19658 réponses à ce sujet

[TheLastSuperSaiyan87]

 

 

 

How do you know what's in her character or not? We know barely anything about her other than really vague general stuff, like "she likes to have fun" and "she cares about the poor/downtrodden" and "she doesn't like nature." That's not enough to know the nitty-gritty or see where she draws the line.

From what I have read about her, I'm really good at reading how a person is, call it a gift or it could be from where I'm a psychology major. I have read enough on her to come up with a good character profile for her. 

[Allan Schumacher]

A thread in the forum that is very rarely read , (not to mention that dev was discussing and interacting about this topic in THIS thread).I'm not being needlessly combative if an actual moderator believes discussing the races of romances in the romance thread is off topic, thats fine. Lets the mods do there jobs, no need for members to try and do it for them

 

Just as a heads up, but that thread has a 0% chance of me missing posts compared to a larger, fast moving thread like this one (where, if I fall behind on, I don't read all of the posts).

[TheLastSuperSaiyan87]

you can debate this as long as you want but chances are humans will still have the most choices 

[A Clever Name]

 

And Queen Cousland and Alistair are having a harder time stablizing their reign I believe than Alistair and Anora would. (Least I'm pretty sure. It's been a while since I read that codex).

 

Not sure about King Cousland.

 

So it might just be the boons are crappy either way.

Wait here it is

I understand it's a bad situation for basically every ending and its variants, I'm just trying to provide some context for why people feel so strongly about this.  To this, I would say that at least the HN gets the highest seat of power in Ferelden and it isn't taken away from them, even if it is difficult for them to handle the instability Ferelden is experiencing - especially a female Cousland, who could at least marry Alistair, as opposed to the other origins which are downgraded to either breaking up with him or forced to be his royal mistress, which may not sit well with them personally.

[Maria Caliban]

Why is it fine to challenge straight (male) player privilege with romance-able companion sexuality, but it's laughably absurd to do the same by way of race?

Because queer people suffer from lack of representation and outright discrimination and harassment wherein elves don't suffer because they don't exist.

[Ryzaki]

So, by that logic, what does it really hurt for human protagonists to lose access to something? If what you say is true and most people won't even finish the game, let alone explore all the dialogue options or look up all the romances available, so they won't really know what they missed. How is losing access to one or two potential romance companions really going to hurt casual players? Character says: "Eh, you're nice, but I'm just not that into you." I think most would just shrug and move onto someone who did.

 

If it did really bother them so much, maybe it'll force them to rethink their choice. Fancy that! BioWare actually forces players to get out of their comfort zone, think about their character choice, and try something different instead of just pandering to the standard power fantasy. I mean, hey. They're already doing that by introducing Anders hitting on a male character last game (THE HORROR!) and adding homosexual characters this game , particularly a lesbian elf that the "majority" straight male players don't get access to. 

 

Whenever people get p!ssy about being denied something in the game that would make their playing experience easy and comfortable, BioWare pretty much says, "Don't care. This is not about catering to your comfort zone." On non-straight LI characters, when people try to throw the "But most players are straight, so you shouldn't waste such resources catering to the minority demographic and/or denying the majority players of some content they would want," BioWare has basically said, "They may not be as numerous, but women/the LGBT community are still our fans who deserve meaningful content for them same as everyone else."

 

Why is it fine to challenge straight (male) player privilege with romance-able companion sexuality, but it's laughably absurd to do the same by way of race?

 

Lose access to a romance? I have no issue with that. I already said so. It's the reasoning for it being the whole "OMG humans get too much!" and the attempt to vilify a HN character is what makes me "..." But you're right that shrug and move on would exactly be my reaction.

 

Rethink their choice? You can play human along side the other races. I oddly enough plan on planning both Qunari and humans. I'm still playing humans though. Pretty sure more people play females than play dwarves maybe even more than elves. But ideally there would be restrictions all over the map and while humans wouldn't have access to an LI neither would dwarves, qunari and elven players.

