6397 réponses à ce sujet

[Biotic Sage]

THIS happened yesterday:

 

 

An icon was changed (for the better, IMO). Literally. That's all that's happened. And it's like a little grenade went off in the forums. And there's this guy screaming: "I used to play a Spirit-Mage, what am I supposed to do now, BW, huh? Huh!?"....  ....*points to Spirit tree*. I even recall some of us being like "the tree w/ lightning, yknow, a change might be in order, the icon & title seem a bit out of place, not quite right for what it is, the spells in it", and...?

 

Inferno, Winter, Spirit, "Entropy/Primal" + the specs. Those are the cards we've been dealt. For quite a long while, now. I thought we were all on the same page (mostly). Or am I missing something, have we been promised other non-spec trees, led to believe there were "hidden trees", left to be revealed? NO. We knew a couple spells might be shuffled here and there, an icon and/or title could change, but we've been mostly, waiting for the specs (and crossing our fingers for this/that spell being in one of them), yes? So. Again. I don't get what the fuss was about. Can we go back to being relatively sane? Please???

 

 

Some people like to scream and be ridiculous; others prefer to voice their concerns and/or disappointments in a reasonable way.  I think this thread has been particularly good about the latter.

 

The issue isn't that the icon was changed in that spell tree.  Yes, it fits the spells that are actually in the tree better than the previous icon did.  That's not what I'm upset about and I don't think that's what a lot of other people here are upset about either.  Like you said, "the cards we've been dealt" are 3 Primal school trees.  We were aware of this, but we were also aware that the game was still in development and things were constantly being tweaked.  This is the final stage, and things aren't going to change at this point, and just seeing confirmation that the devs were going in this direction reminded us about our frustration.  

 

If Bioware would release some ability info and go into even half the details with the trees that they have with the romances and explain why their decisions make sense for creating a better combat system, we wouldn't have to fret as much.  But everybody's jimmies are rustled because mages appear to be simplified direct damage dealers for the most part.  If that is the case, then I'm sure you'll be hearing many more complaints well into the future, so I'd strap in if I were you.  I'm sure most will still enjoy the game immensely, but it would be a legitimate complaint for many gamers.

[PillarBiter]

Some people like to scream and be ridiculous; others prefer to voice their concerns and/or disappointments in a reasonable way.  I think this thread has been particularly good about the latter.

 

The issue isn't that the icon was changed in that spell tree.  Yes, it fits the spells that are actually in the tree better than the previous icon did.  That's not what I'm upset about and I don't think that's what a lot of other people here are upset about either.  Like you said, "the cards we've been dealt" are 3 Primal school trees.  We were aware of this, but we were also aware that the game was still in development and things were constantly being tweaked.  This is the final stage, and things aren't going to change at this point, and just seeing confirmation that the devs were going in this direction reminded us about our frustration.  

 

If Bioware would release some ability info and go into even half the details with the trees that they have with the romances and explain why their decisions make sense for creating a better combat system, we wouldn't have to fret as much.  But everybody's jimmies are rustled because mages appear to be simplified direct damage dealers for the most part.  If that is the case, then I'm sure you'll be hearing many more complaints well into the future, so I'd strap in if I were you.  I'm sure most will still enjoy the game immensely, but it would be a legitimate complaint for many gamers.

 

Yeah, It's basically the silence that is killing people's anticipation.

 

I mean, bioware gives out sooooo much information, but they just do it worngly. Instead of fully disclosing one topic and detailing it, they hand out tidbits about everything which leads to nothing but speculation and rage...

[Kage]

Well, I have to disagree. Mages do not appear to be simplified damage dealers in DAI.

Just because almost every spell is elemental, does not mean they are damage dealers only, elemental is just a graphical trait really (in DAI).

 

Wall of Ice, glyph of frost, static cage, just cannot be thought as dps spells. They are mostly CC spells, that might have some damage into them. Just like Horror did in DA2. In fact, Flashfire is now exactly the same as Horror upgraded from DA2. Instead of spirit damage, fire damage, but it is the exact same spell.

