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#7951
Milan92

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Gaider doesn't sound like a happy man, does he? You can have dramatics without the relationship being dysfunctionel. And considering ecerything else going on, that stability might be nice to have.

 

I fail to see how not beign a fan of happy romances in a game makes him an unhappy man. Is George Martin an unhappy man because he kills off most of his characters in his books? 

 

I definitely see the appeal in writing an unhappy relationship story, simply because happy endings can be quite boring after a while.


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#7952
Dean_the_Young

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That's not how personal preferences work.

 

Just to jump in, I believe that when Gaider wrote that he was referring more to romance arcs being boring if they were to happy.

 

I only vaguely and possibly erroniously remember Gaider mentioning it, but I know another DA writer (Sheryl?) went in-depth about it. It was brought up in the context of why Varric wouldn't have made a good LI in DA2.

 

In short, the perspective of the writer was that a good romance arc needs tension and resistance to make the romantic climax, well, a climax. Some obstacle, friction, or problem, or issue needs to be present to be overcome to make the romantic success feel like a success. The problem could be silly (Aveline), or bad past (Fenris), or any number of things, but the romance arc needed something preventing the culmination before it culminates. For a character like Varric in DA2, who was written to be as unobjectional and as absent of issues between him and the player as possible, introducing a romance arc would have meant introducing an issue that would be contrary to the design requirement of the character.

 

The writer made a point, iirc, that this wasn't a realistic requirement IRL, but more of a writing need. Happy romances make boring stories when there's nothing going wrong for love to overcome, and all that.


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#7953
Vapaa

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simply because happy endings can be quite boring after a while.

 

And bad endings can cause apathy after a while.

 

What is this ready-to-think "happy is boring" ? Happy is only boring if your lack the imagination to do it well, sadness is not a byword for "interesting", because it can lead to darkness-induced audience apathy.


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#7954
azarhal

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Iron Bull being a surprising, serious and even tender romantic underneath to boisterous crunchy shell?  Wouldn't surprise me in the least. 

 

I'm pretty sure that this less or more Cassandra. You know, the apparently humorless super serious person who refute that she is a romantic when it is totally true.

 

 



#7955
Milan92

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And bad endings can cause apathy after a while.

 

What is this ready-to-think "happy is boring" ? Happy is only boring if your lack the imagination to do it well, sadness is not a byword for "interesting", because it can lead to darkness-induced audience apathy.

 

I'm definitely a fan of happy endings, but I can see where Gaider was coming from.



#7956
Sylvianus

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I agree. It's like paragon protagonists. They are not necessarily boring, it's all about doing it well too. 



#7957
wright1978

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Just to jump in, I believe that when Gaider wrote that he was referring more to romance arcs being boring if they were to happy.

 

I only vaguely and possibly erroniously remember Gaider mentioning it, but I know another DA writer (Sheryl?) went in-depth about it. It was brought up in the context of why Varric wouldn't have made a good LI in DA2.

 

In short, the perspective of the writer was that a good romance arc needs tension and resistance to make the romantic climax, well, a climax. Some obstacle, friction, or problem, or issue needs to be present to be overcome to make the romantic success feel like a success. The problem could be silly (Aveline), or bad past (Fenris), or any number of things, but the romance arc needed something preventing the culmination before it culminates. For a character like Varric in DA2, who was written to be as unobjectional and as absent of issues between him and the player as possible, introducing a romance arc would have meant introducing an issue that would be contrary to the design requirement of the character.

 

The writer made a point, iirc, that this wasn't a realistic requirement IRL, but more of a writing need. Happy romances make boring stories when there's nothing going wrong for love to overcome, and all that.

OK that makes sense. Overcoming hurdles can be very satisfying. I did very much appreciate that in Isabela romance say, she has to overcome her fears of love.



#7958
Dean_the_Young

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OK that makes sense. Overcoming hurdles can be very satisfying. I did very much appreciate that in Isabela romance say, she has to overcome her fears of love.

