19658 réponses à ce sujet

[MCG]

Apparently Tevinter does have some form of homophobia, but it's not like it can be touched upon in any significant detail due to sensitive issues of course.

[syllogi]

One thing I missed in all DA titles is that for a game set in a fantasy medieval world they are surprisingly ok with homosexual romances. In Mass Effect society was long past that but in Dragon Age. 

 

Not saying they should be stoned or something but there should be an impact. We had slavery, servitude, genocide, torture, demon worship, crusades, witch hunts, etc. but no homophobia at all. 

 

Gamlen represents all of the real world homophobia you could ever desire.

 

Personally, though, I would rather see a more diverse portrayal of homosexuality, that includes a full array of all kinds of characters, including (GASP) butch lesbians and effeminate gay men, and information about actual LGBT communities, if that exists at all in any country in Thedas, BEFORE we get into the homophobia.  Making straight people homophobic is not the only way to portray homosexuality realistically, and if it's done at all, I wouldn't want it to be the only way homosexuality is dealt with in the game other than the fact that we have same sex love interests.  In a way it's a lot like having sexual harassment of female characters be the only difference between male and female player characters...if that's the only way to telegraph that a character is NOT male (or in this case straight), then I'd question why that is.

[Xilizhra]

Gamlen represents all of the real world homophobia you could ever desire.

 

Personally, though, I would rather see a more diverse portrayal of homosexuality, that includes a full array of all kinds of characters, including (GASP) butch lesbians and effeminate gay men, and information about actual LGBT communities, if that exists at all in any country in Thedas, BEFORE we get into the homophobia.  Making straight people homophobic is not the only way to portray homosexuality realistically, and if it's done at all, I wouldn't want it to be the only way homosexuality is dealt with in the game other than the fact that we have same sex love interests.  In a way it's a lot like having sexual harassment of female characters be the only difference between male and female player characters...if that's the only way to telegraph that a character is NOT male (or in this case straight), then I'd question why that is.

While this isn't a bad idea, I would wonder exactly what would make "butch" or "effeminate" meaningful when everyone's already an adventuring badass without going into rather painful stereotypes.

[Sir Froggie]

I would argue that the lack of homophobia within Thedas makes more sense because it's a fantasy world. If the lady that you saw in the market yesterday can create fire from nothing, is the fact that she kisses other women going to be the part that you focus on? If the guy down the street is an eight foot tall horned person, whose religion is directly opposed to your own, do you care that he enjoys the company of other men? By the same token; if the family next door are all around four feet tall, have massive gorilla arms, and come from an underground kingdom; are they more "normal" because they are a married heterosexual couple?

[Battlebloodmage]

Gamlen represents all of the real world homophobia you could ever desire.

 

Personally, though, I would rather see a more diverse portrayal of homosexuality, that includes a full array of all kinds of characters, including (GASP) butch lesbians and effeminate gay men, and information about actual LGBT communities, if that exists at all in any country in Thedas, BEFORE we get into the homophobia.  Making straight people homophobic is not the only way to portray homosexuality realistically, and if it's done at all, I wouldn't want it to be the only way homosexuality is dealt with in the game other than the fact that we have same sex love interests.  In a way it's a lot like having sexual harassment of female characters be the only difference between male and female player characters...if that's the only way to telegraph that a character is NOT male (or in this case straight), then I'd question why that is.

I would rather for them to add characters for the sake of the storyline rather than for the sake of diversity. Even if the character happens to be a feminine guy, he could still be straight, that's rather ground breaking and non-stereotypical, yes? If characters like Maevaris, a transgender female, happens to be in the game, it's because she happens to cross path with the protagonist, it shouldn't be because she was forced in for diversity's sake. 

[syllogi]

While this isn't a bad idea, I would wonder exactly what would make "butch" or "effeminate" meaningful when everyone's already an adventuring badass without going into rather painful stereotypes.

 

I'm talking in general, not necessarily only our companions.  But I don't think a writer HAS to go into "painful" stereotypes in order to make a character that is relatable to real gay people, which is what I'd really like to see when I say butch or effeminate.  

 

I think a good example of a fictional homosexual character whose characterization definitely draws on real gay men is Felix Dawkins on Orphan Black.  I don't think it's at all harmful or painful that Felix is artistic, has been known to wear leather chaps or kimonos on occasion, and has had lovers on the show...on the contrary, I think it's great that he can be shown this way AND be depicted as a loyal, smart and dedicated brother to Sarah, as well as to the other clones.  They definitely could have made him into a grizzled, tough, manly man who just happens to be gay, but they didn't, and it's kind of refreshing.

