19658 réponses à ce sujet

[Clockwork_Wings]

To be fair though, I'd argue that even white male protagonists tend to fit into only a handful of basic archetypes, the most common ones being "pretty boy/boy scout" Captain America type or "badass antihero" type.  All of these are almost invariably physically strong, attractive to and able to gain the attention of women, leaders who never serve in any capacity except as tip of the spear, and a bunch of other masculine stereotypes.  The fact that there are 1000 of them for every 1 gay character doesn't necessarily mean there is a whole lot more variety.  In general, I think it's fair to say that media sucks in how it portrays gender and sexuality. 

I caught on pretty quick to Alistair being a white knight/dragonslayer archetype.  Thought that was pretty nifty. 

 

In the notion that Dragon Age is a deconstruction of fantasy archetypes, I like that most of my heroes are rogues.

[Statare]

As I understand most media feel that the heterosexual, white, 18-35 male demographic are as middle-of-the-road as one can get.  Everything they do, everyone else does.  Everything they're interested in, so is everyone else.  Base zero, lowest common denominator.  Some groups confuse "lowest common denominator" with "only group that matters."

 

I dunno if I would call white, heterosexual men the lowest common denominator. I am pretty sure that there is 0 white, heterosexual men inside me (at least right now) and I am sure even less so for a PoC lesbian woman.

[syllogi]

I'm a huge Orphan Black fan and I love Felix the way he is, but his character is hardly groundbreaking. Having a "grizzled, tough, manly man" who just happens to be gay but also unapologetically acknowledges his sexuality and desires is something I'd like to see more of in all media, especially video games. I am gay but I am not weak, flighty or here for comic relief and I am no-one's sidekick.

 

Yeah, I definitely acknowledge that Felix also fits the gay male character trope of being comic relief and a sidekick, but I don't think that's all he is on the show, and he's had some growth (and has stood up to Sarah), so it's different enough to be interesting, at least to me.  

 

I understand not wanting *only* sassy, funny gay best buddies on tv and games, that's where diversity comes in.  I'm worried that, especially in video games, more realistic depictions of LGBT people are considered controversial or negative out of hand, without considering what that means, or how straight creators are actually viewing these characters when they decide that "normal" equals "acting what we believe straight is except for sex scenes and/or flirting."

[Ajna]

Teegahn! I always flirt with him in Redcliffe...it's so inappropriate but I just can't help myself...

[Clockwork_Wings]

I dunno if I would call white, heterosexual men the lowest common denominator. I am pretty sure that there is 0 white, heterosexual men inside me (at least right now) and I am sure even less so for a PoC lesbian woman.

That's how Hollywood sees it,  Jimquisition has some interesting videos on the subject when applied to games, Moviebob and Nostalgia Chick when applied to movies. 

 

It's an outdated way of thinking and not something I fully understand.  Supposedly, the SyFy channel canceled Dresden because too many women were watching it.  If so, why not quit running Schick Quatro ads and start running Venus instead?

[Gwydden]

That's how Hollywood sees it,  Jimquisition has some interesting videos on the subject when applied to games, Moviebob and Nostalgia Chick when applied to movies. 

 

It's an outdated way of thinking and not something I fully understand.  Supposedly, the SyFy channel canceled Dresden because too many women were watching it.  If so, why not quit running Schick Quatro ads and start running Venus instead?

Are you saying they were willing to lose money because of random sexism?

[mrjack]

There are just so few gay/queer characters in general in all media. While there are countless straight characters (especially straight white men) for some people to project images of themselves unto, gay/queer players are lucky if there is even a single gay/queer character in a cultural product that even reminds them of someone they've met.

Agreed. This is why I love Bioware. I enjoy the Uncharted series but why do I always have to get the girl at the end of the story? Why can't I get the guy? Even if romance isn't heavily featured in a game that is more about the action, there is almost universally some form of love interest included. Where are the gay/bi heroes, the black/asian/native American heroes? Where are the FEMALE heroes? It's baffling to me and so frustrating. So thank you Bioware and I guess Lara Croft in her latest incarnation (no boulder boobs and short shorts) but the rest of the developers can bite me.

[Xilizhra]

I understand not wanting *only* sassy, funny gay best buddies on tv and games, that's where diversity comes in.  I'm worried that, especially in video games, more realistic depictions of LGBT people are considered controversial or negative out of hand, without considering what that means, or how straight creators are actually viewing these characters when they decide that "normal" equals "acting what we believe straight is except for sex scenes and/or flirting."

Wait, are gay people who deliberately act counter to standard gender roles, as opposed to filling them or filling some while not filling others, less realistic somehow?