It's worth noting that the writer wasn't arguing that all romances need to be written to highly flawed/dysfunctional people with outrageous obstacles. The obstacle being overcome could be quite normal, or even admirable. The STEEEEEVEE Cortez romance arc issue of ME3 was just him moving on. The Traynor 'issue' was that Traynor starts as an uncertain soldier who builds confidence and self-assurance.



#7959
cowoline

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I fail to see how not beign a fan of happy romances in a game makes him an unhappy man. Is George Martin an unhappy man because he kills off most of his characters in his books? 

 

I definitely see the appeal in writing an unhappy relationship story, simply because happy endings can be quite boring after a while.

Easy now... it wasn't serious :)

 

And really guys, that was the part about my post that was worth discussing? Aaaaaawwww :(



#7960
Milan92

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Easy now... it wasn't serious :)

 

Oh, sorry if I came across super cereal ^_^



#7961
Solas

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I always wanted a sassy female dwarven warrior for Varric, but I don't want to keep my hopes up. Was even going to name her Bianca.

that's a bit creepy lol is it not


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#7962
Dean_the_Young

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that's a bit creepy lol is it not

 

Hey, I once made a Couseland named Alistair modeled off of Alistair.



#7963
House Lannister

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I always wanted a sassy female dwarven warrior for Varric, but I don't want to keep my hopes up. Was even going to name her Bianca.

 

Ha, that is awesome. Should definitely make her a rogue though that uses a bow.



#7964
javeart

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Funny as it is, I actually wouldn't be too surprised to see subversion thrown in here and there with Iron Bull (in and out of romance).  It's like Sten.  Big, dour, ultra-serious Sten.  He loved art (paintings as his gifts), and he was enamored with cookies, and he took a very close shine to Dog.  Leliana also catches him once picking flowers and another time playing with a kitten.  

 

Iron Bull being a surprising, serious and even tender romantic underneath to boisterous crunchy shell?  Wouldn't surprise me in the least. 

 

Isn't he great?  :wub:  (I now I'm tiresome with Sten, but I just can let go an opportunity to praise him)

 

Sadly, I don't see IB being anything like Sten. I'd be very happy to be wrong, though

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that this less or more Cassandra. You know, the apparently humorless super serious person who refute that she is a romantic when it is totally true.

 

sounds more likely



#7965
Maria Caliban

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If we're going to argue with the writers and say they're wrong, I'd think we should actually quote them instead of going off vaguely remembered posts.

 

'David says all happy endings are boring' sounds like someone misremembering a post where David talked about why he doesn't always give the audience a happy ending. Though some people are attributing this to Sheryl when I'd expect if someone was going to talk about the Varric romance, it would be Mary.


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#7966
Uirebhiril

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OK that makes sense. Overcoming hurdles can be very satisfying. I did very much appreciate that in Isabela romance say, she has to overcome her fears of love.

 

I'd honestly be happy to see way less of the "overcome my fear of love" hurdle. It's right up there with the story of a dead spouse you have to help them move on from. It's awesome if it really fits the character and their past, but if it happens too much it just makes me wonder if no one can be a functional adult that admits their feelings and doesn't need someone to make their dead spouse go away. If there needs to be an element of tension to make a romance interesting, it could at least have some fresh new baggage like Anders of Fenris brought. Even if that did end up with leaving me hanging for three years or blowing up the Chantry. :P



#7967
wright1978

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I'd honestly be happy to see way less of the "overcome my fear of love" hurdle. It's right up there with the story of a dead spouse you have to help them move on from. It's awesome if it really fits the character and their past, but if it happens too much it just makes me wonder if no one can be a functional adult that admits their feelings and doesn't need someone to make their dead spouse go away. If there needs to be an element of tension to make a romance interesting, it could at least have some fresh new baggage like Anders of Fenris brought. Even if that did end up with leaving me hanging for three years or blowing up the Chantry. :P

 

Well i thought it made perfect sense for Isabela given her character. Agree they shouldn't keep going for the same hurdles and they should fit character but then i can't really say that i've felt a sense of them failing in these areas in the past.