[Andraste_Reborn]

One thing I missed in all DA titles is that for a game set in a fantasy medieval world they are surprisingly ok with homosexual romances. In Mass Effect society was long past that but in Dragon Age. 

 

Thedas is really nothing like Medieval Europe beyond containing kings and swords and castles. And I like it that way. I wouldn't really want to play a CRPG where my female character was treated the way she probably would have been in your average Medieval society.

 

(Also, Europe in the Middle Ages was not a monolith when it comes to attitudes towards homosexuality, or anything else. We're talking about dozens of countries across hundreds of years. The way people thought about sex and particular sexual acts varied, and was very different from how we tend to think about those things today.)

[Xilizhra]

I'm talking in general, not necessarily only our companions.  But I don't think a writer HAS to go into "painful" stereotypes in order to make a character that is relatable to real gay people, which is what I'd really like to see when I say butch or effeminate.  

 

I think a good example of a fictional homosexual character whose characterization definitely draws on real gay men is Felix Dawkins on Orphan Black.  I don't think it's at all harmful or painful that Felix is artistic, has been known to wear leather chaps or kimonos on occasion, and has had lovers on the show...on the contrary, I think it's great that he can be shown this way AND be depicted as a loyal, smart and dedicated brother to Sarah, as well as to the other clones.  They definitely could have made him into a grizzled, tough, manly man who just happens to be gay, but they didn't, and it's kind of refreshing.

Hmmm. I see what you mean; I personally have known more femme lesbians than butch ones, but clearly both exist. Though what would you say about, say, Anders?

 

Also, defying many gender norms is hardly restricted to homosexual/bisexual characters, as shown by Ashley and Aveline.

[mrjack]

As a gay woman who has never modded any romance option to be bisexual despite temptation, I have absolutely no respect for anyone who tries this with Sera. There will be options for you regardless.

 

I completely understand why you might find it distasteful to see or why writers and artists on the project might be worried about their vision being warped by players. The fact is though, that no matter how good the mod, no-one could ever turn Sera or Dorian bi. The characters exist in game and in cannon exactly as they are meant to be. Sera will always be a lesbian no matter what. To me, it's no different than fan art or slash fiction. Some of that can get pretty extreme and it's not for everyone so it's good that it's completely avoidable... just like mods are.

On the whole though, for every mod I see which I personally see as offensive (such as nude mods or big boob mods) I find 10 amazing mods such as high resolution textures, crazy new armours, hairstyles, weapons and in the case of games like Skyrim, completely new dungeons, quests and characters. My point is, if people love your game, there will be people who want to make it the "best" it can be for them. As many have pointed out, you can't please everyone with the standard release. And while you may have no respect for people who take the time to get creative with a game and share their hard work with the rest of the community, I certainly do. It's not like you have to even take the good with the bad. Just take the good (for you) and ignore the rest... or ignore it all. Please don't begrudge other people their happiness though (such as my getting to romance Kaiden in ME1 - even though he called me ma'am) when it literally has zero impact on your game or the fact that Bioware has finally included a 100% gay companion character and the positive impact this has on our community.

[Xilizhra]

I completely understand why you might find it distasteful to see or why writers and artists on the project might be worried about their vision being warped by players. The fact is though, that no matter how good the mod, no-one could ever turn Sera or Dorian bi. The characters exist in game and in cannon exactly as they are meant to be. Sera will always be a lesbian no matter what. To me, it's no different than fan art or slash fiction. Some of that can get pretty extreme and it's not for everyone so it's good that it's completely avoidable... just like mods are.

On the whole though, for every mod I see which I personally see as offensive (such as nude mods or big boob mods) I find 10 amazing mods such as high resolution textures, crazy new armours, hairstyles, weapons and in the case of games like Skyrim, completely new dungeons, quests and characters. My point is, if people love your game, there will be people who want to make it the "best" it can be for them. As many have pointed out, you can't please everyone with the standard release. And while you may have no respect for people who take the time to get creative with a game and share their hard work with the rest of the community, I certainly do. It's not like you have to even take the good with the bad. Just take the good (for you) and ignore the rest... or ignore it all. Please don't begrudge other people their happiness though (such as my getting to romance Kaiden in ME1 - even though he called me ma'am) when it literally has zero impact on your game.

