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[Gwydden]

Unfortunately it does. It is not uncommon for girls where I live to try really hard to look white. I was told from a young age to avoid the sun, because dark was ugly.

I... was actually teased for being the palest person in my family. And I have olive skin that can only get so pale, even under extreme sunlight deprivation.

 

As do I.

 

There's a number of biological factors in what is found to be attractive, many boiling down to visual indicators of wealth.  Two hundred years ago, a plus-sized figure would have been ideal, showing an abundance of access to good, expensive food.  Pale skin showed that one could afford to be inside all day, paying someone else to work their fields.  These days, a think figure shows that one can afford a nutritionist telling them what to eat, or to visit the gym, or access to less fatty, more expensive food.  A tan shows that one has time to spend outside at the beach rather than inside, in an office cubicle. 

I cannot shake the feeling people overthink this.

[Clockwork_Wings]

I also meant that I find it pretty impossible to believe that living in a culture where you are constantly told "X=beautiful" and "Y=ugly" would have 0 impact on people during sexual development.  However, it doesn't necessarily mean they are making conscious choices about who or what to find attractive.  It will however shape outcomes just as biology does.

Pretty much.  Consider The Big Bang Theory.  We're constantly told Penny is a superior physical specimen than Bernadette or Amy.  Bernadette is also slender and blond, and Amy's actress is quite pretty when not in character.  Does costuming and glasses count so much?

 

Consider The New Adventures of Old Christine.  Most of the jokes center around how fat, stupid, ugly, and disgusting (they got two of those right) Old Christine is, and yet they don't event try to make her come across as fat OR ugly. 

 

A plus-size female will nearly always be one of two things: the grandmotherly type, or a joke at the expense of her weight.

 

Jimquisition had a video about the female figure in video games.  Think of some nonstandard male body types.  Mario, Luigi, Pac-Man, Robotnik, etc.  Think of some for women:  ...Mrs. Pacman.  Impa had a round figure in the game boy Zelda games.

[Clockwork_Wings]

I... was actually teased for being the palest person in my family. And I have olive skin that can only get so pale, even under extreme sunlight deprivation.

 

I cannot shake the feeling people overthink this.

Probably, but there's a zoological precedent.  I read somewhere that healthier peacocks with fewer parasites have more eyes in their feathers, for instance.

 

It's largely the same in my family.  We bought pre-mixed henna at some point and one brand looked lovely on other members of my family, but looked like a smear of old ketchup on me.

[Statare]

My point being (sorry for the double post, just remembered what I was trying to get at) was that I don't see why a gay character would be written differently than a straight character. 

 

Steve from Mass Effect is a good example, I think.  Yes, our interaction with his character is defined largely by his relationship with his late husband.  But the fact that it was a husband, not a wife, doesn't change who he is.  He's still a man, grieving over his love, with interests beyond love/sex/gender issues.  But there's just enough there - the banters between him and Vega, for example, to make his being gay not feel like an afterthought.  I imagine Sera's character will be approached in a similar fashion.

 

I agree characters like Steve are wonderful. He's my favorite romance from ME3, even if the thought of Kaidain was super... captivating. Edit: I am leaving this misspelling to show how awful it is. Forgive me.

 

Yet, I also am skeptical that we think we need to have gay characters who seem like their sexuality does not matter to them. For most non-straight people in our world, our sexuality comes with a lot of baggage. We are treated differently in many places, and where I live it is not uncommon to be harassed, assaulted or yes, even killed, if you are visibly non-normative. Unfortunately, that is a reality. Even if we don't face persecution, some of us even live in communities and revel in the intricacies of a "queer" subculture. So, sometimes I feel that having queer characters that act just like straight people and are always non-vocal about their sexuality erases difference and seems as unrelateable to some queer people as having only straight characters. In a way, it feels like censorship, or a normative push away from aspects of queer subjectivity present in the real world that are specific to queer people.

[Gwydden]

Probably, but there's a zoological precedent.  I read somewhere that healthier peacocks with fewer parasites have more eyes in their feathers, for instance.

But tastes are not homogeneous. Whatever is considered the ideal of beauty by media isn't necessarily what most people consider attractive. I can see plenty of issues with your array of theories. Why are there men who dislike very thin women as much as overweight women? Why are there men who prefer blondes, or redheads, or brunettes, or Asian women? Why am I extremely picky about facial features and precisely for that reason don't think Angelina Jolie is very attractive, despite the pop culture hype? What is the pattern here?

