choices avaliable to the players?! Because for action oriented newbies a flashy elemental spell is cooler? That's the only feaible explanation I can imagine, but I can't believe we lost all of the spell system variety for this reason: it's too silly even for Bioware.

 

You answered your own question. Action-oriented-newbies MMO flash. I mean, there has to be a reason why they are making the animations of not just mages but all the classes over the top. It clashes with the whole fantasy RPG with realistic and dark themes. 

[Kage]

That is not a bad thing per se, maybe you do not like it and you would rather have more realistic skills like in DAO.

However, I prefer this abilities for warriors than the ones in DAO. In DAO I found that playing with a warrior was boring. You could only have fun switching constantly between your characters, because watching your Warden hit with a 2handed while ocasionally selecting a skill (that many looked almost the same, but had different debuffs) was really boring.

 

I had a lot of fun in DAO combat, but I understand that there are people who prefer to focus in their character and not manage all the party, and that must have been boring.

 

Also if you dont focus so much on realism, you can present skills that are really fun to play with. Imagine the CHAIN (come ever here!!) of that warrior. That is very fun to use... And also to use in tactics! I will surely do a tactic with Cassandra that says:

- If someone attacks in melée the Inquisitor -- COME OVER HEAR!!!!!!!!111

 

I will smile each single time that happens.

[Patchwork]

It would have been nice to have all the elements in one tree and then the form it takes be dependent on the staff, I loved the lightning effect of DA2's Hypnotist's Staff and the green gloopy base attack that came with nature staffs. We already know the basis of fire and ice spells are identical that could have easily been carried over to the others freeing up the other 3 trees for different playstyles. Earth could be expanded to include nature spells like Thornblades. 

 

I wonder if there will be a handwaving lore explanation saying something like the Fade tares are making magic difficult to control and some types are easier to use than others. Benevolent spirits retreating deeper into the Fade and refusing to help could explain the loss of Spirit Mage.  

 

What I would have loved to do is craft spells or layer effects on base spells. 

 

I wonder if Tempest is having Celene like rings so your weapon gets an elemental kick. 

[LexXxich]

Even in DA2 you could make a mage that didn't do any damage outside of autoattack, by choosing to dip into Entropy, Creation, Force Mage and Spirit Healer. Might not have been the most effective strategy for all situations, but it was a choice one could make.
I'm disappointed that BW is taking the choice away.

[ZerioctheTank]

Perhaps I misread something and if I did I apologize but since guard and barrier seem to have a weakness to certain attacks; do they provide protection (or temp hp) when hit by certain attacks?

Like for example you have a warrior and a mage attacking your character with guard active and you are hit with a physical and magical attack. Will guard only protect you from the physical attack or both? And will barrier be the opposite?

[Kage]

It would have been nice to have all the elements in one tree and then the form it takes be dependent on the staff,

 

Although that could be a very nice touch, the spells would have ended being generic and boring.

Thanks to the spells being different spells, we can have a wall of fire which does damage, and a wall of ice which is just to block. And we can have static cage, which is really cool. A static cage of fire would not make much sense.

 

If they went and did these SAME cool spells, and make them depending in the staff you have, they would be really OP and much more work to develop. If you could choose between static cage, fireball and blizzard, depending on the staff you take, that would be so OP everybody would end up with the same skill progression.

 

And I rather have these spells, than generic nuke/wall/glyph where the only difference if the type of the damage.

 

 

Even in DA2 you could make a mage that didn't do any damage outside of autoattack, by choosing to dip into Entropy, Creation, Force Mage and Spirit Healer. Might not have been the most effective strategy for all situations, but it was a choice one could make.
I'm disappointed that BW is taking the choice away.

 

 

I agree.

However, there is still a remote chance we will be able to do the same. VERY REMOTE. But, if you take only skills from spirit (dispel, mind blast, barrier, the misterious heal, etc) and Necromancy has no damage but supportive spells.... (animate dead, debuff, etc).... Maybe, just maybe, you dont have any damage spell. Until level 22-23 that is. Then you will need to take an elemental nuke xD

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Although that could be a very nice touch, the spells would have ended being generic and boring.

Thanks to the spells being different spells, we can have a wall of fire which does damage, and a wall of ice which is just to block. And we can have static cage, which is really cool. A static cage of fire would not make much sense.

 

If they went and did these SAME cool spells, and make them depending in the staff you have, they would be really OP and much more work to develop. If you could choose between static cage, fireball and blizzard, depending on the staff you take, that would be so OP everybody would end up with the same skill progression.

 

And I rather have these spells, than generic nuke/wall/glyph where the only difference if the type of the damage.

 

 

 

 

I agree.

However, there is still a remote chance we will be able to do the same. VERY REMOTE. But, if you take only skills from spirit (dispel, mind blast, barrier, the misterious heal, etc) and Necromancy has no damage but supportive spells.... (animate dead, debuff, etc).... Maybe, just maybe, you dont have any damage spell. Until level 22-23 that is. Then you will need to take an elemental nuke xD

 

You don't have to have a generic nuke/wall/glyph spells where the only difference is damage. 