I can understand, if not necessarily agree with, people modding certain romance options if they have literally no other option, as was the case in ME1, but when there'll be no shortage of choice in DAI, I cannot get behind the notion of warping the plot around you in that manner. Though this might affect me emotionally more because of the existence of that longstanding notion that lesbians can be "cured" via hetero romance.

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

It's the game we want to make.

I hear ya- I was being facetious- people act like the Romance system is the only aspect of the game, and it's silly to blow it out of proportion like that.

[tmp7704]

You are of the opinion that the DA II system will not be missed despite numerous people in this thread stating they'll miss it. How does that even work?

I think it works in the same manner the comment he/she replied to, how the system is going to be missed, worked -- some people will miss it. Some (other) people will not miss it. Neither claim bothered to mention that caveat, and so neither is more accurate or universal than the other.

[Schreckstoff]

Thedas is really nothing like Medieval Europe beyond containing kings and swords and castles. And I like it that way. I wouldn't really want to play a CRPG where my female character was treated the way she probably would have been in your average Medieval society.

 

(Also, Europe in the Middle Ages was not a monolith when it comes to attitudes towards homosexuality, or anything else. We're talking about dozens of countries across hundreds of years. The way people thought about sex and particular sexual acts varied, and was very different from how we tend to think about those things today.)

Considering women of importance existed during medieval times and the MC in Dragon Age being an exceptional person a female character would be treated with respect either way. Just consider them a Jeanne D'Arc.

It just feels weird that the society in Dragon Age is to the setting appropriately backwards in pretty much every aspect but homophobia.

[Xilizhra]

Considering women of importance existed during medieval times and the MC in Dragon Age being an exceptional person a female character would be treated with respect either way. Just consider them a Jeanne D'Arc.

It just feels weird that the society in Dragon Age is to the setting appropriately backwards in pretty much every aspect but homophobia.

Actually, Thedas is quite a bit better about gender equality too.

[syllogi]

Hmmm. I see what you mean; I personally have known more femme lesbians than butch ones, but clearly both exist. Though what would you say about, say, Anders?

 

Also, defying many gender norms is hardly restricted to homosexual/bisexual characters, as shown by Ashley and Aveline.

 

I really would have liked to see Awakening!Anders portrayed as openly bisexual back then, I realize that it probably wasn't even a thought when DA:A was being made, but it would have been nice to see another openly bisexual character who wasn't a rogue, and even the fact that he wasn't romanceable would have been cool, because his sexuality would have just been another facet of his character instead of being seen as a convenient feature in DA2.

 

As for defying gender norms, I personally feel like it's ONLY okay for female characters to be "masculine" or tough, generally, in modern media, if they're as straight as possible (like Ashley and Aveline, and I have a feeling that many people assume Cassandra will be the same way when they say she HAS to be heterosexual).  Lesbians on television often are very, very feminine, and fall in love or into bed with men as much as possible (See: Irene Adler in BBC Sherlock, Margot Verner in Hannibal).  I don't think that's a coincidence.  Gay men are allowed to be "stereotypically" gay IF they're comic relief (see: Jack from Will and Grace, Mitchell and Cameron on Modern Family), but if the role is serious, a lot of times if a male character is homosexual, he's far more likely to be less coded as stereotypically gay (Cyrus on Scandal is probably a good example of this).

 

Basically, I would really just like to see some *relatable* gay and lesbian characters, instead of characters who are "just like everybody else."  There's nothing wrong with the real people who are gay AND who align with popular stereotypes about what gay people are.

[Jewlie Ghoulie]

On the topic of people perhaps being peeved that others might mod Sera to be a male romance too.... I wouldn't mind. If that makes them happy, sure. I don't think it's offensive because as someone stated, there's no doubt people who will write fan fiction or have fan art with her in love with a man. Just like there have been of Morrigan with a woman, I'm sure.

Only one mod ever really offended me about a character is making Isabela light skinned. But, I won't get into that.

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

Joan of Arc was burned at the stake.  This doesn't really seem like the best example of the Middle Age's esteem for women to me.  Women are afforded respect in DA largely because their chief religious figure (analogous to Jesus for us) was female.  On top of that she was a military leader and not someone applauded for her role in some traditional female role such as Mary as the mother of Christ. 

Joan of Arc was burned as a heretic, though, not for being a woman directly.

[Schreckstoff]

Joan of Arc was burned at the stake.  This doesn't really seem like the best example of the Middle Age's esteem for women to me.  Women are afforded respect in DA largely because their chief religious figure (analogous to Jesus for us) was female.  On top of that she was a military leader and not someone applauded for her role in some traditional female role such as Mary as the mother of Christ. 