#7968
javeart

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Well i thought it made perfect sense for Isabela given her character. Agree they shouldn't keep going for the same hurdles and they should fit character but then i can't really say that i've felt a sense of them failing in these areas in the past.

 

I guess that depends on how you see the character... The way I see it, her romance arc didn't need that, though I can understand it if someone think it does, and it fits her.

 

We've already had that with Zevran anyway (which I also hink would be fine without it), so a third time may be a little too much, would'n it? 

 

Anyway, that kind of romantic plot seems to be a exclusive of promiscuos rogues, and I don't see Sera, Cole or Varric fitting in, so I think we might be safe   :P I woudn't rule out the possibilty that they tried on IB... though I see more likely for him the Qun conflict some people have brought up



#7969
Uirebhiril

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I guess that depends on how you see the character... The way I see it, her romance arc didn't need that, though I can understand it if someone think it does, and it fits her.

 

We've already had that with Zevran anyway (which I also hink would be fine without it), so a third time may be a little too much, would'n it? 

 

 

Wasn't the same true for Morrigan? She had to overcome her fears of love, etc. etc.

 

Zevran was just a double whammy. I'm afraid of love AND I killed my girlfriend! I can't help but think they could have said it was a random stranger they tortured to death, or a male Crow that he wasn't involved with and it would have at least felt that much more "new" to me. Struggle of conscience making him rethink his ways and feelings that had nothing to do with romantic interest and so on.

 

And of course, in a video game we can be fine with "loving" and "healing" the poor character that killed their past love, but just how many of us would get involved with a guy that did time for murdering his wife? Cause I darn well know you could count me the hell out. :P


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#7970
Nocte ad Mortem

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Just one time I would love to see a promiscuous character that just likes sex and doesn't have trust issues or fear of commitment/actual intimacy. Can it not just be that they like sex and haven't met anyone they want something longterm with yet? Why does it always have to be part of a character flaw? I just don't like the implication that people can't just have sex often because they like sex. They could have other flaws not related to their sex lives.   


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#7971
wright1978

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Just one time I would love to see a promiscuous character that just likes sex and doesn't have trust issues or fear of commitment/actual intimacy. Can it not just be that they like sex and haven't met anyone they want something longterm with yet? Why does it always have to be part of a character flaw? I just don't like the implication that people can't just have sex often because they like sex. They could have other flaws not related to their sex lives.   

 

Well Isabela does unashamedly like sex both before and after. It certainly isn't viewed as a character flaw in the game. I don't see the issue with using intimacy/commitment issues as the hurdle in her case personally.



#7972
zestalyn

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Well Isabela does unashamedly like sex both before and after. It certainly isn't viewed as a character flaw in the game. I don't see the issue with using intimacy/commitment issues as the hurdle in her case personally.


Isabela outright says she is impartial to intimacy because of her childhood, and scoffs at the idea of an actual relationship upon first sleeping with Hawke. That sounds like a "overcome my fear of love" hurdle to me. I don't see trust issues against love/intimacy as a pernicious flaw in character, but simply a personal weakness they have. However, at this point that 'weakness' has kind of become a cliche since Bioware applied that to their romanceable characters multiple times. Having more of it in DAI would be a bit predictable from using the same old character tripes. 



#7973
Guest_Faerunner_*

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I admit I've rarely written happy relationships (though is has been a while since I last wrote) people that help me write suck me back into tragic romances but stable fun ones are nice as well though I've only got maybe two couples I've written in happyish relationships. While they can be fun to write they are not fun to go through the tragic ones I mean.

 

Agreed it can be done and done well one of my favorite book series the main relationship is happy and supportive and I don't get tired of reading about them and I love it when they interact with one another, guess you need a specific mindset for it, I'm not sure.