 

So basically instead of classifying the spells for their combat-trait, they are doing it for their aspect-trait. Just because you only get spells from Inferno, does not mean you are only a nuker and do not have any CC. In fact, as far as we know, you would have a knockup, a fear, a wall (since AI makes them sorround it), and who knows what else through passives.

 

We ask for creation, but we have a glyph of paralysis in the Winter tree, just colored in frost but has the same effect.

We ask for entropy, but we have a horror spell in the Inferno tree, just colored in red.

The same happens to Haste, in the lightning tree. Or even a blink, which seems is going to end up in the winter tree.

 

So no, mages are not simplified damage dealers.

 

But yes, we have less options for magic in DAI. It seems we will all have to be elemental dps+support mages, since now 3/4 skill trees are defined by aesthetics/element, but serve the same purpose, a mix of dps and support.

 

HAVE FAITH IN SPECIALIZATIONS!

[Wulfram]

A lot depends on how the pre-requisites end up working.  Will we be able to grab the damage skills and skip the "support"?  Or vice-versa?

[EnduinRaylene]

A lot depends on how the pre-requisites end up working. Will we be able to grab the damage skills and skip the "support"? Or vice-versa?

We should, the layout of the trees makes it so you can skip spells easier than you can passives, so shouldn't be hard to only take the spells you want and ignore the rest. In a 5x5 tree if you wanted all the spells but the fewest passives you would only be able to skip one passive out of four. But if you wanted the opposite you would only need to pick up 2 spells out of 6 to get all 4 passives.

[LexXxich]

Why 3/4 spells are damage spells? Because of Focus. It only builds off party damage. Some players could have chosen "wrong" and gimp their party on Focus acquisition. So Bioware went and made the decision for them.

[EnduinRaylene]

Why 3/4 spells are damage spells? Because of Focus. It only builds off party damage. Some players could have chosen "wrong" and gimp their party on Focus acquisition. So Bioware went and made the decision for them.

That doesn't make sense, you can't gimp yourself with Focus acquisition when they are all the last acquired ability in the skill tree. Even if you specifically went after them by level 10 you could only have 2 max. 3 by level 15 and 4 by level 20. You'd still have 8 other abilities to choose from, a full loadout, and you would have to go totally out of your way to be in that position in the first place and do so with every character in your party. Plus that easily remedied by having Maker's Sigh in the game again to let players respec their characters if they find themselves with a build they don't care for.

[andar91]

That doesn't make sense, you can't gimp yourself with Focus acquisition when they are all the last acquired ability in the skill tree. Even if you specifically went after them by level 10 you could only have 2 max. 3 by level 15 and 4 by level 20. You'd still have 8 other abilities to choose from, a full loadout, and you would have to go totally out of your way to be in that position in the first place and do so with every character in your party. Plus that easily remedied by having Maker's Sigh in the game again to let players respec their characters if they find themselves with a build they don't care for.

 

In addition to this, I figure regular attacks probably build up focus just fine. Not all of the elemental spells necessarily deal damage (like Wall of Ice).

 

Frankly, I'm not convinced that Static Cage deals damage.

[Mornmagor]

THIS happened yesterday:

 

 

An icon was changed (for the better, IMO). Literally. That's all that's happened. And it's like a little grenade went off in the forums. And there's this guy screaming: "I used to play a Spirit-Mage, what am I supposed to do now, BW, huh? Huh!?"....  ....*points to Spirit tree*. I even recall some of us being like "the tree w/ lightning, yknow, a change might be in order, the icon & title seem a bit out of place, not quite right for what it is, the spells in it", and...?

 

Inferno, Winter, Spirit, "Entropy/Primal" + the specs. Those are the cards we've been dealt. For quite a long while, now. I thought we were all on the same page (mostly). Or am I missing something, have we been promised other non-spec trees, led to believe there were "hidden trees", left to be revealed? NO. We knew a couple spells might be shuffled here and there, an icon and/or title could change, but we've been mostly, waiting for the specs (and crossing our fingers for this/that spell being in one of them), yes? So. Again. I don't get what the fuss was about. Can we go back to being relatively sane? Please???

