19658 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Can you elaborate on the ME2 MShep romance bit? The Tali romance can perhaps come of as creepy, and I will agree with Xil that Meer's voice acting wasn't quite....not sure what word to use, sensitive perhaps ..

But the other two I didn't think entered creepy territory, especially not Miranda's..

[Xilizhra]

Well, all Shepard romances are an example of someone in a position of authority playing a favorite by screwing a subordinate. On those grounds alone is the first mark. But, in short: Jack's is to **** an emotionally traumatized person who needs therapy (which is exploitative), Tali's is **** someone at real and open risk to their  health because of their hero-worship (which is exploitative), and Miranda... Miranda is a bit less exploitative, but I find the dialogue about how she really only smiles after taking some vitamin D to be offensive for the same reason I find Jack's ME2 arc disgraceful.

 

Tali's could have been far sweeter and less hormonal if it were responsible and passed on the physical risk in exchange for a tender, emotional unity or even, god forbid, toys. Jack's would have been less creepy if it had a non-romance arc conclusion of Jack healing and connecting with others after anything other than Shepard's magic healing ****. And no, ME3 doesn't cancel out the nature of ME2's work.

Well, I've more or less always agreed with you about Jack. However, I'll point out that the thing with Tali wouldn't quite work that way; Tali's arc isn't really about romance alone, but her extreme desire to just feel something outside of the suit. Hell, I think Shepard actually can try to dissuade her from the risk, but Tali doesn't want to be dissuaded on that.

 

Also, by the time of ME3, she's stabilized enough that sex is no longer a real risk for her at all; quarian adaptive immune systems thankfully go both ways.

[Ianamus]

I don't really see the issue with Tali's romance path to be honest. Every single Quarian who so much as takes off their helmet in the vicinity of another person will have to go through illness. Either she did it anyway and became sick or spent her entire life living in her suit never having physical contact with anyone.

 

If it was only humans who made her sick, or Shepard specifically, then I would see the problem, but she specifically said that even Quarians who share suit environments become ill, so I really don't see the issue.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, I've more or less always agreed with you about Jack. However, I'll point out that the thing with Tali wouldn't quite work that way; Tali's arc isn't really about romance alone, but her extreme desire to just feel something outside of the suit. Hell, I think Shepard actually can try to dissuade her from the risk, but Tali doesn't want to be dissuaded on that.

 

Also, by the time of ME3, she's stabilized enough that sex is no longer a real risk for her at all; quarian adaptive immune systems thankfully go both ways.

 

Which is where the creep factor comes in with the romance. If Tali had the issue in her friendship arc, and just wanted to get out of her suit for a bit, that's one thing. But it's not just to get out of the suit. It's to ****, and be fucked, by her hero Shepard. Which is a serious risk. Which the romance ultimately encourages by breaking it off if you don't.

 

 

Edit: wtf? **** is censored, but not fucked?

[AkiKishi]

Is Shepard taking advantage, or does Shepard just share those feelings. All PCs are in a position of power, goes with the territory. Shepards a larger than life sort of character (Captain Kirk) . Most Bioware characters are , the situations are warped archetypes not reality. 

 

Any sort of romance ultimately comes down to intent.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't really see the issue with Tali's romance path to be honest. Every single Quarian who so much as takes off their helmet in the vicinity of another person will have to go through illness. Either she did it anyway and became sick or spent her entire life living in her suit never having physical contact with anyone.

 

If it was only humans who made her sick, or Shepard specifically, then I would see the problem, but she specifically said that even Quarians who share suit environments become ill, so I really don't see the issue.

 

If you don't see the issue with indulging potentially fatal fanworship for a boning before a critical mission as an expression of love, that I probably can't explain it to you. I don't criticize people who enjoy it, or any of the other romances. I just find it disturbing myself.

 

(But then, I find all the Commander Shepard bones a subordinate relationships disturbing, because of how I view command relationships).