At the end after the conflict ended she was burned at the stake, later on she was even sanctified by the church. The way she was received during a state of emergency (DA pretty much always is in one) was quite similar.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Considering women of importance existed during medieval times and the MC in Dragon Age being an exceptional person a female character would be treated with respect either way. Just consider them a Jeanne D'Arc.

It just feels weird that the society in Dragon Age is to the setting appropriately backwards in pretty much every aspect but homophobia.

 

Women of importance during Medieval times still had to put up with truly epic quantities of sexist bull<pancake>. Even if they didn't, I wouldn't want to play the one woman the setting treated respectfully because she's somehow a worthy exception to the rule, while all the other women in the setting got degraded and disrespected. That sounds awful.

 

The society in Dragon Age really isn't 'appropriately backwards' in other respects. There are all kinds of ways in which its more like our era than the actual Middle Ages. People are generally clean. They seem to have a much higher standard of medical care and a greater understanding of how biology works than people did in Medieval Europe. There's no evidence of massive infant and childhood mortality. Literacy seems widespread. They have potatoes. (Yes, I consider that an important advancement for Europe .) And that's just off the top of my head, there are dozens of other things.

 

All of this is about what I'd expect of a setting where magic exists, and none of it is much like life in the 10th century.

[Hellion Rex]

On the topic of people perhaps being peeved that others might mod Sera to be a male romance too.... I wouldn't mind. If that makes them happy, sure. I don't think it's offensive because as someone stated, there's no doubt people who will right fan fiction or have fan art with her in love with a man. Just like there have been of Morrigan with a woman, I'm sure.

I agree. Let them mod the game as they wish. They have a right to play the game as they desire. Doesn't mean I have to agree with their decision, but it's not my game.

[Gwydden]

All of this is about what I'd expect of a setting where magic exists, and none of it is much like like in the 10th century.

You forgot ideas about human rights and social justice that were virtually nonexistent until a few centuries ago 

[jncicesp]

 

As for defying gender norms, I personally feel like it's ONLY okay for female characters to be "masculine" or tough, generally, in modern media, if they're as straight as possible (like Ashley and Aveline, and I have a feeling that many people assume Cassandra will be the same way when they say she HAS to be heterosexual).  Lesbians on television often are very, very feminine, and fall in love or into bed with men as much as possible (See: Irene Adler in BBC Sherlock, Margot Verner in Hannibal).  I don't think that's a coincidence.  Gay men are allowed to be "stereotypically" gay IF they're comic relief (see: Jack from Will and Grace, Mitchell and Cameron on Modern Family), but if the role is serious, a lot of times if a male character is homosexual, he's far more likely to be less coded as stereotypically gay (Cyrus on Scandal is probably a good example of this).

 

 

I've thought about this a LOT!.

[Brian ofthe Dialogue Wheel]

I really would have liked to see Awakening!Anders portrayed as openly bisexual back then, I realize that it probably wasn't even a thought when DA:A was being made, but it would have been nice to see another openly bisexual character who wasn't a rogue, and even the fact that he wasn't romanceable would have been cool, because his sexuality would have just been another facet of his character instead of being seen as a convenient feature in DA2.

 

As for defying gender norms, I personally feel like it's ONLY okay for female characters to be "masculine" or tough, generally, in modern media, if they're as straight as possible (like Ashley and Aveline, and I have a feeling that many people assume Cassandra will be the same way when they say she HAS to be heterosexual).  Lesbians on television often are very, very feminine, and fall in love or into bed with men as much as possible (See: Irene Adler in BBC Sherlock, Margot Verner in Hannibal).  I don't think that's a coincidence.  Gay men are allowed to be "stereotypically" gay IF they're comic relief (see: Jack from Will and Grace, Mitchell and Cameron on Modern Family), but if the role is serious, a lot of times if a male character is homosexual, he's far more likely to be less coded as stereotypically gay (Cyrus on Scandal is probably a good example of this).

 

Basically, I would really just like to see some *relatable* gay and lesbian characters, instead of characters who are "just like everybody else."  There's nothing wrong with the real people who are gay AND who align with popular stereotypes about what gay people are.

Let's be honest, though-EVERYONE on Modern Family is comic relief. Really, Cam and Mitchell have the MOST serious plotlines.

That being said, I'm a bisexual nerd in Alabama who plays DnD and the Dragon Age table top game and know nothing about film, fashion, or music, so I feel you on wanting diverse representation.