19658 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

That's looking at it from a highly sensitive viewpoint. "These races could send the wrong message".

 

Is it Bioware's fault for portraying prejudice, or is it the player's fault for reading into it too deeply and receiving messages that Bioware never sent to begin with?

 

Could well be. I'm hardly infallible. I could easily be reading too much into this. 

 

But it is a very sensitive topic for me due to my personal history with the subject matter(that being interracial relationships). 

 

So when Bioware(or anyone, really) sends the message that it's ok to let race be a barrier for love, yea, it gives me an uneasy feeling.

[fiveforchaos]

 

 

Class restriction is something that could be considered as well, though to my knowledge we don't.  If we did, it'd probably only apply to mages since mages are very, very different than anything we have in reality.  There's no comparison.

You know I can actually imagine a scenario in which one might class gate a rogue as well. They're style of fighting can get pretty underhanded at times, a particularly honorable fighter might not approve. I remember winning the provings as a Dwarf Noble by stunning a guy and kicking him in the balls several times, not exactly what one expects of a prince. Just like some might stereotype mages as being too inclined to become possessed by demons to be romanceable, others might stereotype rogues as being too inclined to stab people in the back to be romanceable.

[LilyasAvalon]

Can understand why people are seeing this as racist. Don't agree with them, but agree it does have mildly racist undertones.
 

Though I still don't think it'll be that big a deal.

[Former_Fiend]

That's perfectly understandable.

 

But again, feelings of uneasiness or discomfort with what is portrayed doesn't mean Bioware is sending the wrong message. Hell, the portrayal of bigotry or prejudice should make you feel uncomfortable. That's the entire purpose of why many authors, directors, what have you have made works about the issues of bigotry in our society. It's to make people feel uncomfortable and want something better.

 

The way I see it, if Bioware's portraying it negatively and getting a negative reaction, then they're doing something right.

 

Which ties in with that worse case scenario talk I mentioned; worse case scenario is they aren't portraying it negatively.

 

Though I could be wrong about that and maybe it might be intended as a character flaw for whatever individuals have race gating attached to their romance. 

[Panda]

I've touched on this a lot in this thread, so I figure I'll keep on beating my drum until it starts to resemble a dead horse.

 

I, for one, am not accusing Bioware or anyone at Bioware of being intentionally racist with the race restriction decision. I even understand the practicalities of it.

 

But I do think the concept does carry some inherently racist undertones, because it's sending the message that for whatever reason, interracial relationships aren't ok. Or at least, it could be perceived as sending that message. 

 

These races might be fictional, but they're used for analogues for real world cultures, and they have often been used as a tool to represent the affects of racism, oppression, segregation, and xenophobia. I think it's sending the wrong message when you(meaning Bioware, in this case), use these fictional races for these purposes and then turn around and say that it's perfectly fine to categorically and adamantly shut down any possibility of love and romance with someone based on their race. 

 

Now, of course, these thoughts are based on a lot of assumptions that may prove false; I haven't been shy about the fact that I'm talking worst case scenario here. I am very much against the idea in whatever form it takes, but I admit I may be wrong about it's implementation and it may not be nearly as bad as I fear it is. But on the pure concept stage, these are my thoughts on it.

 

I think that races are used there differently as in real world. Humans in Thedas are still different in different places of Thedas, so they are the races in the real world. Isabela is Rivaini and has darker skin, people from Ferelden tend to have look that is unique to Ferelden etc. Qunari, Dwarf and Qunari aren't race similar sense as humans are in IRL.

 

For example if you think humans as Tigers. Tigers look different by places they have born and grow up in. There is Chinese tiger, Indian tiger, Siperian tiger. These are races of tigers, they are still tigers as humans are humans but they have developed different physical aspects to adapt to live in place they are living. Siperian tiger for example has lives in snowy and cold areas when Indian tiger in much warmer ones. So these tigers look slighty different. They are from different races like humans are.

 

Then Tiger can have kittens with other large cat animals as well like Lions. This is very unlikely though, they look much more different and have different customs. Tigers live alone, Lions live together. However it's possible, they aren't that far from each other. I'd say these Tigers and Lions are like races in Thedas, like elf and qunari.

 

Well this is just my take how I see it. Being with other race in Thedas is more strect than being with other race in the IRL since we are after all, all humans here and not from another humanoid species.

[Basement Cat]

If it's a villainous or "bad" character acting out the prejudice, then that's because it's their character. One can't get mad at the bad guys for doing things bad guys do.

Especially since we get to kill the bad guys.

[The Elder King]

I understand Former Fiend's opinion. It's a very delicate topic, and I'm curious to see how it'll be implemented. Though it should be noted that interracial relationships will be present: Allan confirmed that a dwarf will have non-dwarves romances, and qunari (since otherwise they'll be stuck with just IB), will probably have them as well.
Granted, there's the fact that some companions/advisors will be restricted for certain races. We'll have to wait and see what will happen.

[Former_Fiend]

If it's a villainous or "bad" character acting out the prejudice, then that's because it's their character. One can't get mad at the bad guys for doing things bad guys do.

 

Except I'm expecting this behavior to be coming from our companions, being that they're going to be the bulk of our romance options.

 

Now, historically speaking, Dragon Age companions have hardly been saints, but generally speaking we are supposed to root for them on some level. And honestly, this particular group is shaping up to be the least dysfunctional & morally flawed yet. 