[Statare]

That's how Hollywood sees it,  Jimquisition has some interesting videos on the subject when applied to games, Moviebob and Nostalgia Chick when applied to movies. 

 

It's an outdated way of thinking and not something I fully understand.  Supposedly, the SyFy channel canceled Dresden because too many women were watching it.  If so, why not quit running Schick Quatro ads and start running Venus instead?

 

Where I live there are pretty much no white people as United Statesians would think of them, besides tourists. Yet, there are advertisements aimed at rich Anglos on pretty much every street corner. So, to me, advertisements have never really been aimed at me or anyone I know. There are a few I can think of. So I tend to see cultural products not necessarily as way to relate to people, but influence how people imagine beauty, gender, influence, and legitimacy.

[Schreckstoff]

True enough.  I still think Joan is a poor comparison to Andraste.  I think a better question is "how would the world be different if Mohammed or Jesus or Moses had been women?"

I actually compared the female Warden to Joan.

 

What unavailable character(s) do you wish you could have romanced in previous games?

Bethany for the wincest lol J/K, Flemeth for the gilf still kidding, in all honesty though Sloth for the tenta... (what's the age restriction on this forum again?)

 

Aveline first and foremost I rather liked her and hoped for the friendship evolving into something more kinda thing, damn Donnic.

[Gwydden]

Wait, are gay people who deliberately act counter to standard gender roles, as opposed to filling them or filling some while not filling others, less realistic somehow?

My question would be the opposite. How would that be more realistic?

[mrjack]

In an attempt to drag us back on topic: what unavailable character(s) do you wish you could have romanced in previous games?

Sebastian for a male Hawke and generally a more developed romance with him for everyone. Aveline for the people who wanted it (not me but she was lovely). I think a Sten romance could have been done well although he wasn't my cup of tea. Definitely Morrigan for the ladies. To me it would have suited her character. And finally Alistair for my male warden. He already called me "my love" when I switched to his character.

[Clockwork_Wings]

Are you saying they were willing to lose money because of random sexism?

Kinda, yeah.  Not being there, not being in the room when they make those decisions, and they may not see it as a surefire way to lose money, but as I understand it, that's what happens.  Linkara mentions a case in one of his recent videos where they sent out survey takers and software, and if one was not a stereotypical comic book reader, ie, a young, white male, the survey takers ignored you and the software wouldn't work. 

 

Back on track,

 

Varric is the only romance that interests me, really, because he's Varric and we know he's awesome.  Iron Bull is a close second because he's a qunari and we haven't had that before (as a LI).  I don't think, however, I would have given much thought to the DA2 LIs, except Anders because we knew him already, though.  Excited to find out which ones turn out to be my favorite.

[Clockwork_Wings]

Where I live there are pretty much no white people as United Statesians would think of them, besides tourists. Yet, there are advertisements aimed at rich Anglos on pretty much every street corner. So, to me, advertisements have never really been aimed at me or anyone I know. There are a few I can think of. So I tend to see cultural products not necessarily as way to relate to people, but influence how people imagine beauty, gender, influence, and legitimacy.

That's a psych study I saw recently.  Most people we see on TV are classically attractive, white people, so we assume that's what beauty looks like.

 

I went into Winter Soldier expecting Scarlet to be there for eyecandy, and every single thing she does would have been exactly the same if she were a man.  Even the "kiss me to distract them" thing, if anything, would have been more effective if she were a man.  Very impressed.

[Gwydden]

That's a psych study I saw recently.  Most people we see on TV are classically attractive, white people, so we assume that's what beauty looks like.

 

I went into Winter Soldier expecting Scarlet to be there for eyecandy, and every single thing she does would have been exactly the same if she were a man.  Even the "kiss me to distract them" thing, if anything, would have been more effective if she were a man.  Very impressed.

I'm not sure media is as powerful as people think, as far as its effect on human psychology goes. I doubt anything can truly change what a person considers attractive or not., or what anyone thinks "beauty looks like".

 

And I cringe every time I read the bolded expression. Sorry, can't help it 

[Fialka]

In real life, people's personalities aren't defined by their sexual orientation.  Just as a straight man wouldn't be defined by his (potentially exclusive) preference for blonde women, or Asian women, or women shorter than himself, I don't see why a gay male character has to somehow have , or not have, a specific type of personality because he's gay.  Yes, there are stereotypes regarding gay culture (be it pop culture, or things associated with the push toward equality) in Western society, but those things don't exist in Thedas.  