 

It's not. But frankly the way you were coming off was incredibly offputting with exaggerations and attempting to make the elven LIs victims of the big bad human "noble". It's an incredibly poor way to make your point. When you're like that I'm much less receptive to what you're saying.

 

Also elves, dwarves (the species) and qunari aren't actual people in the world. Humans are. Thus why the bolded doesn't really apply for the whole humans should be restricted cause elves are thing. There are no elves playing this game to get offended.

 

That said I am actually pro some LIs not wanting to be with a human player because yeah it could be plot relevant. Much like some LIs wanting nothing to do with non humans.

 

Edit: English fail in my defense I went to school for computer science! *flees*

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 juillet 2014 - 06:05 .

[Ryzaki]

 

 

I understand it's a bad situation for basically every ending and its variants, I'm just trying to provide some context for why people feel so strongly about this.  To this, I would say that at least the HN gets the highest seat of power in Ferelden and it isn't taken away from them, even if it is difficult for them to handle the instability Ferelden is experiencing - especially a female Cousland, who could at least marry Alistair, as opposed to the other origins which are downgraded to either breaking up with him or forced to be his royal mistress, which may not sit well with them personally.

 

 

Except the other origins can stay with Alistair by just not making him king. That's it. No mistress, no break up. Each origin has kicks in the face. That's just how Thedas is.

 

Also I really am not that bothered by the mistress ending and am kind of amused some people get so irritable about it. Just marry him to Anora.

[Parkimus]

- snip -

 

When you're like this I'm much more receptive to what you're saying.

 

- snip -

 

I think you mean "less". 

[Ryzaki]

I think you mean "less". 

 

 

One day I will not fail at english. Today is clearly not that day.

[Parkimus]

 

One day I will not fail at english. Today is clearly not that day.

 

Don't worry, we all have those moments

[LobselVith8]

Whenever people get p!ssy about being denied something in the game that would make their playing experience easy and comfortable, BioWare pretty much says, "Don't care. This is not about catering to your comfort zone." On non-straight LI characters, when people try to throw the "But most players are straight, so you shouldn't waste such resources catering to the minority demographic and/or denying the majority players of some content they would want," BioWare has basically said, "They may not be as numerous, but women/the LGBT community are still our fans who deserve meaningful content for them same as everyone else."

 

Why is it fine to challenge, or at least deny potential content to majority player privilege by including alternate romance-able companion sexuality, but it's laughably absurd to do the same by way of race-gating against humans?

 

Because queer people suffer from lack of representation and outright discrimination and harassment wherein elves don't suffer because they don't exist.

 

I don't find elves, dwarves, or qunari being fictional making the idea of more inclusion for other points of view and romances in Dragon Age "absurd". I don't see the harm in a female dwarven love interest, or a Tal-Vashoth love interest, aside from the issue of the prospective women not fitting the "ideal" bodytype that seems to be restricted for the potential love interests a player can pursue in Dragon Age.

[Ailith Tycane]

I don't find elves, dwarves, or qunari being fictional making the idea of more inclusion for other points of view and romances in Dragon Age "absurd". I don't see the harm in a female dwarven love interest, or a Tal-Vashoth love interest, aside from the issue of the prospective women not fitting the "ideal" bodytype that seems to be restricted for the potential love interests a player can pursue in Dragon Age.

 

I don't see the "harm" in it either, and I don't think Bioware does either, they just chose not to include any female dwarves or qunari romanceable companions in DAI. IB is male but he's still a qunari and still a romance option for all sexes and races. That's kind of a big deal. 

 

It however is not comparable to gay/lesbian representation, because as Maria said, there are actual gays and lesbians who desperately need representation in media...

[Maria Caliban]

I don't find elves, dwarves, or qunari being fictional making the idea of more inclusion for other points of view and romances in Dragon Age "absurd". I don't see the harm in a female dwarven love interest, or a Tal-Vashoth love interest, aside from the issue of the prospective women not fitting the "ideal" bodytype that seems to be restricted for the potential love interests a player can pursue in Dragon Age.