 

Also, I could handwave the predominance of relatively heavy women in Renaissance art as the artists being payed by, you know, nobles.

[Clockwork_Wings]

But tastes are not homogeneous. Whatever is considered the ideal of beauty by media isn't necessarily what most people consider attractive. I can see plenty of issues with your array of theories. Why are there men who dislike very thin women as much as overweight women? Why are there men who prefer blondes, or redheads, or brunettes, or Asian women? What is the pattern here?

There isn't one.  Some people like Pepsi, some people like Coke, some people like off-brand, fruit-flavored sodas. 

 

The media can only show us what they understand of the world.  They're not always right.  Wasn't that the origin of this discussion?  How there's not a lot of representation of certain demographics, despite there being a market for it?

[syllogi]

In real life, people's personalities aren't defined by their sexual orientation.  Just as a straight man wouldn't be defined by his (potentially exclusive) preference for blonde women, or Asian women, or women shorter than himself, I don't see why a gay male character has to somehow have , or not have, a specific type of personality because he's gay.  Yes, there are stereotypes regarding gay culture (be it pop culture, or things associated with the push toward equality) in Western society, but those things don't exist in Thedas.  

 

Hmm... I hope I can say all this right, and have it make sense, without offending anyone as that is not my intention.  In Thedas there are no gay bars and clubs (far as I know), no movements to legalize gay marriage, no huge cultural or political hang-ups against gay relationships.  So those things we associate with being gay in our culture (not to say all gay people are interested in/involved in these things) wouldn't contribute to a gay person's sense of self in the Dragon Age world. Does that make sense?

 

Err...but would you walk into a gay bar in real life, and tell the patrons, "Look, y'all are just the same as straight people, so you might as well close this place down and assimilate, okay?" or go to a LGBT organization on a college campus and tell them to disband, because they don't need to worry about coming out, or feeling like they have a sense of community based on their sexual orientation or gender identity?  That would be pretty rude and presumptuous, right?

 

I really do hope that gay people in Thedas do have their own culture and history, even if it hasn't been discussed previously, and even if it's barely touched on, it would be very interesting to me.  The whole point of having LGBT characters is representation, right?  So why can't they be relatable to real people?

[Gwydden]

There isn't one.  Some people like Pepsi, some people like Coke, some people like off-brand, fruit-flavored sodas. 

 

The media can only show us what they understand of the world.  They're not always right.  Wasn't that the origin of this discussion?  How there's not a lot of representation of certain demographics, despite there being a market for it?

And why do people like Pepsi and not Coke, or the other way around?  Why do some people like both?

 

That's my point exactly. It isn't the dreaded "media" that makes us like them. Our likes and dislikes are set from the beginning. Maybe there's some room for modification, but not as much as you seem to think. Socialization doesn't create our tastes in sexual partners any more than it does the ones we have in food, entertainment, or anything else. Heck, the very fact that there are markets that are not being catered to reinforces this.

 

Do excuse my phrasing, but I always found sociology to be mostly BS 

[Fialka]

I agree characters like Steve are wonderful. He's my favorite romance from ME3, even if the thought of Kaidain was super... captivating. 

 

Yet, I also am skeptical that we think we need to have gay characters who seem like their sexuality does not matter to them. For most non-straight people in our world, our sexuality comes with a lot of baggage. We are treated differently in many places, and where I live it is not uncommon to be harassed, assaulted or yes, even killed, if you are visibly non-normative. Unfortunately, that is a reality. Even if we don't face persecution, some of us even live in communities and revel in the intricacies of a "queer" subculture. So, sometimes I feel that having queer characters that act just like straight people and are always non-vocal about their sexuality erases difference and seems as unrelateable to some queer people as having only straight characters. In a way, it feels like censorship, or a normative push away from aspects of queer subjectivity present in the real world that are specific to queer people.

That does make sense, absolutely.  However, as I said earlier, it might not make sense when your story takes place in a world like Thedas (or the Mass Effect universe) where homosexuality and bisexuality aren't that big a deal (beyond perhaps the whole needing an heir issue).   At least as far as we know... these gay characters we meet in Inquisition may well tell us a different story.  

