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Well, one looks about thirty years younger and is significantly more athletic than the other, so I don't know if that really counts for determining lesbian characteristics.
I have met a lesbian that looks like her.
I have also met a few lesbians that look nothing like her.
What is a "lesbian look" anyway ?
As for Sera, I like it for the more general attempt at making non-generic characters.
Yeah, sadly.
Ofc lesbians are the 'safer' choice since they've always been titillation for some straight dudes and not an actual representation.
That's only because, of course, those people don't actually believe they're lesbians. Or at least that's how I can make sense of it. It was always the most bizzare concept to me in the world; two women who aren't - and never will be - attracted to me. That's not titillating at all. But society is weird, I guess.
I think what they want is for there to be lesbian characters, not necessarily romance options but just characters, in the game who are unattractive as a demonstration that they aren't there as titillation for male gamers.
Least that seems to be what's going on.
I wouldn't call it "unattractive", but rather "unconventional"...but honestly, there's nothing wrong with having more fictional women who aren't created to be conventionally "pretty." The issue the Mass Effect games had with deciding that they couldn't imagine how to represent female aliens that weren't attractive to men is a perfect example of this.
I also have a sneaking suspicion that female dwarves weren't "important" enough to include in DA2 because they weren't seen as particularly attractive. Not accusing Bioware of a conspiracy, but after the quote about turian women in Mass Effect, I'm wary.
Just because a character is not stereotypically feminine, doesn't mean she's automatically anywhere near what society calls "butch."
It doesn't even *have* to be butch lesbians. Give me women of color with dreadlocks and piercings, fat women with tattoos, anything other than the ultra femme lesbians we see right now.
All right, so... Cassandra? Would Cassandra work? How about Aveline, were she lesbian? Because quite frankly, I'm at kind of a loss as to how your standards work, and what exactly would qualify as "butch." Also fat, as in overweight, people are almost certainly an impossibility, due to the demands of adventuring making it a guarantee that everyone would have to be healthy and fit. Dwarves are naturally curvier than humans, though, so you might have better luck there (and apparently making too many body types for individual races is problematic, zotwise).
Right, but the post said Lea and Rachel. And people responded that Sera did (without specifying which one). If you think she looks like Rachel Maddow, that's fine. I can maybe be convinced of this. But she does not look like Lea DeLaria.
But how could one look like both, since they don't look that much like each other?
What is a "lesbian look" anyway ?
I have no damn clue. Apparently they never gave me the right pamphlet.
I'm gonna say that, if the lesbian LI was a 50+ year old overweight lady, a lot of other lesbians would also not be super stoked. Most people want LIs that are at least somewhat conventionally attractive. I think Cassandra and Aveline are about as unfeminine/unconventional as the female LIs would get. That is to say, not very.
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The problem would be that it kinda messes things up for straight dudes, though. Because the race specific ones are mostly all dudes. Maybe if Scribbles is available to make up the rest for dudes.
As a bi person, I would prefer for the females to be conventional pretty since that's what I'm attracted to. Like I said, it's purely selfishness on my part. You're right that the media has too many feminine pretty girls being shown as lesbians, but gay guys have more variety. We need more NPC lesbians with different types of looks in the game.I think what they want is for there to be lesbian characters, not necessarily romance options but just characters, in the game who are unattractive as a demonstration that they aren't there as titillation for male gamers.
Least that seems to be what's going on.
I wouldn't call it "unattractive", but rather "unconventional"...but honestly, there's nothing wrong with having more fictional women who aren't created to be conventionally "pretty." The issue the Mass Effect games had with deciding that they couldn't imagine how to represent female aliens that weren't attractive to men is a perfect example of this.
I also have a sneaking suspicion that female dwarves weren't "important" enough to include in DA2 because they weren't seen as particularly attractive. Not accusing Bioware of a conspiracy, but after the quote about turian women in Mass Effect, I'm wary.
The DA team has been really tuned in to being progressive, though, unlike the ME team. I would give DA the benefit of the doubt, even with what we saw in ME. It's not that I disagree with you that IRL sexism played a part in the absence of female dwarves in DA2, but I think it didn't have to do with attractiveness but rather with the male = default presumption of our society. Male = default, so male characters are conceived first, then when it comes time to assign zots, the design attitude is not to have women because it costs more.
Notwithstanding the DA:I female qunari model we've seen, the DA2 art about them was very much conventionally attractive. And yet we also had no female qunari, because IMO male = default.
People tend to desire what's unattainable.That's only because, of course, those people don't actually believe they're lesbians. Or at least that's how I can make sense of it. It was always the most bizzare concept to me in the world; two women who aren't - and never will be - attracted to me. That's not titillating at all. But society is weird, I guess.
I wouldn't call it "unattractive", but rather "unconventional"...but honestly, there's nothing wrong with having more fictional women who aren't created to be conventionally "pretty." The issue the Mass Effect games had with deciding that they couldn't imagine how to represent female aliens that weren't attractive to men is a perfect example of this.
I also have a sneaking suspicion that female dwarves weren't "important" enough to include in DA2 because they weren't seen as particularly attractive. Not accusing Bioware of a conspiracy, but after the quote about turian women in Mass Effect, I'm wary.
I wouldn't mind some less conventional LI's in general, really.
But then, I'm a fan of Suicide Girls.
I'm gonna say that, if the lesbian LI was a 50+ year old overweight lady, a lot of other lesbians would also not be super stoked. Most people want LIs that are at least somewhat conventionally attractive. I think Cassandra and Aveline are about as unfeminine/unconventional as the female LIs would get. That is to say, not very.
I'm not sure I can agree on Cassandra not being conventional. Really, at most it's the scar and maybe the hair style that does it, even with the sad reality that what's considered conventionally attractive for women is horridly narrow. Aveline had a lot more features associated (right or wrongly) with being "plain".
