19658 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

I would even have written much more. I like Gaider, but there he lost me. What he said doesn't mean much to me. It's Bioware that said that it's left to interpretation, not the players. And now he is saying that it's irrelevant, she is bisexual despite what people want to think a long time after the game. Nope. I'm sorry, but nope. Don't take us for fools.

 

There is a big difference between saying, on the one hand, no matter what the writer says, the text doesn't support their supposed intention because [reasons], and, on the other hand, the writer is lying to the fans, their real intention was otherwise, and saying that their intention isn't what we say it was means they are lying and disrespecting us. 

 

DG can be wrong about how Merrill came across while still intending to portray her a particular way and without wanting to take anyone for fools.

 

Loghain is a good example. I think the text strongly supports an interpretation that he's a comically incompetent and self-destructive idiot, and his tactical "competence" is a poor parody of military knowledge. But DGs intention certainly wasn't to portray him that way. 

[The Elder King]

I liked Meredith quite a lot. I'd love it if we had an older, mature lady as an LI. One that does look the part as well. Women LIs in games tend to be very young. Having age lines on the face for a woman character love interest is like a sacred no-no. I'd enjoy a Meredith or a Wynne.

Cassandra isn't really young. She's in her late thirties-early fourties.

[Mihura]

Yes, and I apply it to any sexuality.


It works when it comes to representation. I do not need to know what the developers think of Morrigan, Alistiar, Leliana, and Zevran's sexuality to form an opinion on them. That opinion may be different than what the author imagines those characters to be, but creators are not hall monitors whose job it is to give me permission to believe one thing or another.

If Merill was a good representation of demisexuality, she still is. David saying 'Merrill is bisexual' should have no more impact than David saying 'Leliana is straight.'

I suspect the problem is that Merrill wasn't a good representation in the first place.

... Defense of the Ancients?

 

Well yes but I am talking about metagamening, that devs should acknowledged that. In the game yes you can head-canon it and I did too, anyone can do it but having official word has a lot of height.
 

I think if they said Leliana was straight, we will be having a war. Or Lesbian.

 

Death of the Author LOL

[Ianamus]

It makes her better representation than NPC #5 if she was part of that group though. 

 

It does. I just don't see what your argument is though. I've often seen you saying that you want all (or several) love interests to have an unclear sexuality like Merrill.

 

I'll try to make an example: 

 

Say I want bisexual representation, because I am bisexual. In a game there is a character I think is bisexual, because they never explicitly state their sexuality, and I count them as representation. But later the developers confirm the character was straight. 

 

In this situation I'd argue for the inclusion of an explicitly bisexual character in the next game, not to have more characters with unclear sexualities so I can see them as bisexual if I wanted to. The latter is not representation. 

 

If what you want is this specific sexuality to be represented then isn't that arguing for a set sexuality, something that you've been saying you are against? Or are you happy so long as there is a character whose sexuality is unclear enough that they could be the what you want them to be, but could also be anything else?

[HuldraDancer]

Still no word on the last two romances I take it?

 

I wonder if Iron Bull will also speak Qunari during battle like Sten. Maybe he'll speak Qunari to the inquisitor in certain romance moments

I really want him to call the Inquisitor Kadan(I hope I spelled that right) at least once (romance or not I just want to be called that by him so much)

[In Exile]

Well yes but I am talking about metagamening, that devs should acknowledged that. In the game yes you can head-canon it and I did too, anyone can do it but having official word has a lot of height.
 

I think if they said Leliana was straight, we will be having a war. Or Lesbian.

 

Death of the Author LOL

 

I think official word just tells us what the intention behind the design was, which allows us to better understand the influences that went into writing. But I think judging the way the work was written or the author is not the same as judging the work itself; this is why we shouldn't over-rely on what the author is saying for their interpretation of characters or events. 

 

For example, someone might want to argue that Leliana was lying to herself about Marjolane, and never really loved her. We can justifiably disagree with that statement based on the evidence we see in DA:O. If Leliana's writer weights in, I do not think her interpretation of the text carries more merit than a fans. 

[Deviija]

 

Cassandra isn't really young. She's in her late thirties-early fourties.

 

Mmhm, it's why I said 'tend to be very young.'  It's not an always.  Late 30s, early 40s is good, though not the same bracket as Meredith.  Still, it's one of the reasons I am looking forward to Inquisition.  The cast is about a decade older than the usual RPG casts.  

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It does. I just don't see what your argument is though. I've often seen you saying that you want all (or a lot of) love interests to have an unclear sexuality like Merrill.

 

I'll try to make an example: 

 

Say I want bisexual representation, because I am bisexual. In a game there is a character I think is bisexual, because they never explicitly state their sexuality, and I count them as representation. But later the developers confirm the character was straight. 

 

I'd argue for the inclusion of an explicitly bisexual character, not to have more characters with unclear sexualities so I think they were bisexual if I wanted to. The latter is not representation. 