That has nothing to do with race-gating the romances against humans.

Faerunner is equating making a romance dwarf only with making Sera a lesbian or making Zevran bisexual.

[Allan Schumacher]

Because queer people suffer from lack of representation and outright discrimination and harassment wherein elves don't suffer because they don't exist.

 

Exactly this.

 

I'm infinitely more concerned with something like this than any inferred "racism" we may have against fictional races in a video game world.  Requesting more elf content because you're a fan of elves is equivalent to any person asking for more content that they think they'll find interesting.

 

 

Why is it fine to challenge straight (male) player privilege with romance-able companion sexuality, but it's laughably absurd to do the same by way of race?

 

One is a group of real life individuals that routinely gets discriminated against in virtually all aspects of life and have to face this discrimination on a systemic level in the real world.  Elves, Dwarves, and Qunari, on the other hand, do not actually exist as entities in the real world.  It's also why we're more interested in experimenting with themes like racism with them, because we are afforded a bit more freedom to do so without being concerned about whether or not we're falling into common conventions such as making groups of people that are typically affected by things like racism the continued target of racism in our games.  I think approaching the themes of racism can be very, very interesting in a game.  But I'd feel more like walking on eggshells if we were trying to deal with it in a setting based on real life than in a fictional one.

 

 

If playing elves is your "comfort zone" (beyond simply what you find more enjoyable) then you're going to need to elaborate a bit more on that, because I have a better understanding of LGBT content being "Thank you for letting me play a character that shares traits with myself and attempting to do so in a respectful way" than elf/dwarf/qunari fans saying that they feel I'm being discriminatory against a fictional race.  The latter comes across more as "I like this type of content so please make more of it" which I do not consider equivalent.

[GameBoyish]

Video games have been as much a part of our media and culture since about 1985 or so, when the NES hit.  Longer, if you want to go back to the 80s arcade era.  We're talking 30 years of being a part of mass media, and it's influence on the way people think and act has already been the source of several psychological studies.  It's important that in all aspects of media, yes even in video games, that people see themselves reflected properly.  If anything, studies are starting to show that video games can negatively affect our views on minorities and towards the LGBT community.

 

The excuse of, "It's just a game," really doesn't work anymore.  In 1985, when home television hit it's approximate 30 year mark, would it be still a good idea to go, "Oh, I'm not sure why these folks are upset.  It's just a TV show after all?"  Due to folks speaking up, our TV has overall come a long way since then in how we treat women, minorities, and the LGBT community.

 

Video games are just as valuable as any part of media.  Some are happy or sad, or silly.  Some make us think.  Some take us to places we couldn't even imagine being.  How is a video game any different from a book or a movie?  Because you're directly interacting with it?  Just like with books and movies, it's important to show all walks of life.  Otherwise, we won't learn anything nor grow as people.

Out of Likes.

[A Clever Name]

 

Except the other origins can stay with Alistair by just not making him king. That's it. No mistress, no break up. Each origin has kicks in the face. That's just how Thedas is.

 

Also I really am not that bothered by the mistress ending and am kind of amused some people get so irritable about it. Just marry him to Anora.

I've never personally romanced Alistair so I have no idea if there might be some context as to why they might be bothered by it.  ;P  Maybe they hate the fact that the relationship has to be all hush-hush?

 

Anyway.  I don't think debating about this is going to change how the game comes out.  It makes sense in some ways to me, seeing as a lot of the other races are minorities and it makes sense that they would be treated poorly in Thedas (although I can understand why this would upset people who just want a happy ending for their non-human PC).  I just can't see why there wouldn't be at least one restriction for humans, which at this point is totally plausible.  Were there a Dalish companion I would have expected that one to be elf!Inquisitor specific, but there isn't, so we'll see how this goes.

 

Honestly I'm just happy that there are a multitude of sexual orientations among our companions.  It has great implications for evolving standards of decency.