People tend to desire what's unattainable.
But that's because they really think it's attainable.
I'm gonna say that, if the lesbian LI was a 50+ year old overweight lady, a lot of other lesbians would also not be super stoked. Most people want LIs that are at least somewhat conventionally attractive. I think Cassandra and Aveline are about as unfeminine/unconventional as the female LIs would get. That is to say, not very.
LOL, I would understand that reaction. Even right now, people seem to be getting defensive when I say that I want to see butch lesbians. They're virtually invisible in media, but somehow I'm asking for all conventionally attractive lesbians to be pushed out just for asking to see any at all.
Look, I like pretty ladies. But my definition of pretty includes more than what we usually see on television when it comes to representations of women, much less lesbians. And even if an older, unfeminine character was just an NPC, I'd be impressed, because that's not something I see anywhere but movies and television made specifically for lesbians, by lesbians.
LOL, I would understand that reaction. Even right now, people seem to be getting defensive when I say that I want to see butch lesbians. They're virtually invisible in media, but somehow I'm asking for all conventionally attractive lesbians to be pushed out just for asking to see any at all.
Look, I like pretty ladies. But my definition of pretty includes more than what we usually see on television when it comes to representations of women, much less lesbians. And even if an older, unfeminine character was just an NPC, I'd be impressed, because that's not something I see anywhere but movies and television made specifically for lesbians, by lesbians.
My defensive reaction comes largely from not even knowing what your standards are, or why Sera doesn't meet them.
If that's the case then they're probably actually attracted to bisexual women and witnessing them being in a lesbian relationship is a bonus?But that's because they really think it's attainable.
What is a "lesbian look" anyway ?
I have no idea either... lesbians don't have a 'look'.
They're the same as straight women and there are myriad types of straight women as well as gay women.
That's only because, of course, those people don't actually believe they're lesbians. Or at least that's how I can make sense of it. It was always the most bizzare concept to me in the world; two women who aren't - and never will be - attracted to me. That's not titillating at all. But society is weird, I guess.
Yeah, i remember you saying this. But sadly that's how most men view lesbians anyway, as some hard mission to 'turn them straight'.... besides, they're 2 women and straight men like women and that's fine as long as they don't treat my sexuality like a fetish or 'adventure' or something crazy these men have in their mind....
I'm not sure I can agree on Cassandra not being conventional. Really, at most it's the scar and maybe the hair style that does it, even with the sad reality that what's considered conventionally attractive for women is horridly narrow. Aveline had a lot more features associated (right or wrongly) with being "plain".
I don't actually disagree with what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that I think the level of unconventional we'll see for LIs (let's be honest, especially female LIs) is probably not going to stray far from conventional standard. My point isn't that Cassandra is ugly, or overly unconventional. On the contrary, I think every female companion and advisor is quite conventionally attractive, in large part. Definitely more so than a lot of the males. I'm more saying that this trend is likely to continue and that people would probably pitch a fit if it didn't, especially with the LI choices.
My defensive reaction comes largely from not even knowing what your standards are, or why Sera doesn't meet them.
Why is mentioning that there are very very few unfeminine and/or butch lesbians in media an attack on Sera? I don't think she's designed specifically to appeal to menfolk, which is a good start, and I think she's pretty, which is great. But I stand by my statement, no cookies will be handed out by me to creators for including lesbians, while we're still not seeing a diverse representation of lesbians that mirrors real life.
For whatever it's worth, I wasn't even thinking about Bioware when I made my original statement. I'm annoyed by stuff like BBC Sherlock and Hannibal.
Why is mentioning that there are very very few unfeminine and/or butch lesbians in media an attack on Sera? I don't think she's designed specifically to appeal to menfolk, which is a good start, and I think she's pretty, which is great. But I stand by my statement, no cookies will be handed out by me to creators for including lesbians, while we're still not seeing a diverse representation of lesbians that mirrors real life.
For whatever it's worth, I wasn't even thinking about Bioware when I made my original statement. I'm annoyed by stuff like BBC Sherlock and Hannibal.
Then will you please give me a list of your standards, at the very least?
Then will you please give me a list of your standards, at the very least?
I mentioned a few above, I just want to see lesbians who look like real life lesbians. Which is to say, diverse. When I turn on television or watch movies that are made for straight audiences that include lesbians, ninety percent of the time, they're white, thin, conventionally pretty, and sometimes fall into bed with men, for whatever reason. Sometimes these lesbians don't even have scenes with other women. That, to me, is unrealistic, and it's not representation that's worthy of praise.
If you're asking about my standards for a lesbian love interest, that's another story.
Can I have a cookie?
Cause your plan to hold them hostage until conventionally unattractive lesbians are more abundant in Video Games is only going to result in a bunch of stale cookies.
I mentioned a few above, I just want to see lesbians who look like real life lesbians. Which is to say, diverse. When I turn on television or watch movies that are made for straight audiences that include lesbians, ninety percent of the time, they're white, thin, conventionally pretty, and sometimes fall into bed with men, for whatever reason. Sometimes these lesbians don't even have scenes with other women. That, to me, is unrealistic, and it's not representation that's worthy of praise.
If you're asking about my standards for a lesbian love interest, that's another story.
What would those be, then?
Yeah, i remember you saying this. But sadly that's how most men view lesbians anyway, as some hard mission to 'turn them straight'.... besides, they're 2 women and straight men like women and that's fine as long as they don't treat my sexuality like a fetish or 'adventure' or something crazy these men have in their mind....
Keep in mind I'm not totally straight, so I'm probably not the best source of insight into the dudebro psyche. In fact, I'm probably a terrible source of insight into the dudebro psyche.
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