19658 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Lob you keep saying this like she actually knows anything. Pretty sure if she knew what the heck the thing would do she'd bring it up as a counterpoint to Hawke. She never does so. Someone knowing more than someone about something else hardly makes them knowledgable on the subject. She admits it's fragments of lore.

 

Merrill has studied lore on the subject and acquired knowledge directly from the shard. She speaks as someone informed on the subject because she committed the research into understanding it (which is how she's able to build one from a single shard).

 

Saying "well you don't know anything about the technology!" isn't a strong counterpoint when you know about the things she's using to fuel said technology (demons and bloodmagic which are bad ideas 99% of the time and you've seen her fall under the thrall of a pride demon before. Ironically the same demon she's dealing with now) and she doesn't know enough about the tech to say what it'll even do.

 

Merrill learned blood magic to cleanse the shard, as she admits multiple times; she built the Eluvian from her own research. Also, you're citing a quest where all the companions but Anders are railroaded into betraying Hawke after a few seconds of dialogue.

[Xilizhra]

She doesn't know that.

 

She's trying to fix something and doesn't know what it does or even how it'll help. This is my issue. This has always been my issue. And she's relying on a demon's aid to do this. There's plenty wrong with what she's doing. You don't say "this'll help." while not knowing what the hell X does.

 

If she had said that to Hawke yeah I'd have a harder time rivaling her (though I probably still would based on the fact that she could've done that on the wounded coast where if worst came to worst the only person who's face it could've blown up in would've been her on.)

Actually, she does mention that they were used to communicate across the elven empire.

 

 

By simply not being honest about what focusing on the mirror did "for her". 

What are you even talking about? Literally the only relevant line is "Very well, just be careful with it."

[Ryzaki]

Merrill has studied lore on the subject and acquired knowledge directly from the shard. She speaks as someone informed on the subject because she committed the research into understanding it (which is how she's able to build one from a single shard).

 

 

Merrill learned blood magic to cleanse the shard, as she admits multiple times; she built the Eluvian from her own research. Also, you're citing a quest where all the companions but Anders are railroaded into betraying Hawke after a few seconds of dialogue.

 

You keep saying this like it makes a difference. She doesn't even know what the thing does. She doesn't admit that much. I know more about nucleur power plants than someone from 1774. That does not make me qualified to create one. I can build a computer that doesn't make me qualified to make all the bits that goes into one.

 

I didn't  say she didn't? Just 99% of the time in game dealing with demons and using bloodmagic blows up in people's face. Which it does. Because it shows that she lacked the will to resist a demon when push came to shove! (And no I wouldn't trust Fenris dealing with a demon either. But he's smart enough to realize it's a terrible idea.)

[Ryzaki]

Actually, she does mention that they were used to communicate across the elven empire.

 

 

What are you even talking about? Literally the only relevant line is "Very well, just be careful with it."

 

Can you give a link cause I missed that.

 

(Also even with communication. She's going to help her people with what's essentially one part of a phone?)
 

[draken-heart]

Actually, she does mention that they were used to communicate across the elven empire.

 

 

What are you even talking about? Literally the only relevant line is "Very well, just be careful with it."

 

And yet, it takes merrill over 6 years to get to the point where she ADMITS she needs help, even with Hawke's "friendship", yet it takes Morrigan, a human mage with no dalish in her, less than a  year, maybe two tops, to not only  get one working, but also find out what they do. Seems like Merrill actually was being a teenager, and friendship was simply letting her be that.

[TheJediSaint]

And yet, it takes merrill over 6 years to get to the point where she ADMITS she needs help, even with Hawke's "friendship", yet it takes Morrigan, a human mage with no dalish in her, less than a  year, maybe two tops, to not only  get one working, but also find out what they do. Seems like Merrill actually was being a teenager, and friendship was simply letting her be that.

 

Helps when you have Flemeth's cheat-sheet.

[Ryzaki]

Helps when you have Flemeth's cheat-sheet.

 

Morrigan was also smart enough to know better than to deal with a demon. Hell Morrigan's smart enough not to give it the chance to talk!

