19658 réponses à ce sujet

[godModeAlpha]

The point is often more "you were given some choice" compared to "this is your option and I hope you like it."

A brothel is a sexual encounter, not a romance.

Agree, had it been a romance, then No currency or favors would be exchanged

[Ianamus]

But that's my point.  That's exactly what's been happening for decades in the video game industry and it gave us ZERO options.  Until Bioware starting to work against it and that's the only reason  why you even have options that you go to play as a kid.  Had Bioware not decided that they have to start putting gay and lesbian options in the games, we'd have zero options anywhere.  No one else had stepped up to do it and there's clearly a rabid fan base for it.  This is why it's so important that Bioware continues to think about us overtly, otherwise, we'd have nothing.  Bioware making sure that we continue to have options and, if possible, not always the least amount of options, is the best thing that we can hope for until the industry, as a whole, actually begins to take notice.  It's changing, but it's happening so slowly that we need an ally like Bioware to challenge other devs by being different.

 

They have made two homosexual companions and given gay players at least two options already, that's already a challenge. If they give straight players an extra option instead it wouldn't change that. Whoever gets the extra options Inquisition will be one of the best games for LGBT representation in a long time. 

[SnakeCode]

Pre EC endings were terrible imo. They are still disappointing now, but nowhere near as bad as they were pre-EC. I actually enjoyed my last playthrough of ME3, even the ending.

[In Exile]

Me either.

 

I'm glad they didn't do that with the other Liara scenes in ME2 DLC and ME3.  

My headcannon is that Shepard has a fetish.

[jellobell]

Your memory is correct.  I played the games for the first time about 6 weeks ago, and Liara was the romance for the first time around.  They definitely showed more action with Liara.  The part that threw me off was the end.  Shep fully dressed, sitting off to the side, and while it's subtle, there's no doubt that Liara is still nude.  

 

They did that with Kaidan and Ash too iirc. The scene always ends with your LI lying naked in bed with a clothed Shepard leaning on the wall to the side (and then Joker gets on the comm and ruins the moment). Guess Shepard wasn't into cuddling.

[Ianamus]

Then I think your perspective still needs to grow.  They are heterosexual love interests for the protagonist of video games.  And they are everywhere.

 

They may not be a choice that the player can make, but that doesn't mean they are exempt from contributing to "heterosexuals get the love stories, others do not" images.

 

They are love interests, but I don't think "love interest" is the same as "romance option". To me a romance option has to be initiated by the player, whereas a love interest can be written into a story. 

 

And as I said earlier, the way to combat heteronormativity with love interests and fixed relationships is to write stories with fixed homosexual protagonists and relationships. Romance options don't really combat it because they can be avoided if the player does not choose to romance them. 

[daveliam]

They have made two homosexual companions and given gay players at least two options already, that's already a challenge. If they give straight players an extra option instead it wouldn't change that. Whoever gets the extra options Inquisition will be one of the best games for LGBT representation in a long time. 

 

Yes, that's my exact point.  The "best game for LGBT representation" puts us even with everyone else.  That's the problem.  So if there are more options, there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't be options for LGBT people, just like there's no reason why it couldn't be for straight people.  I'm not saying that we have to have more options.  I'm saying that we've never had more options ever and someone might be getting more options, so it might as well be us for once.

[godModeAlpha]

And as I said earlier, the way to combat heteronormativity with love interests is to write stories with fixed homosexual protagonists and relationships. Romance options don't really combat it because they can be avoided if the player does not choose to romance them.

BioWare already implement this to an extent, we can create our own characters and choose our orientation in the game.

I for one am not ready to give up the freedom of creating my unique character for a generic one, straight of gay.

[Allan Schumacher]

Well, randomly choose is the approach ignoring everything else, focusing just on LI numbers. The more grounded one is that they give the characters sexualities when they are first created and then assign the extra LI's based on those characters pre-determined sexualities, without worrying about which demographic gets them as a result. 

 

Ideally we're picking the romance options because they are interesting, and we're at a point in society where we're just innately less discriminatory in how we pick them that we'll just be creating them without having to give any second thought because our natural biases have eroded enough to the point that we're not inadvertently marginalizing any particular group over the course of our games (and all games).

 

We're not there at this time, though.  And if the group that typically gets the content is still saying "wait it's not fair for me to get less for this one game" then I consider that a measuring stick that we're still not there and have to keep going.