 

I do see your point though.  As a straight person, I'm definitely on the outside looking in as far as what it means to be gay in this world, in this time.  But I can understand wanting those issues openly addressed in one of the very few games made with gay players in mind.  I also get the other side, where you might want to play a game where you can briefly escape all that.

[Statare]

I  understand where you are going with this, but from a storytelling perspective I would rather not interject RL cultures into DA.  I specifically like being able to confront moral and ethical quandaries in the game without all the baggage that comes from real world social issues. For one thing, it seems impossible to interject RL cultures into an RPG without either A) allowing people to have unsavory reactions to those cultures or forcing the player to only be able to interact with them positively.  One breeds abuse.  The other breeds resentment.  Neither of those seem to do much to promote the kind of inclusiveness the game is going for.  If gay players are simply asking for a wider range of personality types among gay characters, I'm all for that, but I don't really see what personality type has to do with culture except in the broadest possible sense.  (Aren't the English supposed to have a good sense of humor or something as an example?) 

 

This is one reason I really can't stand the mage/templar debate because of the all the RL baggage that inevitably gets brought into a debate about rights vs. security.  This is arguably *the* biggest RL moral quandary of the hour. 

 

Edit: I dunno what happened. to this part of my post. Yeah I agree with you, but I was talking more in the general and not DA, and it is still weird for ME which is rooted a lot in Reality.

 

If we go strictly by lore, It kind of makes sense for DA to have different ideas, but then for example, the Qunari don't accept any form of sex for pleasure (and persecute people who do) and the Dalish value reproduction to the extent they might not be okay with a Dalish who was asexual or homosexual. So, there is still a precedent that makes sense in the Lore.

[Clockwork_Wings]

And why do people like Pepsi and not Coke, or the other way around? Why do some people like both?

That's my point exactly. It isn't the dreaded "media" that makes us like them. Our likes and dislikes are set from the beginning. Maybe there's some room for modification, but not as much as you seem to think. Socialization doesn't create our tastes in sexual partners any more than it does the ones we have in food, entertainment, or anything else. Heck, the very fact that there are markets that are not being catered to reinforces this.

Do excuse my phrasing, but I always found sociology to be mostly BS

I don't think it's as cut and dry as "we like what the media tells us to" but we're social animals and learn from what we see in our environment. I see a lot of media that doesn't seem to be good, but people say they like it because they feel they're supposed to. Paris Hilton, the Kardashians, certain music.

Although in some cases it's less "like it" and more "love to hate it."

[syllogi]

I think some of this community is defensive (not that it's in any way negative).  Take gay bars for an example.  Things like Stonewall occurred because gay bars were about the only outlet that homosexual people had in a society that forced them to hide themselves.  There will always be gay bars for simple reasons of "I want to go somewhere where I have a higher chance of meeting someone who finds me attractive that I also find attractive" but I doubt they would have the singular status as a symbol of pride and community if they had not become *the* place where gay people were forced to gather and where they chose to start fighting back.  If this persecution never existed, I do think the gay bar would largely just been a point of practicality rather than culture.  If gay people really, honestly aren't treated any differently in Thedas, why should they regard themselves as being different beyond a superficiality that makes as much cultural difference as whether or not they happen to have blonde hair?

 

I get how this *isn't* how things are in RL, but I do think it makes sense they are that way in DA. 

 

Well, look at video gamers, as a community.  We have a culture, and history, and while plenty of us might have been teased for being geeks as kids, I don't think the video game community at large was born from a common sense of persecution.  And video gamers relate to, and cross over with, comic book fans and sci-fi and fantasy fans.  Sort of how the LGBT community relates, when they're not all exactly the same or have the same issues.  Obviously video game fans and gay people are not the best comparison ever, but you get the idea.  Gay people in Thedas don't have to have the same history as gay people in real life, but they can have commonalities that make them seek each other out.  That's the kind of thing I'd like to see, if possible.

[soluzion]

This is both a response to you and the guy you quoted. I can think of a few -- Namely the Persona games. To me the 'love' scenarios in that game were written, and felt, more down to earth without unecessary awkward sex scenes and not making them overly important for character development, except that they still provided a certain amount of growth for otherwise excellent characters. Now, back to the discussion about BioMances before the inevitable derailing.

yaaaa persona did romances very but there were implied sex a few times in the romances. Especially in 4

[Statare]

I still have a hard time agreeing with the idea that a queer person in Thedas must act like a straight person in Thedas. Largely, gender roles still exist in Thedas. Largely, homosexual relationships are not visible (at least from what we have seen) in Thedas. Largely, heterosexuality is assumed to be default (Hawke's mom). There is also prejudiced ca ca heads like Gamlen.