[draken-heart]

Helps when you have Flemeth's cheat-sheet.

 

Did flemeth even have knowledge on that? she had to get a book from the Dalish to even get one.

 

When it comes down to it, both paths are about Merrill realizing that what she was doing was dumb. Friendship was simply helping her blind herself until she sees the death of her "mommy"/mentor.

[LobselVith8]

Yeah when pretty much a good faction of dalish in every game we've seen sneers Shem and flat ears you're not going to get me not to use that behavior as a baseline. That's what the majority of them we've seen do.

 

Are you suggesting that there's not levels of racism? All racism isn't as simple as "I HATE ALL YOUR KIND GO DIE IN A FIRE."

 

I'm pointing out the fallacy of your insinuation that most Dalish are like that, when we know this isn't the case. Mithra has no problem letting you enter as long as you don't give her any problems and simply tell her you're a Warden, Lanaya is polite despite what humans did to her parents and her, Ellora is polite and appretiative if you assist her in finding out what's wrong with the halla, Cammen is shy but not bigoted, Gheyna is polite, Athras points out that some are on edge because of the werewolf attacks but he's also nice to the protagonist, and Deygan appreciates that you rescued him.

 

Even the storyteller who the player encounters the most hostility from, Sarel, is mainly abrasive towards the protagonist because he just lost his wife to the werewolves. And that's not even counting the positive reception the Warden-Commander sees from Velanna's clan when they see she's actually in the company of humans.

[TheJediSaint]

Did flemeth even have knowledge on that? she had to get a book from the Dalish to even get one.

 

I'd say there's a safe bet that Flemeth had applicable knowledge regarding Eluvians.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Morrigan was also smart enough to know better than to deal with a demon. Hell Morrigan's smart enough not to give it the chance to talk!

We have even less concept of how safe the things Morrigan gets up to are than dealing with demons, though. lol

 

I mean, I like Morrigan, but I don't know if completing Flemeth's plans and having an OGB is more safe than dealing with a pride demon. I've killed a bunch of pride demons. Flemeth and Old Gods on the other hand...   

[Ryzaki]

I'm pointing out the fallacy of your insinuation that most Dalish are like that, when we know this isn't the case. Mithra has no problem letting you enter as long as you don't give her any problems and simply tell her you're a Warden, Lanaya is polite despite what humans did to her parents and her, Ellora is polite and appretiative if you assist her in finding out what's wrong with the halla, Cammen is shy but not bigoted, Gheyna is polite, Athras points out that some are on edge because of the werewolf attacks but he's also nice to the protagonist, and Deygan appreciates that you rescued him.

 

Even the storyteller who the player encounters the most hostility from, Sarel, is mainly abrasive towards the protagonist because he just lost his wife to the werewolves. And that's not even counting the positive reception the Warden-Commander sees from Velanna's clan when they see she's actually in the company of humans.

 

Mithra has no problems letting you in with a barrage of shem insults as long as you admit to being part of a highly regarded by every species (even the Qunari) group. (Otherwise you strong arm her into it. She apparently has some self preservation instincts). You don't say? Lanaya was a CE born and was shown distrust by the dalish when she got there. Ellora yes I'll give you. Cammen and Gheyna too. Athras is also bristly if you're human and really? Racism isn't always extreme and overt. It's more of Leliana's type of racism "You see us as different" than hurr durr you're all vile (though the dalish does have some of the latter).

 

I'll have to give you Velanna since I just kill her. (also if you're abrasion means you start slurring to someone about their race you're a bit racist. If you get mad at a black person and the first word out your mouth is n**** you might want to do some self reflection).

[LobselVith8]

And yet, it takes merrill over 6 years to get to the point where she ADMITS she needs help, even with Hawke's "friendship", yet it takes Morrigan, a human mage with no dalish in her, less than a  year, maybe two tops, to not only  get one working, but also find out what they do. Seems like Merrill actually was being a teenager, and friendship was simply letting her be that.

 

Morrigan isn't building an Eluvian from a single shard like Merrill is, and she also requires a Dalish tome to activate the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes. You're comparing apples and oranges here.