[TheLittleTpot]

In regards to Jack, didn't the romance actually require you to turn down her offer for casual sex? I kinda find that to be the opposite of exploitative. Then again, I never did that romance so I may just be talking out of my trousers.

[AkiKishi]

In regards to Jack, didn't the romance actually require you to turn down her offer for casual sex? I kinda find that to be the opposite of exploitative. Then again, I never did that romance so I may just be talking out of my trousers.

 

It does. People object to Shepard having a healing member. But in pretty much every case the relationship between NPC and PC is one of fixee and fixer. That extends beyond romance.

[Dean_the_Young]

Is Shepard taking advantage, or does Shepard just share those feelings. All PCs are in a position of power, goes with the territory. Shepards a larger than life sort of character (Captain Kirk) . Most Bioware characters are , the situations are warped archetypes not reality. 

 

Any sort of romance ultimately comes down to intent.

 

Sharing the feelings isn't exclusive with taking advantage of them. Tali's choice makes a Poor Decision. Shepard enables it. This disturbs me for the same reason I'd be disturbed if it were a question of having protected sex with someone with a serious STD.

 

Not all PCs are in a position of authority over the companions. Hawke is a great example, actually, since Hawke's crew are just voluntary joining and Hawke has no pretension at authority or a command relationship. The Warden is a bit more iffy, since the party leader isn't exactly an official leader of any organization and the crew is more camp followers than members.

[The Elder King]

In regards to Jack, didn't the romance actually require you to turn down her offer for casual sex? I kinda find that to be the opposite of exploitative. Then again, I never did that romance so I may just be talking out of my trousers.

It's about the fact in ME2 she seems to change and develop because of the romance with Shepard. Though at the end they cleared this by making her change in ME3 regardless of the romance.

[Dean_the_Young]

In regards to Jack, didn't the romance actually require you to turn down her offer for casual sex? I kinda find that to be the opposite of exploitative. Then again, I never did that romance so I may just be talking out of my trousers.

 

It does. It also then requires you to take the sexy time option later on in order for her to be on a clear path of healing.

[HuldraDancer]

Oh, no, you're in the majority. Rest assured. A yandere is an unhealthy relationship.

 

Of course, given the number of remarkably unhealthy companions Bioware throws at us, I've no doubt they could make it entertaining and even sympathetic. A yandere archetype is inherently obsessed, but the nature of the obsession is what can make them more interesting than a random creep.

 

One motivation for yandere is emotional dependence on the target. That sort of suicidal saving throw, where the yandere only finds hope and strength to move forward by pinning the hopes on the target because otherwise they'd have nothing. Dashing those hopes, however one sided, then becomes a basis for homicidal rage. If you understand that, than a yandere's character development could be emotional rehabilitation to the point at which they aren't so dependent. A character arc could thus mean helping them outgrow the yandere tendencies.

 

Alternatively, the yandere tendencies could be a subject of pity and victimization for the yandere itself. Imagine if the yandere was someone who was brainwashed and outright conditioned, against their will, to be like that: what comes off as offensive would be a form of pity as the person has no choice. Again, multiple ways to play it.

I can't think of many in the DA series though aside from.....uh okay never mind most of the DA2 cast were pretty unhealthy romances so I guess DA has done that.

 

I can see how people would look at it differently with it be given different angles to make it look more sympathetic but it still seems really unhealthy and still abusive even given those circumstances. Though when I saw the definition to it my mind went right away to a more manipulative type of 'romance' where one party is forcing the other to stay through guilt and threats and fear and to me at least that's pretty uncomfortable and doesn't seem fun to play at all but to each their own. 

[The Elder King]

Sharing the feelings isn't exclusive with taking advantage of them. Tali's choice makes a Poor Decision. Shepard enables it. This disturbs me for the same reason I'd be disturbed if it were a question of having protected sex with someone with a serious STD.
 