 

It still feels like making silent/subtle/straight acting queer people in Thedas is silencing any critique of those aforementioned structural issues.

[Statare]

This I would be okay with largely because it would be free of the kind of RL baggage I want to avoid.  Though would this really make gay characters more relatable for gay players?  If gay people in DA have some culture that doesn't have anything to do with gay culture in RL, wouldn't they almost become as fantastical as elves or dwarves or Orlesians or any other made up culture?  I'm not gay so obviously I can't answer this question.  I can at least say that I don't really identity more with say Ferelden because Ferelden is more or less England, and I'm more or less the product of a culture descended from England.  I suppose Ferelden does seem more familiar to me at least, but I don't know that I actually identify with it more than any given other culture in the game.   

 

The problem is aspects of real life straight culture are carried over to Thedas.... so why shouldn't real life aspects of gay culture or gay people's lives be carried over?

[TheChris92]

yaaaa persona did romances very but there were implied sex a few times in the romances. Especially in 4

"You spent a long time" could mean anything. The point is that there isn't any, which only strengthens the idea that the strength in good romance subplot lies in the chemistry, the growth, the characterizations and dialogue exchanges etc.

[mrjack]

I agree characters like Steve are wonderful. He's my favorite romance from ME3, even if the thought of Kaidain was super... captivating. Edit: I am leaving this misspelling to show how awful it is. Forgive me.
 
Yet, I also am skeptical that we think we need to have gay characters who seem like their sexuality does not matter to them. For most non-straight people in our world, our sexuality comes with a lot of baggage. We are treated differently in many places, and where I live it is not uncommon to be harassed, assaulted or yes, even killed, if you are visibly non-normative. Unfortunately, that is a reality. Even if we don't face persecution, some of us even live in communities and revel in the intricacies of a "queer" subculture. So, sometimes I feel that having queer characters that act just like straight people and are always non-vocal about their sexuality erases difference and seems as unrelateable to some queer people as having only straight characters. In a way, it feels like censorship, or a normative push away from aspects of queer subjectivity present in the real world that are specific to queer people.

Being part of a subculture is attractive to anyone who feels that they are rejected or do not conform with mainstream culture. I am myself, part of the queer subculture and geek subculture but these are slowly being eroded as they become more mainstream. This is both a good and bad thing. I didn't realise at the time how isolationist I had become within the gay community to the point that anything heteronormative = evil in my eyes and I wanted no part of it. Now, I see myself as a visible and respected minority within the mainstream. I am no less gay but it doesn't define me like it used to. I realised that by being what I thought was non-conformist was actually the opposite. I'd wear "gay" clothes, listem to "gay" club music, "watch "gay" cinema, hang out with almost exclusively gay friends and even adopted "gay" affectations that weren't natural to me. So I was basically just another sheep following a different shepherd.

I don't care about what anyone thinks about my sexuality anymore and it is liberating to take part in society as a whole and not feel the need to shut myself away for fear of not being accepted. I don't want to be part of an underclass in Thedas unless I choose to experience that (e.g. playing as a city elf) and I certainly don't what to be respected any less in game because of who my character chooses to love. I'm all for subverting the norm and living life in unconventional ways but not at the expense of constantly feeling like I am "other" when really I'm just different - as are we all.

[Statare]

Do straight people have a culture?  I've certainly never felt like "straight" forms any meaningful part of my identity.  If I was to make a list of the top ten things that make me who I am "straight" wouldn't even be on it.  Honestly, something as obscure and made up as "xenophile" would probably rank higher.

 

 

Straight culture, as with white culture, presents itself as normal. hence heteronormativity. Straight culture includes things like gender role divisions, includes things like expecting a person to be straight unless proven otherwise. It includes things like most movies being about straight people. Etc.

 

My friend Humbi (not real name) is straight. His mother helped find him a  girlfriend. They walk down streets holding hands. They go to stores and see loving couples who are the same gender set up as them on tele.

 

Thing is, I can easily see a person like Humbi in Thedas, but I can't see a person like me in Thedas. Because Thedas seems more like our heteronormative real world, than not.