[TheLastSuperSaiyan87]

Yeah, my femShep, after the scene ended, was sitting on a table watching Liara wake up and fully dressed.

Yeah I know I was just giving my theory since some were wondering why shepard was dressed, they could of woken up before Liara/Kaiden/Ashley and got dressed and was waiting for them to wake. Origins is what got me how after my female warden and leliana had sex my warden wakes up fully armored lol but that could of been for protection. 

[SirGladiator]

So many problems with having others deciding for you which LIs you should and shouldn't be allowed to romance (especially when those folks love things super-convoluted).  Most folks are going to be disappointed to some degree, lots of arguments and confusion etc.  For all the talk about equal options for everyone, we used to have that but we don't anymore.  DA2 had that, and they decided to go away from that in favor of a system that is just bizarre, so bizarre we, and possibly even they, still don't fully know it yet.  DA2's system was 'Here are the LIs you can romance', it was simple, everybody could understand it right away, it was just plain fun no matter who you were or who you liked.  This system has been rolled out for weeks and weeks and it just gets stranger as we learn more.  Sex gating, then race gating, Male Inquisitors unhappy that they aren't allowed to romance Sera, Female Inquisitors unhappy they retconned Cassandra into not being bisexual anymore, then we learn they're starting to back off on the race gating, at least with one of the three race gated LIs, so now whether there will be two, one, or zero is a mystery, etc..and it was all entirely avoidable, simply by letting people play the game their way, like you could in DA2, and pretty much all other major games these days do.  I certainly hope that in the future they decide to go back to keeping it simple and fun for everyone, drop the various forms of gating and just let people play the game the way that is most enjoyable to them.  It's always so much nicer when everybody gets exactly what they want.

[Allan Schumacher]

I am really sick and tired of this myth that the video game industry is homophobic or sexist. I'm sure there are those out there claiming it's racist too. Not only is it false but to label the entire industry as such is downright insulting. Companies focus on certain markets and not seeing content suited to your own preferences simply does not equal bigotry.

I cannot comprehend the lengths some here are going to defend the double standard of "it's not okay to have more straight than gay options, but the reverse would be okay". It pure and simply a double standard and there is nothing to be respected about such a thing.

 

 

That you see THIS as a double standard, but not the historic, long running double standard that has existed and continues to exist, is a large part of the problem.

 

There's two double standards here, but one of them is a consequence of the other.  Fix the one, and the other goes away.

[Ianamus]

Yes, that's my exact point.  The "best game for LGBT representation" puts us even with everyone else.  That's the problem.  So if there are more options, there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't be options for LGBT people, just like there's no reason why it couldn't be for straight people.  I'm not saying that we have to have more options.  I'm saying that we've never had more options ever and someone might be getting more options, so it might as well be us for once.

 

There's no reason it couldn't be, and it would be fine if it was. I just don't like the argument that it should be. 

[jellobell]

Then I think your perspective still needs to grow.  They are heterosexual love interests for the protagonist of video games.  And they are everywhere.

 

They may not be a choice that the player can make, but that doesn't mean they are exempt from contributing to "heterosexuals get the love stories, others do not" images.

 

Yeah. It's something that a lot of people I've spoken to take for granted, but for years I tried very hard to find games that would allow me to play as my own gender (there aren't very many at all). And of those, only a teeny tiny fraction contained the sort of romantic subplots that always seem to make it into games with straight male protagonists (ostensibly because straight male gamers would feel uncomfortable playing a character who falls in love with a man). It felt very alienating. So I do think that romantic subplots in games, even if you have no choice in them, are important to look at.

[Lady Nuggins]

I am really sick and tired of this myth that the video game industry is homophobic or sexist. I'm sure there are those out there claiming it's racist too. Not only is it false but to label the entire industry as such is downright insulting. Companies focus on certain markets and not seeing content suited to your own preferences simply does not equal bigotry.

I cannot comprehend the lengths some here are going to defend the double standard of "it's not okay to have more straight than gay options, but the reverse would be okay". It pure and simply a double standard and there is nothing to be respected about such a thing.

 

You really don't see the difference between "maybe one game in 50 has just one gay character" and "this one game has one more gay character than it has straight characters"? 

[In Exile]

 

 

Even after the ending, I still will finish my second session of ME3.  I can understand where folks are coming from, believe me.  I saw the footage of the endings pre EC and yeah, I'd be angry too.