 

Hmm... I hope I can say all this right, and have it make sense, without offending anyone as that is not my intention.  In Thedas there are no gay bars and clubs (far as I know), no movements to legalize gay marriage, no huge cultural or political hang-ups against gay relationships.  So those things we associate with being gay in our culture (not to say all gay people are interested in/involved in these things) wouldn't contribute to a gay person's sense of self in the Dragon Age world. Does that make sense?

[Statare]

I'm not sure media is as powerful as people think, as far as its effect on human psychology goes. I doubt anything can truly change what a person considers attractive or not., or what anyone thinks "beauty looks like".

 

And I cringe every time I read the bolded expression. Sorry, can't help it 

 

 

Unfortunately it does. It is not uncommon for girls where I live to try really hard to look white. I was told from a young age to avoid the sun, because dark was ugly.

[Clockwork_Wings]

I'm not sure media is as powerful as people think, as far as its effect on human psychology goes. I doubt anything can truly change what a person considers attractive or not., or what anyone thinks "beauty looks like".

 

And I cringe every time I read the bolded expression. Sorry, can't help it 

As do I.

 

There's a number of biological factors in what is found to be attractive, many boiling down to visual indicators of wealth.  Two hundred years ago, a plus-sized figure would have been ideal, showing an abundance of access to good, expensive food.  Pale skin showed that one could afford to be inside all day, paying someone else to work their fields.  These days, a think figure shows that one can afford a nutritionist telling them what to eat, or to visit the gym, or access to less fatty, more expensive food.  A tan shows that one has time to spend outside at the beach rather than inside, in an office cubicle. 

[Clockwork_Wings]

That's assuming that attraction is 100% dictated by biology and not at all by environment, which I think you'd have a very hard time proving. "Involuntary" and "biological" aren't necessarily the same things. 

This is also true.  If that were the case, Arianni might not have been attracted to Vincento.  While her genes are passed on, her species breeds itself to extinction that way. 

 

...

 

 

That's got to be one of the most oxymoronical things I've ever said.

 

 

You know the stereotype of accents being attractive?  Theoretically it's because it indicates the person in question less likely to be a genetic relation.  I'd be interested, however, to hear a theory on why some accents are considered more attractive than others.

[Fialka]

My point being (sorry for the double post, just remembered what I was trying to get at) was that I don't see why a gay character would be written differently than a straight character. 

 

Steve from Mass Effect is a good example, I think.  Yes, our interaction with his character is defined largely by his relationship with his late husband.  But the fact that it was a husband, not a wife, doesn't change who he is.  He's still a man, grieving over his love, with interests beyond love/sex/gender issues.  But there's just enough there - the banters between him and Vega, for example, to make his being gay not feel like an afterthought.  I imagine Sera's character will be approached in a similar fashion.

[syllogi]

Wait, are gay people who deliberately act counter to standard gender roles, as opposed to filling them or filling some while not filling others, less realistic somehow?

 

I'm not really sure what you're asking, "standard gender roles" is usually coded as "straight", so since I keep saying that diversity is good, and realistic portrayals of LGBT characters would be good, I don't see where your issue comes in with what I'm saying.  Some gay people act what society deems as "gay" more than others, and neither is bad, but media depictions of gay people tend to go to extremes of making them tropes (Sassy Gay Friend) or else try to paint them as "not that gay" (like how feminine lesbians apparently have to sleep with men on tv and in movies).  I'd like to see a happy medium.  I don't want to keep repeating myself in different ways, so if you could show me what I'm saying that you disagree with, that would be better.

[mrjack]

In real life, people's personalities aren't defined by their sexual orientation.  Just as a straight man wouldn't be defined by his (potentially exclusive) preference for blonde women, or Asian women, or women shorter than himself, I don't see why a gay male character has to somehow have , or not have, a specific type of personality because he's gay.  Yes, there are stereotypes regarding gay culture (be it pop culture, or things associated with the push toward equality) in Western society, but those things don't exist in Thedas.  
 
Hmm... I hope I can say all this right, and have it make sense, without offending anyone as that is not my intention.  In Thedas there are no gay bars and clubs (far as I know), no movements to legalize gay marriage, no huge cultural or political hang-ups against gay relationships.  So those things we associate with being gay in our culture (not to say all gay people are interested in/involved in these things) wouldn't contribute to a gay person's sense of self in the Dragon Age world. Does that make sense?

Agreed. Thedas is a place that is virtually free from discrimination based on sexuality and skin colour. I like it this way because it gives people who do suffer from that discrimination a chance to escape it. For those who do want to get into the politics of discrimination, you have the persecution of mages, elves and refugees and the struggles of the extremely impoverished held up against the disgusting wealth of the noble class.