[Amirit]

Gaider wrote 2 characters and 2 romances: Cassandra and Dorian. He said that after he got his hand on Cassandra.

 

Helper left end of July last year and Gaider re-wrote Cassandra in the months after that (starting in August). The re-write could be because they changed stuff in the narrative that required her to be rewritten (in part) or after review it was decided that the exiting Cassandra didn't really fit what they needed (it happened to Varric for DA2).

 

Thank you! Was so sure her work was completely finished and it was actually Cullen - did not even consider anything else.

[draken-heart]

Only because people treat her like a teenager first by constantly shutting her down, refusing to hear her out, assuming she doesn't know what she's doing or talking about even when she explains, sabotaging her efforts, refusing to lend assistance and then accuse her of being dangerous, reckless, irrational, etc. for going ahead and doing so without their assistance.

 

Because, of course, accusers are always right. People looking down, talking down, and treating her like a child that doesn't know what she's doing automatically makes them right and her wrong. People telling her that the mirror is dangerous based on reasons she's already disprove (mirror dangerous because of taint becomes moot when the taint is gone, her research showing the technology it could bring being beneficial instead of dangerous, etc.) means they must be right and she is wrong. Her failing to just blindly agree with them and do what they think she should do makes her the irrational one that blindly runs into danger, not them creating danger that wouldn't have been there by refusing to listen, learn, research, or study the thing they arbitrarily decided was dangerous for faulty reasons at best.

 

Take her to the fade, she betrays you, all the while saying she knows what she is doing. She is unable to get the Eluvian working despite years of research. What does that tell you?

[Ryzaki]

We have even less concept of how safe the things Morrigan gets up to are than dealing with demons, though. lol

 

I mean, I like Morrigan, but I don't know if completing Flemeth's plans and having an OGB is more safe than dealing with a pride demon. I've killed a bunch of pride demons. Flemeth and Old Gods on the other hand...   

 

XD true.

 

I don't think Morrigan's foolish enough to deal with someone that'd try to endanger her in specific if nothing else. Dangerous for other people? Yeah probably. For herself? I don't see it unless she knows she's getting something worth the risk.
 

[LobselVith8]

You keep saying this like it makes a difference. She doesn't even know what the thing does. She doesn't admit that much. I know more about nucleur power plants than someone from 1774. That does not make me qualified to create one. I can build a computer that doesn't make me qualified to make all the bits that goes into one.

 

Merrill does provide some information about the Eluvians, and even points out it was used for communication. You may dislike Merrill, but that doesn't change the fact that she pursued a course of action she felt would benefit the People.

 

I didn't  say she didn't? Just 99% of the time in game dealing with demons and using bloodmagic blows up in people's face. Which it does. Because it shows that she lacked the will to resist a demon when push came to shove! (And no I wouldn't trust Fenris dealing with a demon either. But he's smart enough to realize it's a terrible idea.)

 

Merrill doesn't make a deal with Audacity, she learned blood magic and refuses to release it from it's prison. As for spirits, Merrill says the protagonist can gather information from spirits without making a deal with them, which is precisely what Hawke can do with the Profane Abomination (to learn more about the primeval thaig) and Torpor (to discover that two spirits are vying for control of Feynriel); she also stresses that spirits are dangerous. You can gather information and defeat both the Profane Abomination and Torpor, with approval from Merrill.

[TheJediSaint]

XD true.

 

I don't think Morrigan's foolish enough to deal with someone that'd try to endanger her in specific if nothing else. Dangerous for other people? Yeah probably. For herself? I don't see it unless she knows she's getting something worth the risk.
 

 

I think it just boils down to that Morrigan had more to work with than Merrill.  Morrigan was raised and trained by Flemeth, and had her Grimoire for reference.  Merrill on the other hand only had the patchwork knowledge of old elven lore either passed down from Maretheri or pieced together by herself.

[draken-heart]

Merrill does provide some information about the Eluvians, and even points out it was used for communication. You may dislike Merrill, but that doesn't change the fact that she pursued a course of action she felt would benefit the People.

And morrigan found out they were portals.