 

If what you want is this specific sexuality to be represented then isn't that arguing for a set sexuality, something you've been saying you are against? Or are you happy so long as there is a character whose sexuality is unclear enough that they could be the one you want it to be, but could also be anything else?

Yes, I would like more to be sexually ambiguous like Merrill was because that is what I am.

 

The difference is with the set sexuality system they are going with now, each Li is going to clearly be straight, bi, or gay. From the sounds of things, there is no longer going to be the ambiguous ones because people view it as things like "bisexual erasure". If there was a way to argue for them to explicitly have LIs like what I am, I'd've do that instead. But I didn't know any at the time so argued what I thought was the best shot. That is why I preferred DA2's system over the new one. 

[In Exile]

 

 

 

Mmhm, it's why I said 'tend to be very young.'  It's not an always.  Late 30s, early 40s is good, though not the same bracket as Meredith.  Still, it's one of the reasons I am looking forward to Inquisition.  The cast is about a decade older than the usual RPG casts.  

 

 

Was Meredith intended to be in her fifties? Her skin looked worn, but her hair was such a vibrant blond I could never really see her as older than her late 40s. 

[Maria Caliban]

Well yes but I am talking about metagamening, that devs should acknowledged that. In the game yes you can head-canon it and I did too, anyone can do it but having official word has a lot of height.
 
I think if they said Leliana was straight, we will be having a war. Or Lesbian.
 
Death of the Author LOL

Having conversations about characters is not metagaming, nor is basing your interpretation of a character on multiple playthroughs. Yesterday I saw a video of Morrigan and Leliana fighting over the (male) Warden. It added to my perception of who Leliana is because she displayed traits that were new to me.

Having official word is good, but what's better is having textual support. A demisexual character can talk about their sexuality. Representation should be more than projecting yourself on a character and hoping the author never gives their own opinion.

As for Leliana, if David said she was straight, people would reject his statement. She obviously is not. I don't need headcanon for Leliana to be bisexual. If Sasha needs headcanon for Merrill to be demisexual then she wasn't portrayed that way.

[Sylvianus]

There is a big difference between saying, on the one hand, no matter what the writer says, the text doesn't support their supposed intention because [reasons], and, on the other hand, the writer is lying to the fans, their real intention was otherwise, and saying that their intention isn't what we say it was means they are lying and disrespecting us. 

 

DG can be wrong about how Merrill came across while still intending to portray her a particular way and without wanting to take anyone for fools.

 

Loghain is a good example. I think the text strongly supports an interpretation that he's a comically incompetent and self-destructive idiot, and his tactical "competence" is a poor parody of military knowledge. But DGs intention certainly wasn't to portray him that way. 

 

There's a big difference between you example with Loghain and the all bi system. The interpretations with Loghain only come from the game. Bioware had plenty of time to correct people. Had plenty of time to say such thing. They always said it was left to interpretation. it's not something the players thought themself only from the game and their interpretations. They just took into account what was said about the romance system and about Merril, explanations out of story. I was confused myself with the new system, and I read a dev post saying that is what meant to be ambiguous, left for interpretation. I hated this concept but I accepted what they said. People could choose whatever the hell they want and believe whatever the hell they think. After Bioware said that Isabela and Anders were truly bi. They participated in a lot of thread about the all bi system, they argued about its values, etc etc. And never it was said about Merril.

 

And now a long time after the game, and because they decided to give up with the all bi system ( and a lot of people don't understand why they gave up with this system ), they say that Merril was always bisexual and the interpretations are irrelevant. 

[In Exile]

Having conversations about characters is not metagaming, nor is basing your interpretation of a character on multiple playthroughs. Yesterday I saw a video of Morrigan and Leliana fighting over the (male) Warden. It added to my perception of who Leliana is because she displayed traits that were new to me.

 

It was very interesting insight into their characters, though I kind of hope if in the future Bioware avoids the "catty women" trope (which was more visible with Aveline/Isabella, which at least wasn't over a man). Though on the other hand, Anders/Fenris did this in DA2 and frankly they were way worse. 

[In Exile]

There's a big difference between you example with Loghain and the all bi system. The interpretations with Loghain only come from the game. Bioware had plenty of time to correct people. Had plenty of time to say such thing. They always said it was left to interpretation. it's not something the players thought themself only from the game and their interpretations. They just took into account what was said about the romance system and about Merril. I was confused myself with the new system, and I read a dev post saying that is what meant to be ambiguous, left for interpretation. I hated this concept but I accepted what they said. People could choose whatever the hell they want and believe whatever the hell they think. After Bioware said that Isabela and Anders were truly bi. They participated in a lot of thread about the all bi system, they argued about its values, etc etc. And never it was said.

 

And now a long time after the game, and because they decided to give up with the all bi system ( and a lot of people why they gave up with this system ), they say that Merril was always bisexual and the interpretations are irrelevant. 

 

I haven't seen any evidence that Bioware backed away from the "ambiguous" line, because as I recall in those threads Bioware simply said that they players were free to read in what they liked and they had no objection in principle to the idea that different gendered Protagonists lived in parallel words. But I do not recall, for example, DG ever saying that characters had no set sexuality, or that characters were "playersexual". 