 

Thank you my mom really deserves it the last relationship she was in brought out the worst in them both so I'm happy she's with her current boyfriend they're very happy together and whenever I visit they always joke with eachother and make up quickly after fights it's pretty adorable to me and I'd be lying if I said it didn't set a bar for me in what I'd like a relationship for myself to be like :)

 

Eh, I don't find tragic relationships fun. I've witnessed and experienced enough dysfunctional (and even abusive) relationships growing up that that's not what I want to write about, or even see for that matter. Sorry, that's not to say my couples don't have problems at all. Of course I try to keep the relationship realistic by giving them problems and challenges, having them fight and disagree, and have them more snap or lash out the way most real people would when under the same stresses, etc.

 

I just don't like introducing tragedy, drama, and angst for its own sake. It's a means to an end for the story at large, or to create the character development they need, or to ultimately bring them closer together, not drive them apart for the sake of enjoying their fighting, angst, tears, etc.

 

There are ways to have tension in a relationship - or surrounding a relationship - without making it tragic or affecting the fundamental dynamic between characters. 

Edit: For example, characters could have different goals in life that pull them in different directions. There could be a difference in race, or culture. None of these things have to lead to a sad ending for the characters. 

 

I agree. I'm not saying fictional couples always have to be perfectly happy. That they should never argue, disagree, etc. No, because that's how real people interact, and it really would be boring otherwise if they never had any problems or challenges to overcome. I just don't think soap opera sadness or some new contrived Deu Angst Machina is the solution.

 

Like, I find it funny that Gaider says happy couples are boring when DA2 includes a very interesting and fun one. I thought Aveline's and Guardsman Donnic's relationship was very sweet, funny, and interesting without it being mental hospital dysfunctional like all of Hawke's relationships. Aveline's hilarious attempt at wooing Donnic came from how quirky she is as a character, not how creatively angsty the writers thought they could make the situation. I like how when they get together, other characters tease her about being able to picture them having a whole brood of red-heads able to lift a cow. Or how she gets offended that Donnic goes to Fenris' mansion to play cards once a week but they didn't invite her, and they say they would have but she's just so... competitive. And how they disavow all gambling in Fenris' mansion. O:-)

 

To me, what makes a couple interesting is how interesting they are as characters, and how their little quirks and whatnot play off each other.

 

Like you said, I just don't think relationships should have to be made soap opera tragic or dysfunctional just to be interesting.

 

Unfortunately, happy relationships (in media settings) are boring. It is rare that you see a completely happy relationship throughout an entire movie/book/series. Usually it starts out happy then turns bad (possibly working out in the end), or starts out bad and works it way to happy. If drama did not lead to an interesting romances we were actually see more of them, not less.

 

But Gaider is not a mindless consumer that just watches fictional relationships that other people wrote. He's a writer that creates them too. Like I said, there seems to be this common belief that fictional relationships either have to be soap opera tragic, dramatic, or dysfunctional just to be interesting, or they're completely generic and boring and let's fast-forward through the smiles, teasing, and playfulness to get to the angst, melodrama, tears, etc.

 

Besides, like I said, I'm not saying couples have to be completely happy without problems. But far too often writers create this false dichotomy that a relationship has to be either generically boring and lovely, or it has to have some grand, dramatic, contrived sweeping tragic situation to be interesting. Of course a happy (or even functional) relationships will come out bland and boring if you go in with that attitude. And far too many writers do.


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#7974
Tamyn

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Zevran was just a double whammy. I'm afraid of love AND I killed my girlfriend! I can't help but think they could have said it was a random stranger they tortured to death, or a male Crow that he wasn't involved with and it would have at least felt that much more "new" to me. Struggle of conscience making him rethink his ways and feelings that had nothing to do with romantic interest and so on.

 

And of course, in a video game we can be fine with "loving" and "healing" the poor character that killed their past love, but just how many of us would get involved with a guy that did time for murdering his wife? Cause I darn well know you could count me the hell out. :P

 

Technically Zevran didn't kill his girlfriend, but he believed his best friend over her when the friend said she was a traitor, and he let the friend kill her. So he was an accessory. :P



#7975
pallascedar

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I'm definitely a fan of happy endings, but I can see where Gaider was coming from.


Just gonna point out that Fenris' romance had a pretty damn happy ending. Just had a lot of problems throughout the arc.
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