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[Statare]

Being part of a subculture is attractive to anyone who feels that they are rejected or do not conform with mainstream culture. I am myself, part of the queer subculture and geek subculture but these are slowly being eroded as they become more mainstream. This is both a good and bad thing. I didn't realise at the time how isolationist I had become within the gay community to the point that anything heteronormative = evil in my eyes and I wanted no part of it. Now, I see myself as a visible and respected minority within the mainstream. I am no less gay but it doesn't define me like it used to. I realised that by being what I thought was non-conformist was actually the opposite. I'd wear "gay" clothes, listem to "gay" club music, "watch "gay" cinema, hang out with almost exclusively gay friends and even adopted "gay" affectations that weren't natural to me. So I was basically just another sheep following a different shepherd.

I don't care about what anyone thinks about my sexuality anymore and it is liberating to take part in society as a whole and not feel the need to shut myself away for fear of not being accepted. I don't want to be part of an underclass in Thedas unless I choose to experience that (e.g. playing as a city elf) and I certainly don't what to be respected any less in game because of who my character chooses to love. I all for subverting the norm and living life in unconventional ways but not at the expense of constantly feeling like I am "other" when really I'm just different - as are we all.

 

And I wear high heals, lipstick, have immaculate facial hair, and go to queer community events whenever I can. I feel liberated as well. Different boats for different folks (is that the saying I have no idea).

 

Edit: I can't like what you posted, but I wanted to. 

[Schreckstoff]

"You spent a long time" could mean anything. The point is that there isn't any, which only strengthens the idea that the strength in good romance subplot lies in the chemistry, the growth, the characterizations and dialogue exchanges etc.

I remember Yu and Minato spending the night quite frequently

[XMissWooX]

I think there is a difference between changing what people find attractive, and changing yourself so that people find you attractive.

For example, say I fancied someone, but they liked blondes. I couldn't change their preference so that they would find my brown hair more attractive than blonde hair, but I could dye my brown hair blone to make myself look more attractive to them.

So sometimes getting a tan, going on a diet, lifting weights, etc. would be necessary to woo someone even if the media didn't push a specific standard of beauty.
Not to mention an abundance of people who find larger men/women, or short/tall men/women, or masculine women/feminine men attractive, which are not ideals I believe the media pushes.

[TheChris92]

I remember Yu and Minato spending the night quite frequently

Wut?

[Schreckstoff]

Wut?

Yu Narukami (4) and Minato Arisato (3) are the official names of the protags from Persona 3 and 4.

[TheChris92]

Yu Narukami (4) and Minato Arisato (3) are the official names of the protags from Persona 3 and 4.

Well, the latter isn't really official as of yet, but your comment doesn't make sense regardless. What are you saying?

[Statare]

So straight culture essentially = freedom from persecution or marginalization?  I don't think I follow this line of logic.  If simple lack of persecution is all it takes to make a culture than wouldn't unapologetic gay people in Thedas also have a culture since they don't suffer persecution?

 

All of these things you are describing don't seem "straight" to me.  They just seem like behaviors humans engage in when they undertake relationships.  It's not "straight" for a gay couple to hold hands on the street, or for a gay guy's mother to hook him up with another guy, or for a gay couple to sit together at a restaurant.  Public affection/support doesn't = straight. I also strongly disagree with the notion that straight = heteronormative culturally.  Sure, being straight means I will never know what's it's like to be gay.  But I don't necessarily think it means I go bumbling around in a general fog of obliviousness that everyone on Earth must be just like me and that I represent "normal."  It seems like the cultural line you are drawing between straight/gay is essentially "not oppressed/oppressed" and  "not afraid/afraid." First, I admit I would find it sad if gay culture was *only* about fear/marginalization even if that's arguably what created it, and second, if persecution *doesn't* exist toward gay people in Thedas, wouldn't this by your definition form a culture in the same way that lack of persecution formed "straight" culture?

 

I can't see how I said all those things when I wrote very little (maybe that is the problem, I am multitasking sorry). I am saying that there are differences in queer and straight culture. It does not all boil down to sexual preference because we live in a world where who we are attracted to means different things. Maybe my experience is different because I am Latindi@ (indigenous with latin heritage, and queer). Even so, Thedas is not that different from our society. It is not unreasonable to expect there to be subcultures.

 

The difference between straight and gay culture is not also based on lines of oppression, but my subjectivity as a queer, person of color is different than someone who is white and straight because of life experiences.

 

If there were no instances where there was no queer subjectivity displayed in Thedas or no instances of heteronormativity in Thedas, I could understand. Yet, characters like Herren and Wade exist. Bigots like Gamlen exist. Gender roles exist. Visible gay characters are few and far between.

 

So it boils down to this: why do these things exist and seem normal to you, but having a character who is gay and acts slightly effeminate so mind blowing to you?