 

And just btw I think that little cloud icon is all kinds of adorable. 

 

We were never promised anything obviously, because we never knew what will come in the class specs and trees. Development doesn't work with promises anyway, and we never had any idea in the first place about what the trees will really be like.

 

There is a distinct difference however, in having a choice to be an Evoker(elementalist), and not having that choice. Now, every Mage seems to be railroaded in an element or more, for choosing their abilities.

 

Are we down to magic machine guns finally, to accomodate the more action oriented play style, while my tactical choices will be whether to block a route with a warrior guarding, or putting down an icewall?

 

I hope, that choosing the Knight Enchanter spec, strays me from the basic D&D Wizard Evoker wannabe path, that Mages seem to have in this game.

 

Choice, is not only important when talking to someone, it's most important when you choose what type of powers you will have.

 

These are all concerns, since i'm not 100% sure what's final, but from the math of the abilities so far, it seems pretty legit, that these are our trees.

 

And, by the way, we are all perfectly sane here, thank you very much.

 

What works for you, doesn't work for everyone else. You're fine with the basic evoker stuff, i'm not. And that's why i hope the specs really stray you from that path.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

We were never promised anything obviously, because we never knew what will come in the class specs and trees. Development doesn't work with promises anyway, and we never had any idea in the first place about what the trees will really be like.

 

There is a distinct difference however, in having a choice to be an Evoker(elementalist), and not having that choice. Now, every Mage seems to be railroaded in an element or more, for choosing their abilities.

 

Are we down to magic machine guns finally, to accomodate the more action oriented play style, while my tactical choices will be whether to block a route with a warrior guarding, or putting down an icewall?

 

I hope, that choosing the Knight Enchanter spec, strays me from the basic D&D Wizard Evoker wannabe path, that Mages seem to have in this game.

 

Choice, is not only important when talking to someone, it's most important when you choose what type of powers you will have.

 

These are all concerns, since i'm not 100% sure what's final, but from the math of the abilities so far, it seems pretty legit, that these are our trees.

 

And, by the way, we are all perfectly sane here, thank you very much.

 

What works for you, doesn't work for everyone else. You're fine with the basic evoker stuff, i'm not. And that's why i hope the specs really stray you from that path.

 

This. 

 

I personally like playing as a well rounded wizard. What these 4 trees do is turn you into an elementalist with an occasional support ability. 

 

Bioware is throwing away most of the RPG archetypes / streamlining the RPG archetypes in a fantasy RPG game.

 

They call this more choice and more freedom.

 

Then people have the gall to wonder why there are people being unhappy about it. 

[Hellion Rex]

I'm just gonna wait and see before I start raising hell over this. I'm gonna wait to see what the full trees look like.

[wowsuper]

Well, I have to disagree. Mages do not appear to be simplified damage dealers in DAI.

Just because almost every spell is elemental, does not mean they are damage dealers only, elemental is just a graphical trait really (in DAI).

 

^ That's the huge problem to me. We have less customisation choices in regard to how we build our mages since 3/4 spells are elemental. I'm talking about roleplaying options.

 

Why 3/4 spells are damage spells? Because of Focus. It only builds off party damage. 

 

So? Gameplay mechanics can be tailored to avoid these kind of drawbacks without dampening spell choices. Some reasonable examples: make focus build with stamina and mana usage, make it build over time while in battle, make it build whenever a spell or talent is being used... They can keep the focus mechanics in any case, their talent and spell selection probably have nothing to do with it.

[EnduinRaylene]

DA has always been pretty narrow in what its class roles were, mages especially. DA2 went further with that by refocusing them to even more narrow roles, providing more concrete identity but limiting how creative the player could be with their builds. DAI seems no different and in no small part due to the 8 ability limit and apparent focus on cross class combos.

 

Most people prefer using direct attack/elemental spells over indirect or support spells. It just makes sense to put more time and effort into that when the rest of the spells will largely be ignored. With the 8 ability limit you basically have to narrow and consolidate the ability lists or else a lot of people will choose to just the damage dealing elemental spells over the others. CCCs as well require an added degree of utility to abilities and so it's only natural that they've gone about this by folding many of the old spells into either existing or new elemental spells. It's a kind of having your cake and eating it too approach. You get to use your damage dealing fireball but now it also inflict a status effect you can exploit further with a CCC. 