 

 

I understand Former Fiend's opinion. It's a very delicate topic, and I'm curious to see how it'll be implemented. Though it should be noted that interracial relationships will be present: Allan confirmed that a dwarf will have non-dwarves romances, and qunari (since otherwise they'll be stuck with just IB), will probably have them as well.
Granted, there's the fact that some companions/advisors will be restricted for certain races. We'll have to wait and see what will happen.

 

That bit of confirmation is one of the reasons I'm not being as vehement in this thread as I was in the previous one. That it isn't being done unilaterally across the board tells me that whatever comes, Bioware is not going to be sending the message(regardless of intention) that everyone needs to stick to their own kind.

 

It's just something I'd rather not be included at all. On top of my personal issues with the topic, it's also a major limit on player choice, which I am always strongly opposed to.

[ladyoflate]

I've touched on this a lot in this thread, so I figure I'll keep on beating my drum until it starts to resemble a dead horse.

 

I, for one, am not accusing Bioware or anyone at Bioware of being intentionally racist with the race restriction decision. I even understand the practicalities of it.

 

But I do think the concept does carry some inherently racist undertones, because it's sending the message that for whatever reason, interracial relationships aren't ok. Or at least, it could be perceived as sending that message. 

 

These races might be fictional, but they're used for analogues for real world cultures, and they have often been used as a tool to represent the affects of racism, oppression, segregation, and xenophobia. I think it's sending the wrong message when you(meaning Bioware, in this case), use these fictional races for these purposes and then turn around and say that it's perfectly fine to categorically and adamantly shut down any possibility of love and romance with someone based on their race. 

 

Now, of course, these thoughts are based on a lot of assumptions that may prove false; I haven't been shy about the fact that I'm talking worst case scenario here. I am very much against the idea in whatever form it takes, but I admit I may be wrong about it's implementation and it may not be nearly as bad as I fear it is. But on the pure concept stage, these are my thoughts on it.

 

This can't be said enough. You can't take the most obvious window-dressing and attractive bits of history from real-world cultures, apply them to a slew of fantasy species, and then act like we're the weird ones when we get concerned about said fantasy species getting the short in of the stick in racially-focused manners. You can't cry 'it's not racist, it's fiction!' when your fiction is very very clearly inspired by real-world events and analogues. Your fiction does not exist in a Perfect Artistic Vacuum away from culture, such a vacuum does not exist. You say you care about the representation of real world people, but you used real world people as a base for your fictional creatures and you didn't move those fictional creatures very far away at all from the real people. So you have to care about the representation of the fictional creatures, or you have to stop taking inspiration from real people.

 

I realize technical limitations are a thing and I accept that, but sex scenes and the like should have been dropped before the consideration of, well, real people was dropped. And if we're supposed to accept in-universe racism as an ignorable personality quirk for a character we're overall expected to like (since they are a companion and an LI, after all), then you should have perhaps given the implications of this more thorough consideration.

[Maria Caliban]

And honestly, this particular group is shaping up to be the least dysfunctional & morally flawed yet.

This sentence amuses me to no end.

[Kimarous]

He's got a point.

 

Other than Sera and her stereotypical thieving, everyone else seems to be your typical banded-together heroes.

 

Really? If we translate "morally-flawed" into "internal moral struggles", we have those in abundance. Iron Bull struggling with his Qun past versus his current lifestyle, Vivienne adjusting to life without a defined Circle, Cassandra dealing with the Chantry being fractured all to heck (Leliana and Cullen probably having the same issues), Dorian dealing with the stigma Tevinter has long since developed, Solas and all the baggage apostates carry...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't associate the term "morally-flawed" with "internal struggle". They're two entirely different things to me.

Yeah, Danarius for example was morally flawed but had no internal struggle. 

[Kimarous]

I don't associate the term "morally-flawed" with "internal struggle". They're two entirely different things to me.

 

Well, "dysfunctional", then. It was mentioned in the post as well.

[LilyasAvalon]

We're just going to ignore Cole, aren't we? :<

 

I mean. Blood magic using, murdering spirit?

 

nah, bro. tots not morally flawed.

[Kimarous]

We're just going to ignore Cole, aren't we? :<

 

I mean. Blood magic using, murdering spirit?

 

nah, bro. tots not morally flawed.

 

It's easy to forget about the guy when you haven't read the book he hails from.

[LilyasAvalon]

It's easy to forget about the guy when you haven't read the book he hails from.

 

That's what the wiki is for. :3

[fiveforchaos]

 

He's got a point.

 

Other than Sera and her stereotypical thieving, everyone else seems to be your typical banded-together heroes.

There has been a lot of "saving the innocent" getting thrown around, but I suspect some of the characters' more morally gray aspects run into serious spoiler territory. Dorian and Iron Bull, for example, might as well have giant banners hanging over their heads that say "we did some stuff in our past that we're really really not proud of". Viv, seems like she can be rather cruel at times. And Cole's all kinds of screwed up.

 

Also they may be coming off as initially heroic because of all the ways the game can mess with them. Apparently Leliana was so dark in that demo because the specific path you chose left her with some serious PTSD. 

 

As for the racism issue, I'd say that any race gating with elves and humans could be problematic depending on how it's handled, considering the history those two races have. But we're not even sure if dwarves and qunari can interbreed with other races, which complicates matters somewhat, on a biological level.