 

Edit: I also don't want to derail this anymore. I'm sorry for what I have done. @Ragabul: I really enjoy what you have to say and I really don't think we disagree at a fundamental level, but in the minutae. PM me if you wanna continue talking. I have to go, but I enjoy what you have said. It's hard to convey tone when you are a) typing cleaning c) on a phone. 

[Statare]

I never said Thedas seemed normal.  One of the chief reasons I like it is because it's *not* normal and thus is good escapism fuel.  Equally rare in Thedas are the realities of what many gay people deal with in RL (especially historically) including laws that forbid sodomy and gay marriage, religious groups that go about claiming homosexuality is a sin, doctors telling them they have a disorder and subjecting them to invasive treatments to "cure" them, physical violence when people discover them, etc.

 

I also never said the existence of a gay subculture would really bother me. I would have 0 issues with an effeminate gay character being present, but to me this has more to do with personality than culture anyway. In fact I explicitly stated that I didn't want the interjection of RL gay culture as it relates to gay rights.  The thing I do *not* want in Thedas is for gay people to have "persecuted/marginalized/pick your word choice" as a chief source of identity for them. What I am saying is that I do not want every gay character in DA to become just another personification of the gay rights debate.  Let them be interesting characters with unique personalities and subcultures and whatever else.

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but I thought you were arguing for the inclusion of gay culture so that it could challenge the perceived "heteronormative" DA society.  I want DA society to exist in such a way that the word "heteronormative" is meaningless.   

 

 

I put an add en dum (brain not working) in an edit on that post. I'm mutli tasking and mode shifiting from Spanish to English right now to right this. It's making things a little hard to be clear. I agree with your last statement 100% I just see elements of Thedas being a lot like our current society, but little representation of queer characters and I get conflicted.

 

Anyways. I don't want to derail this thread any more than I have. Sorry guys. 

[mrjack]

If there were no instances where there was no queer subjectivity displayed in Thedas or no instances of heteronormativity in Thedas, I could understand. Yet, characters like Herren and Wade exist. Bigots like Gamlen exist. Gender roles exist. Visible gay characters are few and far between.
 
So it boils down to this: why do these things exist and seem normal to you, but having a character who is gay and acts slightly effeminate so mind blowing to you?

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't using the @ sign mean you see yourself also as non gender-binary? If that's the case, or even if you're just a guy who likes lipstick and heels, I can see why you'd feel under-represented in video games. You're right that if there are bigots in the game then there should be people who speak out about the bigotry. And if there are people who speak out, how have they not come together to challenge these people and as such develop their own subculture? And within that subculture, why are we not seeing the whole range of fem boys and drag queens to gym bunnies and bears? I can't answer that question except to say that maybe it will just take time. Which is a sad thing I know but what you are looking for is so niche at this point in time that I can't see developers catering to it specifically.

If you're just looking for an effeminate gay character who's proud of who he is, you might not have to wait too long.

[Statare]

Okay, fair enough.  Is this really off topic?  I thought it fit pretty well as it seemed we were essentially debating what kind of gay romance we would like to see. That is always the context I meant it in anyway. Afterall, the homosexuals characters we get to know the most in the games are almost invariably the romance options, and homosexual romances are an explicit point of attempted inclusiveness because they are what allow the PC to be gay.

 

Sorry, if my long walls of text come off as overwhelming or combative.  Debating to the point of ridiculous minutia is just a thing I enjoy. 

 

I enjoyed it. I just am paranoid about keeping these types of threads obviously, un-debatably hospitable and on topic because they have a tendency to be deleted. Which ends up silencing a conversation I think is important for a lot of people.

 

I ran out of likes to like what you say @mrjack 

 

Edit: @mrjack, the @ (arroba) sign can mean that yes. But in Spanish, nouns are gendered. Some people, like myself, might identify as a man, but disagree with the structure of a language that puts divisions arbitrarily or emphasizes the male in the plural. I use Latindi@ also because of traditional aspects of my birth culture that had more complicated concepts of gender than the people who colonized us have.

[venusara]

I enjoyed it. I just am paranoid about keeping these types of threads obviously, un-debatably hospitable and on topic because they have a tendency to be deleted. Which ends up silencing a conversation I think is important for a lot of people.
 
I ran out of likes to like what you say @mrjack 

I really enjoy reading these types of deeper discussion. I found this one very thought provoking while also relevant to the topic personally. Just my two cents

[Fialka]

I really enjoy reading these types of deeper discussion. I found this one very thought provoking while also relevant to the topic personally. Just my two cents

Same here 

 

I only a contributed to this convo a little bit, but found it an interesting read.  And everyone stayed civil this time, which is a wonderful change of pace.  Wish we had more of that, to be honest.

 

As far as being OT - well, maybe, but it does relate to what we want to see in relationships with and between the characters in the game - romantic or otherwise.