 

I'm down with it because I like that kind of gameplay and party utilization, but I understand a lot of other people enjoy making odd and different character builds which this doesn't allow for as much from what we know. I would like to see further details on the Specializations, I hope that they provide enough unique abilities, active and passive, to really shape your character in a new way. The fact that they want them to come up in the story a bit gives me hope that they will be more significant in terms of gameplay.

[andar91]

DA has always been pretty narrow in what its class roles were, mages especially. DA2 went further with that by refocusing them to even more narrow roles, providing more concrete identity but limiting how creative the player could be with their builds. DAI seems no different and in no small part due to the 8 ability limit and apparent focus on cross class combos.

 

Most people prefer using direct attack/elemental spells over indirect or support spells. It just makes sense to put more time and effort into that when the rest of the spells will largely be ignored. With the 8 ability limit you basically have to narrow and consolidate the ability lists or else a lot of people will choose to just the damage dealing elemental spells over the others. CCCs as well require an added degree of utility to abilities and so it's only natural that they've gone about this by folding many of the old spells into either existing or new elemental spells. It's a kind of having your cake and eating it too approach. You get to use your damage dealing fireball but now it also inflict a status effect you can exploit further with a CCC. 

 

I'm down with it because I like that kind of gameplay and party utilization, but I understand a lot of other people enjoy making odd and different character builds which this doesn't allow for as much from what we know. I would like to see further details on the Specializations, I hope that they provide enough unique abilities, active and passive, to really shape your character in a new way. The fact that they want them to come up in the story a bit gives me hope that they will be more significant in terms of gameplay.

 

I'm hopoing that we'll be able to mix and match different elemental abilities in different ways. Like...I dunno...take AoE spells with fire and Static Cage so you can trap enemies in a small space and then let loose with Fire Burst (or whatever it's called) and Wall of Fire and Fire Glyph and such.

 

Alternatively, even elemental spells have support elements to them. Frost Glyph is a defensive-ish ability, and Wall of Ice has huge implications for being able to control the field itself and cut enemies off. Plus, we still have Spirit spells like Dispel that will be useful when fighting mages and (probably) templars. I'm pretty sure Blizzard sort of debuffs a crowd by slowing them too (they get "Chilled").

 

Basically, I would much prefer still having Entropy and Creation in the mix, but I"m glad that the elemental spells are at least interesting. It doesn't seem like there are dozens of iterations of spells that basically just deal damage (which was sort of what Origins felt like with the Primal spells).

[mikeymoonshine]

 

And, by the way, we are all perfectly sane here, thank you very much.

 

What works for you, doesn't work for everyone else. You're fine with the basic evoker stuff, i'm not. And that's why i hope the specs really stray you from that path.

 

I'm not sure if that comment was about being happy about the situation or telling others that they should be. I think it was more that it has been pretty obvious for a while now that this was what we were getting. 

 

We had already been shown that tree and the kinds of spells that were in it, it obviously wasn't going to be changed into an entirely different tree and there has been little to suggest that there will be any other trees (other than possibly a tree of fade based abilities). 

 

I still hope for allot of things but I do not expect anything and that leads me to generally not freak out when I get disappointed by something. This change really shouldn't be that shocking. 

[Itkovian]

I'm just gonna wait and see before I start raising hell over this. I'm gonna wait to see what the full trees look like.

 

A very good approach others should emulate. Nobody really knows how the trees pan out, or what other trees are available. Even within the specific trees,there may be more variety than what is commonly thought.

 

Point is, nobody knows except the game devs, and all we have to go by is a handful of abilities.

[Icy Magebane]

Yeah... I just can't get excited about the magic system in DA:I, so I'll probably let Dorian, Vivienne, and Solas handle that.  I might try Knight Enchanter some day, but this business about elemental trees and Focus-based healing killed my enthusiasm for magic long ago.