Not all PCs are in a position of authority over the companions. Hawke is a great example, actually, since Hawke's crew are just voluntary joining and Hawke has no pretension at authority or a command relationship. The Warden is a bit more iffy, since the party leader isn't exactly an official leader of any organization and the crew is more camp followers than members.

What do you think, with the knowledge we have so far, in this regard of the Inquisitor?

[Dean_the_Young]

It does. People object to Shepard having a healing member. But in pretty much every case the relationship between NPC and PC is one of fixee and fixer. That extends beyond romance.

 

True. On the other hand, most other fixee companions can be fixed without romantic boning.

 

Honestly, one of the reasons I actually liked ME2 Jacob was because there was no fixing needed whatsoever.

[Ianamus]

If you don't see the issue with indulging potentially fatal fanworship for a boning before a critical mission as an expression of love, that I probably can't explain it to you. I don't criticize people who enjoy it, or any of the other romances. I just find it disturbing myself.

 

(But then, I find all the Commander Shepard bones a subordinate relationships disturbing, because of how I view command relationships).

 

It's not really fan worship. Tali's not some Shepard fan who follows him on the internet but has never met him before, she met him when he was a nobody and had a close friendship with him. 

 

I don't see any problem with a Shepard who also has feelings for her agreeing to sleep with her after she clearly says she wants to and that she's done the research. I understand how people could want the physical aspect to be optional, but I always felt that the whole point of the romance was that Tali knew it was a suicide mission and didn't want to die without telling Shepard how she felt and having never had physical contact with another person in her life. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I can't think of many in the DA series though aside from.....uh okay never mind most of the DA2 cast were pretty unhealthy romances so I guess DA has done that.

 

I can see how people would look at it differently with it be given different angles to make it look more sympathetic but it still seems really unhealthy and still abusive even given those circumstances. Though when I saw the definition to it my mind went right away to a more manipulative type of 'romance' where one party is forcing the other to stay through guilt and threats and fear and to me at least that's pretty uncomfortable and doesn't seem fun to play at all but to each their own. 

 

Sure. No harm, no foul if you don't like it.

 

Yandere's can be trash, or can be interesting. One of the strengths of Future Diary was that it did have exactly what you mention: guilt and threats and fear. But that's not all it had, and in the end distorted fake love was overcome.

[Dean_the_Young]

What do you think, with the knowledge we have so far, in this regard of the Inquisitor?

 

Would Not Approve. ™. The Inquisitor is the leader within (and of) an actual (para)military organization, and the followers (companions and aides) are largely defined subordinates of said Inquisition. That said, romance within the squad (the fighting team) is even worse than diddling around outside, so there is a degree of lesser badness in the general unprofessionalism.

 

That said... one of the fun parts of the DA setting to date is that there is not even a pretense of professionalism. Unlike Commander Shepard, who is supposed to be an excellent soldier and leader and whom I would grade on such things, there's no pretense or expectation of professionalism of the Dragon Age characters unless you choose to (at which point you can choose to forego the romance). Hawke's basically a highway (wo)man of varying morality who people stuck with by choice, and the Warden is an ad hoc conscript with a battlefield promotion because the more senior survivor is even less capable in leading. Military professionalism clearly does not apply here.

 

So I'm pretty comfortable with the Inquisitor being a poor leader, especially since I don't see the Inquistor's selling point being leadership at all. You're a leader by force of action and will, not because of any standard of professionalism or ability in the field. I'll just consider it a character flaw if pursued, rather than a 'holy crap, you failed squad leadership 101.'

[HuldraDancer]

Sure. No harm, no foul if you don't like it.

 

Yandere's can be trash, or can be interesting. One of the strengths of Future Diary was that it did have exactly what you mention: guilt and threats and fear. But that's not all it had, and in the end distorted fake love was overcome.