[cnmorgan13]

I seem to find with the bioware romances it seems to be the last person you'd suspect. The connection with the characters are spot on in the games, they got me with Alistair, Fenris and Thane. I'm not sure who I'd romance in DA:I, I guess I'll find out. I would like to 'ride the bull' though ^_~

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The only person I know enough about as a character to be interested in is Varric.  The others are mostly just faceless entities to me at the moment.  Cassandra seems kind of boring, and I don't like that Solas is bald.  That's about the extent of my assessing of potential romance options at this point.  (Well, that and I will be annoyed if only male humans are romanceable for straight females)  I'd probably play a gay dude if it meant a non human.  Then again personality can make up for a lot.  Alistair is arguably my favorite Bioware romance despite being a sort of poster child for stereotypical attractions in women.

Well, if Iron Bull or Varric are bi you'll have a non-human LI for straight females. More than we can say for straight males since the three followers possibly available to them are all human(Cassandra, Scribbles, Vivienne).

[mrjack]

Does the mere presence of one or two jerks really mark pronounced cultural bigotry?

I'm not sure to be honest. Would it be there at all if not part of some social construct? I really disliked the Gamlen character but I also loved to hate him if you know what I mean. My angelic Hawke didn't get the opportunity to tell people to do one very often so it was refreshing to be able to do that with someone as wholly unlikeable as Gamlen. That being said, he was never homophobic to me, just a ****** in general. I must have missed that.

I ran out of likes to like what you say @mrjack 
 
Edit: @mrjack, the @ (arroba) sign can mean that yes. But in Spanish, nouns are gendered. Some people, like myself, might identify as a man, but disagree with the structure of a language that puts divisions arbitrarily or emphasizes the male in the plural. I use Latindi@ also because of traditional aspects of my birth culture that had more complicated concepts of gender than the people who colonized us have.

Speaking as someone who lives in a country that is a former colonial power (England), I look back and see how disgraceful it all was, and I think to myself that although we can't change the past, we shouldn't be ignorant of our past crimes against humanity lest they happen again. Keep fighting the good fight.

[daveliam]

I never played a gay character in DA2 so I couldn't say either.  Though I do agree that Gamlen just seemed more like a general jerk to me than specifically a homophobe.  I just think he resented Hawke on principal and would have criticized Hawke about anything he could - being a mage, parentage, having a silly hat, etc.

 

Gamlen was one of the only characters who I think was openly homophobic and, even then, it was more derisive than aggressive.  If you are a male Hawke in a m/m romance, he makes a comment about, "You and the elf (mage), huh?  I guess I don't have to ask which one of you is the girl?"  It's pretty clear that he's not joking when he says it.  If you are a female Hawke in a f/f romance, he makes a comment to the effect of "girl on girl = hot", despite one of the girls being his niece.  Of course, I've never actually gotten this dialogue because I've never finished a female Hawke playthrough, so I'm just going by what I've heard on the boards.

 

Either way, he's pretty openly homophobic in the m/m case and, at best, really inappropriate in the f/f case.

[syllogi]

Regarding Gamlen's homophobia, here you go (from here):

 

• (In Gamlen’s House) So, you’re into elves, huh? I guess I don’t have to ask which one of you’s the girl. (to a male Hawke if Fenris is romanced)
• (In Gamlen’s House) So, you’re into elves, huh? It takes all kinds. (to a female Hawke if Fenris is romanced)
• (In Gamlen’s House) So, I’ve heard you let that apostate live at your place. I guess I don’t have to ask which one of you’s the girl. (to a male Hawke if Anders is romanced)
• (In Gamlen’s House) I hear you moved that apostate boy into your house. You really are your mother’s daughter. (to a female Hawke if Anders is romanced)
• (In Gamlen’s House) So, I hear that you’ve been slipping it to that pirate **** from the Hanged Man. What’s that like? Two women? I’ve always wondered… (to a female Hawke if Isabela is romanced)
• (In Gamlen’s House) So, I hear that you’ve been slipping it to that pirate **** from the Hanged Man. The ****** turned me down flat. (to a male Hawke if Isabela is romanced)

Yeah, eww.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Regarding Gamlen's homophobia, here you go (from here):

 

• (In Gamlen’s House) So, you’re into elves, huh? I guess I don’t have to ask which one of you’s the girl. (to a male Hawke if Fenris is romanced)
• (In Gamlen’s House) So, you’re into elves, huh? It takes all kinds. (to a female Hawke if Fenris is romanced)
• (In Gamlen’s House) So, I’ve heard you let that apostate live at your place. I guess I don’t have to ask which one of you’s the girl. (to a male Hawke if Anders is romanced)
• (In Gamlen’s House) I hear you moved that apostate boy into your house. You really are your mother’s daughter. (to a female Hawke if Anders is romanced)
• (In Gamlen’s House) So, I hear that you’ve been slipping it to that pirate **** from the Hanged Man. What’s that like? Two women? I’ve always wondered… (to a female Hawke if Isabela is romanced)
• (In Gamlen’s House) So, I hear that you’ve been slipping it to that pirate **** from the Hanged Man. The ****** turned me down flat. (to a male Hawke if Isabela is romanced)

Yeah, eww.

What about Merrill?