[Allan Schumacher]

I don't find elves, dwarves, or qunari being fictional making the idea of more inclusion for other points of view and romances in Dragon Age "absurd". I don't see the harm in a female dwarven love interest, or a Tal-Vashoth love interest, aside from the issue of the prospective women not fitting the "ideal" bodytype that seems to be restricted for the potential love interests a player can pursue in Dragon Age.

 

I don't see any harm in it either.  I don't see any harm in asking for it either because you think it will be interesting and you like being an elf in the Dragon Age setting.

 

I do not, however, consider it equivalent to trying to include LGBT content (which frankly, could also go to Elves, Dwarves, and Qunari, so I'm not really sure that the race is the issue here) and consider it much more of a "nice to have" than an actual "right thing to try to do."

 

 

It's reasonable to wonder if we have an inclination not to do so because of the body types, although I think that this argument would have more merit if we had more racial companions anyways.  As is, we don't have many racial companions (male or female) which if you like those races, feel free to be upset about.  But please don't equate the lack of that type of content as equivalent to the lack of LGBT content because I simply do not think that that is the case. 

 

 

I consider them very different issues with different degrees of responsibility for whether or not there's a justification for including the content.  Sorry.

[Ryzaki]

 

 

I've never personally romanced Alistair so I have no idea if there might be some context as to why they might be bothered by it.  ;P  Maybe they hate the fact that the relationship has to be all hush-hush?

 

Anyway.  I don't think debating about this is going to change how the game comes out.  It makes sense in some ways to me, seeing as a lot of the other races are minorities and it makes sense that they would be treated poorly in Thedas (although I can understand why this would upset people who just want a happy ending for their non-human PC).  I just can't see why there wouldn't be at least one restriction for humans, which at this point is totally plausible.  Were there a Dalish companion I would have expected that one to be elf!Inquisitor specific, but there isn't, so we'll see how this goes.

 

Honestly I'm just happy that there are a multitude of sexual orientations among our companions.  It has great implications for evolving standards of decency.

 

 

Pfft. Alistair. Hush hush. So hush hush about it that people in Kirkwall know the elf PC is his mistress. HA.

 

Oh I agree. It's completely plausible. I never said it wasn't. It's just as plausible however that the elven LIs to this point are not bothered by the human noble PCs romancing them. Especially since our nobles...hardly act noble.

 

I'm not even going to ask...

[Former_Fiend]

As much as I've argued the point that certain exclusionary treatment that elves, qunari, and dwarves may receive in game has actual racist implications - not in the sense that you're being racist against elves, dwarves, or qunari, but in the sense that it's sending the message that certain degrees of racism are ok, or that it undermines other messages in the game about racism being wrong- but for all I've argued that, I'm not about to start (and do not believe I have) treated it as the equivalent of providing representation and fair treatment for the LGBT community. 

 

That said, I do still see it as a more complicated issue that is not so easily dismissed by the argument that elves and such don't exist.

[TheLastSuperSaiyan87]

I'm sorry but relating real life situations to a fictional one is never a good thing, it takes the fun away from the fictional work when you look at it that way. 

[Ceoldoren]

Because queer people suffer from lack of representation and outright discrimination and harassment wherein elves don't suffer because they don't exist.

I absolutely agree with this, I'm all for more Bi/queer relationships. Even to the point of making straight relationships the minority. It would never happen, but I think it would be interesting.

[TheLastSuperSaiyan87]

I really didn't think people would take romance in video games this serious, I mean I like my romances in games but I never took it so seriously that I  brought sexuality or race into it as a serious thing to debate over in real life  I mean seriously. 

[A Clever Name]

 

I'm sorry but relating real life situations to a fictional one is never a good thing, it takes the fun away from the fictional work when you look at it that way. 

You can't really stop people from relating to them in a personal manner, though.  It's bound to happen - writers draw from what they know, and that makes plenty of real-world analogues in an entirely fictional universe.

 

EDIT: I just think it's important not to be dismissive about how people feel.  It might be difficult, considering we're all typing to each other over the internet, but we're all people with opinions and feelings that can be valid.  (TL;DR - Everybody love each other.)