[Grieving Natashina]

I haven't seen any evidence that Bioware backed away from the "ambiguous" line, because as I recall in those threads Bioware simply said that they players were free to read in what they liked and they had no objection in principle to the idea that different gendered Protagonists lived in parallel words. But I do not recall, for example, DG ever saying that characters had no set sexuality, or that characters were "playersexual". 

I do remember him saying how much he hated the word "playersexual" as well.

[Sylvianus]

I do remember him saying how much he hated the word "playersexual" as well.

 

Because he could think the word is gross ? You don't know. 

[Reznore57]

Because he could think the word is gross ? You don't know. 

 

Perhaps it's because "Player sexual" can hints the players have agency over NPC sexuality?

[Ianamus]

Yes, I would like more to be sexually ambiguous like Merrill was because that is what I am.

 

The difference is with the set sexuality system they are going with now, each Li is going to clearly be straight, bi, or gay. From the sounds of things, there is no longer going to be the ambiguous ones because people view it as things like "bisexual erasure". If there was a way to argue for them to explicitly have LIs like what I am, I'd've do that instead. But I didn't know any at the time so argued what I thought was the best shot. That is why I preferred DA2's system over the new one. 

 

But that's the point, Merrill wasn't sexually ambiguous. Not how you seem to define it, anyway. 

 

Merrill's sexuality was unclear from an outside-looking-in perspective. She could be anything in the sense that the player could perceive her as anything, just as you perceived her having a sexuality similar to yours. This doesn't mean she actually had a sexuality similar to yours, any more than me looking at her and thinking she was bisexual made her have a sexuality similar to mine. 

 

She was never a representation of the sexuality you perceived her to be. Not any more than she was a representation of a straight or gay character. 

 

And that's why I view the ambiguity as a problem. You perceived her as something that she was not intended to be, and it clearly made you upset when the Developers said that she was not how you perceived her to be. I have no issue with a character with the sexuality you want appearing in game, so long as the character makes it clear that they have that sexuality. I just don't want more characters who never talk about their sexuality at all, leave it unclear, and don't represent anything. 

[Sylvianus]

I haven't seen any evidence that Bioware backed away from the "ambiguous" line, because as I recall in those threads Bioware simply said that they players were free to read in what they liked and they had no objection in principle to the idea that different gendered Protagonists lived in parallel words. But I do not recall, for example, DG ever saying that characters had no set sexuality, or that characters were "playersexual". 

 

He said that Isabela was truly bi and written as such. What I understood from his post is that not all the romance were ambiguous, meaning left to interpretations. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Because he could think the word is gross ? You don't know. 

Why are you reading tone into my text?  I just mentioned that DG didn't seem to like the word.  It was meant to be a neutral response to Exile's statement. 

[JadePrince]

But that's the point, Merrill wasn't sexually ambiguous. Not how you seem to define it, anyway. 

 

And that's why I view the ambiguity as a problem. You perceived her as something that she was not intended to be, and it clearly made you upset when the Developers said that she was not how you perceived her to be. I have no issue with a character with the sexuality you want appearing in game, so long as the character makes it clear that they have that sexuality. I just don't want more characters who never talk about their sexuality at all, leave it unclear, and don't represent anything. 

 

That's exactly what I was trying to express, but not doing a good job of. Thank you.

[Maria Caliban]

One of the other problems with relying on authorial intent is that what the author says the intent is can change over time. Their own interpretation of the characters and situations shifts just as easily as a fan's does.

[Reznore57]

 I just don't want more characters who never talk about their sexuality at all, leave it unclear, and don't represent anything. 

 

I don't agree with this , some people don't talk about their sexuality , I've met a lot of people I have no idea if they are single , in couple , gay , straight , bisexual etc...

And I don't care.

 

I'm fine with having companions who just don't get into details about their private life.

[Sylvianus]

Why are you reading tone into my text?  I just mentioned that DG didn't seem to like the word.  It was meant to be a neutral response to Exile's statement. 

 

My response was totally neutral, but now I'm re-reading it and it could be seen as agressive, sometimes I should put a smiley, sorry if that's what you thought. I also thought you meant something else. 

[Grieving Natashina]

No worries, but may I ask what you thought I meant?  I'm mostly trying to stay out of this debate, because folks on both sides have been articulating my thoughts better than I could.  I'm trying to read and learn as we go.

[Deviija]

 

Was Meredith intended to be in her fifties? Her skin looked worn, but her hair was such a vibrant blond I could never really see her as older than her late 40s. 

 

I view Meredith in her 48-58 range, but that's personal guesstimation.  I don't think there's been an official age given for Meredith, I'm just going by the weathering of the faces for folks like Meredith and Wynne vs. younger Cass and Leliana.  Character design for video game women can be a hard read sometimes, given our media's push for youthful women/youthful looks.  Though even if Cass is 38, and Meredith is 48, that's still a fair bracket difference to me.