[LexXxich]

After all the feedback, after all the backlash of DA2, BW still continues to do the very same thing. Limiting people. Limiting playstyles. Further limiting classes into pre-defined roles.
I don't understand this kind of logic. How can anyone look at DA2 magic spells and think: "This needs to be streamlined."? Or think: "Warrior class has too many ability trees to choose from."?

It's telling that arguments in support of these decisions are either: "But you don't know, it'll totally work out in final game!" appealing to faith in Bioware, or: "But it could be much worse!" appealing to battered wife mentality.
Because there's nothing positive about these changes. It's just a continuation of BW continuously hacking and slashing across 3 games.

I've let exploration videos hype me up. I got hope that Bioware learned from their mistakes, after all they expanded ruleset in ME3 after the horribly gutted ME2, regardless of how plot turned out. And I was wrong. The team might be different but their pride is all the same.

[Kage]

 

^ That's the huge problem to me. We have less customisation choices in regard to how we build our mages since 3/4 spells are elemental. I'm talking about roleplaying options.

 

 

Yes, you wont be able to roleplay a entropy mage. But you will be able to roleplay a fire mage.

I would much rather be able to roleplay a fire mage than a entropy mage, I prefer it.

 

I hated in DAO you only had 3 spells for fire, and 1 of them was useless so you ended up with fireball and inferno all the time. And in DA2, you just had fireball and firestorm, and fireball was kind of bad lategame. So it was impossible to play as a firemage.

 

Now I will finally be able to call myself a FIRE MAGE, with damage and support spells, and they all look awesome!!

 

So yeah, I feel bad for you, but feel good for me. ^^

(And there are a lot of wannabe lightning mages from what I have read in other threads, though they only get 3 spells )

(I am pretty sure ICEQUIN will be happy with roleplaying an Ice Queen Mage lol)

[Kage]

After all the feedback, after all the backlash of DA2, BW still continues to do the very same thing. Limiting people. Limiting playstyles. Further limiting classes into pre-defined roles.
I don't understand this kind of logic. How can anyone look at DA2 magic spells and think: "This needs to be streamlined."? Or think: "Warrior class has too many ability trees to choose from."?

It's telling that arguments in support of these decisions are either: "But you don't know, it'll totally work out in final game!" appealing to faith in Bioware, or: "But it could be much worse!" appealing to battered wife mentality.
Because there's nothing positive about these changes. It's just a continuation of BW continuously hacking and slashing across 3 games.

I've let exploration videos hype me up. I got hope that Bioware learned from their mistakes, after all they expanded ruleset in ME3 after the horribly gutted ME2, regardless of how plot turned out. And I was wrong. The team might be different but their pride is all the same.

 

You are exagerating...

They really learned from DA2, and the skills and differentiation of classes was one of the best feedbacks that game had. You dont like it, ok, but that is an opinion.

 

Just because the game is going in a direction you dont like, does not mean the rest of us dont like it either.

 

The only thing I do not like from DAI is the limitation of 8 abilities. That's it. The rest, I find much better from both DAO and DA2 so far.

[Morroian]

You are exagerating...

They really learned from DA2, and the skills and differentiation of classes was one of the best feedbacks that game had. You dont like it, ok, but that is an opinion.

 

Just because the game is going in a direction you dont like, does not mean the rest of us dont like it either.

 

I don't quite understand, there was feedback from DA2 about skills and class differentiation that they learned from yet in DAI they appear to be limiting it further?

[mikeymoonshine]

I'm not happy about the three elemental trees/ no entropy or creation tree but I have to agree that DA2 did it better when it came to skills. The rest of the DA2 combat was pretty terrible but Origins came with allot of useless skills and allot of wading through crap to get to the good ones. The only tree that did this in DA2 was the Arcane tree.

 

Bioware has listened to feedback in a number of other areas and most of the complaints about combat were not about the skill trees so I don't think you can say they ignored fans here.

[LaughingWolf]

All I understand from this, is that I get less customization for my mage.

[Mornmagor]

This isn't about being surprised or expecting it.

 

It's about liking the direction or not.

 

In the end, we are all going to adapt to the new system, we don't have much of a choice, obviously.