 

However, I guess I'm not going to let 10 minutes of a badly explained info-dump ruin my newfound love of the series.  It helps I came in late.  If I let a poorly handled info dump at the end of a game or a bad ending ruin a game for me, I wouldn't replay NWN2 and Chrono Cross.

 

ME3 didn't bother me because of the poorly executed ending, as much as the fact that I found the ending morally repugnant. It's one of my biggest regrets that I subjectively just can't enjoy the series, because I never got to play the Citadel DLC which by every account is a phenomenal experience (especially for a romance fan such as me). 

 

Fair points about NWN2 and Chrono Cross (I was shocked by one of those endings, where it felt like your reward for your heroism was basically to get executed in cold blood, at least in a philosophical sense). 

 

Good point.  I haven't played the Zelda games since the SNES era.      But I'm familiar with the series, including most of the plots and the rather interesting time line.

 

Twilight Princess is the only Zelda game I played, but I really liked it. 

[AresKeith]

Characters like the prostitutes in Grand Theft auto maybe, but I can't see princess peach or Zelda as romance options. 

 

Don't get me started on that

[godModeAlpha]

That you see THIS as a double standard, but not the historic, long running double standard that has existed and continues to exist, is a large part of the problem.
 
There's two double standards here, but one of them is a consequence of the other.  Fix the one, and the other goes away.

Hi Allan, I think it is wishful thinking to assume that the playing field will be level everywhere. IMHO it is better to be realistic and set realistic expectations accordingly. How long ago was segregation as an example outlawed, but even today it still exists. The video game industry is after all in the business to ultimately make money, and it is becoming harder to find games that are not generic. What's my point: don't compromise the quality of games. Some crusades end in martyrdom, and there is no victory.

[Grieving Natashina]

ME3 didn't bother me because of the poorly executed ending, as much as the fact that I found the ending morally repugnant. It's one of my biggest regrets that I subjectively just can't enjoy the series, because I never got to play the Citadel DLC which by every account is a phenomenal experience (especially for a romance fan such as me). 

 

Fair points about NWN2 and Chrono Cross (I was shocked by one of those endings, where it felt like your reward for your heroism was basically to get executed in cold blood, at least in a philosophical sense). 

 

Citadel was very good, but I do understand where you were coming from.  And it figures that NWN2 is one of the only BW games I've played were the evil ending wasn't just equal in quality to the good ending, but far surpassed it.  Chrono Cross...yeah; I'm glad that game has a place in my heart, otherwise it would probably put me off the game.  However, I did study up on string theory because of that ending, so it wasn't all bad.

 

Edit: I was wrong and this isn't a BW game.  Thank you Deviija for pointing that out.  

 

Yeah. It's something that a lot of people I've spoken to take for granted, but for years I tried very hard to find games that would allow me to play as my own gender (there aren't very many at all). And of those, only a teeny tiny fraction contained the sort of romantic subplots that always seem to make it into games with straight male protagonists (ostensibly because straight male gamers would feel uncomfortable playing a character who falls in love with a man). It felt very alienating. So I do think that romantic subplots in games, even if you have no choice in them, are important to look at.

I'm in complete accord with you here.  

[AresKeith]

My guess(and hope) is that the final 2 are Vivienne and Solas

 

Vivienne could be race-gated and one of the already confirmed ones would be race-gated

[Deviija]

And it figures that NWN2 is one of the only BW games I've played were the evil ending wasn't just equal in quality to the good ending, but far surpassed it.  

 

Psst.  NWN2 isn't a BioWare game, it is an Obsidian game.  

[Grieving Natashina]

Psst.  NWN2 isn't a BioWare game, it is an Obsidian game.  

I thought that BW started it, but Obsidian had to finish it for them?  At least for NWN2 OC.

[DeusGoddess5010]

My guess(and hope) is that the final 2 are Vivienne and Solas

 

Vivienne could be race-gated and one of the already confirmed ones would be race-gated

I kinda dont want Solas lol Just her and varric kuz well, I feel like he has been around for a long while

[Deviija]

I thought that BW started it, but Obsidian had to finish it for them?  At least for NWN2 OC.

 

I've not heard that before.  Obsidian developed the game, BioWare offered support and guidance, in similar collaborative effect that happened with KOTOR2.

[ReelRipper]

Fizzie don't blow up again I don't have much super glue left damn it!