 

All you need to do give players spells like Elemental Swarm, Elemental Wall, Elemental Glyph and then have an Invoke spell that allows players to cycle between the 4 elements with each element having its own effects. Fire does DoT and causes fear. Ice slows or paralyzes and drains stamina. Shock stuns, travels instantly / the quickest and drains mana. Earth can cause knockdown and posion DoT. 

 

Invoke would have its sub branch where the player can decide to either specialize in specific element or not and to increases the chance of the secondary effects of these elements triggering. Swarms, Wall and Glyphs will have their own sub branches that can increase the number of swarms or the number of glyph that can be cast or the range of the wall. 

 

How would this be OP I have no idea. DoTA 2 does this to an extent with Invoker and he is a very challenging Hero to master. It increases the need for a magi to micromanage and makes the players memorize and understand the differences between each element as opposed to just "Rawr DPS, flashyness !" It would make the wizard / magi a class you have to properly learn as opposed to just ability spamming which is what this game seems to be going for. 

 

Doing this also would free up space that can be used for other magi trees. 

 

So I don't understand your "this will be generic and OP" premise. 

[andar91]

If they really did make elemental spells based on attunement or weapon (attunement would be better, I think), I would hope they wouldn't go by "glyph" "blast" and so forth. I think it would be better if the spells themselves were still unique, but tiered. Or at least, behaved in very different ways.

 

Basic Spell: Stonefist / Fire Burst / Chain Lightning / Winter's Grasp

 

Greater Attack Spell: Tremor / Fireball / Tempest / Ice Burst

 

Field Spell: Unsteady Ground / Wall of Fire / Static Cage / Wall of Ice

 

Elite Spell: Petrify / Firestorm / ? / Blizzard

 

Something like that, I guess.

[wowsuper]

So I don't understand your "this will be generic and OP" premise. 

 

It makes me furious when people try to defend the devs' choices blindly and without even questioning them. Yes, things could be "generic and OP" if they are not designed properly, but game designers undoubtedly CAN satify their design priorities and retain a decent amount of variety in the spell system, if they want. The issue is that they don't, and this should upset consumers and shouldn't just make them think "well, it could have been worse". No sh*t?!

[Bayonet Hipshot]

THIS happened yesterday:

 

 

An icon was changed (for the better, IMO). Literally. That's all that's happened. And it's like a little grenade went off in the forums. And there's this guy screaming: "I used to play a Spirit-Mage, what am I supposed to do now, BW, huh? Huh!?"....  ....*points to Spirit tree*. I even recall some of us being like "the tree w/ lightning, yknow, a change might be in order, the icon & title seem a bit out of place, not quite right for what it is, the spells in it", and...?

 

Inferno, Winter, Spirit, "Entropy/Primal" + the specs. Those are the cards we've been dealt. For quite a long while, now. I thought we were all on the same page (mostly). Or am I missing something, have we been promised other non-spec trees, led to believe there were "hidden trees", left to be revealed? NO. We knew a couple spells might be shuffled here and there, an icon and/or title could change, but we've been mostly, waiting for the specs (and crossing our fingers for this/that spell being in one of them), yes? So. Again. I don't get what the fuss was about. Can we go back to being relatively sane? Please???

 

And just btw I think that little cloud icon is all kinds of adorable. 

 

People are not fond of the idea of railroading all mages to be elementalists. in DA:O and in DA2, you could be a non elemental mage and still be very effective. In Inquistion, this does not seem to be the case.

 

This limits roleplaying options. Part of the major selling point of the mage class in any RPG game is its roleplaying and combat flexibility. You could be a healer or elementalist or conjurer or warlock....

 

Add this to the fact that they have 2 whole tree for elements that are essentially opposites of one another and that there have been plenty that have been pointing out that the elementals could have been all combined under one school leaving space for other magics. 

 

Then there is Bioware's silence on all this. Apart from one measly 2 minute video and some tweets they have done next to nothing in showcasing the combat system for all the classes properly, show that fire and winter are properly diverse, show that mages will not be gimped with Focus & 8 ability lock. 

 

So of course there will be some form of negative reaction. 

[mikeymoonshine]

I am disappointed that there seems to be no entropy tree and that so much of the mage class is about elemental magic but I am also happy that they made the change. Hopefully that tree is also no longer called entropy because it was annoying me that they would just completely ignore their own lore. 

 

Anyway, it's pretty clear that all the trees have had rather allot of changes made since we last saw them other than maybe inferno. 

 

The new icons for Lightning Bold and Mind Blast do not appear in any of the trees they have shown before, as far as I know. 

[Morroian]

Even in DA2 you could make a mage that didn't do any damage outside of autoattack, by choosing to dip into Entropy, Creation, Force Mage and Spirit Healer. Might not have been the most effective strategy for all situations, but it was a choice one could make.
I'm disappointed that BW is taking the choice away.

 

Yep I actually had a Hawke who was built along those lines in an effort to create a sort of spellsword type and he worked. It was good fun.