Depending on how it was portrayed though I might be able to get behind it, like if it was shown as an unhealthy thing and not as something romantic. If its put in it shouldn't be shown as a romance not in the sense of that behavior is being considered sweet or romantic. Which they have come close to doing something like that in DA2 with Anders unless I horribly misunderstood their point with his line of 'I'll drown us both in blood to keep you safe' that's not romantic that's a red flag and a big one at that. Again I could find myself getting into something like that if they portrayed it right and not tried to brush it off as romantic behavior.

[Wulfram]

I'm not sure how much the companions will be subordinates rather than allies.  Many of them appear to have their own independent power bases.

 

And at the least they generally seem like people well capable of telling the Inquisitor to go to hell if so desired.

[Gwydden]

So I'm pretty comfortable with the Inquisitor being a poor leader, especially since I don't see the Inquistor's selling point being leadership at all. You're a leader by force of action and will, not because of any standard of professionalism or ability in the field. I'll just consider it a character flaw if pursued, rather than a 'holy crap, you failed squad leadership 101.'

I doubt the Inquisitor will get much of a choice in the matter. Its "glowy green hand" = "you ought to lead us!". For all we know the (wo)man in question worked diving for pearls in Rivain. Unprofessionalism (not just in romantic liaisons, but in pretty much everything) is to be expected. And that's a path that I think would be fun to watch.

[Dean_the_Young]

Depending on how it was portrayed though I might be able to get behind it, like if it was shown as an unhealthy thing and not as something romantic. If its put in it shouldn't be shown as a romance not in the sense of that behavior is being considered sweet or romantic. Which they have come close to doing something like that in DA2 with Anders unless I horribly misunderstood their point with his line of 'I'll drown us both in blood to keep you safe' that's not romantic that's a red flag and a big one at that. Again I could find myself getting into something like that if they portrayed it right and not tried to brush it off as romantic behavior.

 

One of the strengths(?) of the Yandere is that it's not played as romantic and endearing: it may be played for comedy, but not as a positive. At best it can be 'benign' in that if you romance them and play it perfectly loyal, they won't kill your friends or you.

 

(Did we mention that? Yandere's can kill the ones they love if they think you're cheating.)

[Dean_the_Young]

I doubt the Inquisitor will get much of a choice in the matter. Its "glowy green hand" = "you ought to lead us!". For all we know the (wo)man in question worked diving for pearls in Rivain. Unprofessionalism (not just in romantic liaisons, but in pretty much everything) is to be expected. And that's a path that I think would be fun to watch.

 

My first Inquisitor is going to be creepy-good, with as much emphasis on the creepy as I can. Necromancer reclusive scholar/witch who goes around on a bog unicorn.

[Gwydden]

My first Inquisitor is going to be creepy-good, with as much emphasis on the creepy as I can. Necromancer reclusive scholar/witch who goes around on a bog unicorn.

I wonder. Do your ideas of professionalism, in the context of fooling around with subordinates, apply to a pre-industrial world? Because I'm pretty sure that's a fairly recent rule.

[HuldraDancer]

One of the strengths(?) of the Yandere is that it's not played as romantic and endearing: it may be played for comedy, but not as a positive. At best it can be 'benign' in that if you romance them and play it perfectly loyal, they won't kill your friends or you.

 

(Did we mention that? Yandere's can kill the ones they love if they think you're cheating.)

As something along a lines of a character study (or something similar to that) it could be interesting but I thought someone was asking it as a romance which I'm not sure how that would work at all unless they made all this unsettling things 'romantic' or just made one LI pretty unstable then in that case theres not much reason to be there since we're finding allies that can help deal with the fade and someone that emotionally unstable wouldn't really make much sense being there. Or do they function normally aside from being creepily too attached to one person?

 

Yeah you mentioned the killing their partner part before in an earlier post.

[Dean_the_Young]

I wonder. Do your ideas of professionalism, in the context of fooling around with subordinates, apply to a pre-industrial world? Because I'm pretty sure that's a fairly recent rule.

 

More about military. 'Don't sleep around in the squad or along the chain of command' exists for a number of reasons that apply otherwise, even if they were rare in a heteronormal nearly-all-male military history.