[In Exile]

It's alright. I wasn't offended or anything. 

 

I think that a lot of it is a "between the lines" view of your characters wants and how Anders's actions effect that. I did the friendmance path and I don't remember any lines about him not trusting me. He talks about not telling you to protect you at the end. He makes it sound like he chose to go ahead without you so that you wouldn't be held accountable for the incident, since he seems to expect execution for himself. 

 

My character agreed with the morality behind blowing up the chantry (and I don't really want to get into debating the possible true morality of it so much) on the basis that the Chantry was standing in the way of mage freedom by keeping the situation from changing. Because the Chantry had power in the situation, my character saw it as a fair target. A decade had passed since you met Anders and he'd been living with you for years at this point, so I assume he would know if you would support the decision he made. If you supported it, then the "manipulation and lies" outlook makes no sense. There'd be no reason to manipulate or lie to a person that constantly supported your choices. If you're someone that always acted in support of the mages and always vocalized agreement with Anders, then his claim that he wanted to protect you makes more sense than the idea that he was lying and manipulating you. 

 

So, when you strip out the need for lying and manipulating and the disagreement with what he did, you're just left with the fact that he decided to put your safety above his own without giving you a choice in the matter. In a lot of cases, this is actually a selfish act, but it's something that I can live with and hope to balance in time. I guess another viewpoint for the even less morally driven is that he stole your glory by taking credit for the big event, but that's not something that bothers me, personally.

 

I have to disagree with you on the distinction you draw in terms of agreeing with the morality of Anders' actions. If you don't agree with him (e.g. if you agree with freedom for mages, but not nuking the Chantry), then what Anders does is absolutely monstrous, tricking you into enabling him to murder what you see as innocents. There aren't words to describe that, IMO. But I wasn't thinking about this in terms of disagreeing with his choices: I was thinking about it from the POV of someone who would agree with Anders, to be as charitable as possible.

 

Even if you agree with Anders, what he does is horrible and manipulative. He tells Hawke, the man who he ostensibly loves, that he's found a cure to the presence that has been torturing him for years. You've seen Anders - even on the friendship path - suffer from his merger with Justice, and he presents to you a plan to be free. He asks you to trust him if you voice suspicion, playing off your love and connection. In the end, he lies to you. He manipulates you, based on your feelings. All of this, to me, is something that kills a relationship dead.

 

The protection argument is absurd. Who exactly is he protecting you from? The templars? If you're pro-mage, they have absolutely no reason to believe you're innocent. The truth is you helped Anders gather the ingredients and you personally distracted the Grand Cleric for him to execute his plot. Protesting that you didn't know about is futile. Who else is there to protect you from?

 

What Anders did was steal your choice away from you, by playing off your feelings. It's really hard, IMO, to find anything more a fundamental betrayal of a relationship than what we did. 

 

The fact that you can't really address this in-game, IMO, is a failing. Certainly if future romances follow the sort of betrayal that Anders inflicted, the game has to be able to allow the player to respond better to what happened. 

[AresKeith]

How about that romance?

[Xilizhra]

Can you give a link cause I missed that.

 

(Also even with communication. She's going to help her people with what's essentially one part of a phone?)
 

I might have been misremembering it slightly. It was in the last game when it was confirmed, in the Dalish origin story: Duncan's the one to tell it, but Merrill was there. If she hadn't known beforehand, she certainly knows by the time of DA2.

 

 

I'm having difficulty at the moment finding the friendship quest beginning for Mirror Image to double-check. Given that Merrill did know what the Eluvians did, it'd be quite odd if she didn't mention it to Hawke.

 

 

And yet, it takes merrill over 6 years to get to the point where she ADMITS she needs help, even with Hawke's "friendship", yet it takes Morrigan, a human mage with no dalish in her, less than a  year, maybe two tops, to not only  get one working, but also find out what they do. Seems like Merrill actually was being a teenager, and friendship was simply letting her be that.

She only needs help to get the thing to switch on; she successfully rebuilds it herself. And Morrigan stole books stolen by the Circle to confirm things; the Dalish aren't exactly known for having all of their old lore at their fingertips, after all.