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#18026
TK514

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Eh I didn't take Seb seriously. He didn't even have the brass to attempt to kill Anders on his own and...yeah. He was having a bad day.

 

That said I'd loved the option to go "Go ahead. Take your revenge than Seb." and let him kill Anders preferably via arrow to the head like Petrice. Even if it was only a rivalry option.

 

I didn't take him all that seriously because he had nothing to back his threat up with.  Starkhaven is still ruled by his cousin, and unless he was out drumming up support during all those years my Hawke was pushing him towards the Chantry, he has no money, no army, no political clout, and no allies.  Even with my Hawke who rivaled him into wanting to take back the throne, I don't recall any indication that he's made any progress towards actually reclaiming his city.  One way or the other, we give his enemies six years to entrench themselves and fully take over his former home.  If he were able to reclaim it, it would take him long enough to become a threat that Kirkwall would have recovered and been as strong as necessary to rebuff his heated advances.



#18027
Nocte ad Mortem

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Percentages concerning LGBT population are worthless, anyway. You end up with polls finding 15% of California is LGBT and 0% of Alabama is. I wonder how that happens? 


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#18028
frylock23

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I wouldn't buy it. I have books with gay protagonists and sexually fluid ones that I enjoy reading very much; I even have Sims who are gay, but I don't identify with the protagonists of books or my Sims as much as I identify with the protagonists of RPGs who are in a way representations of me.

 

I just don't identify personally with those orientations because they aren't me. Now because of that I can certainly understand the hunger of people who do identify with those orientations to have that happen for them.

 

Really, the best compromise that nets the most sales is for the PC to remain what you make of him or her.



#18029
Lee80

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Percentages concerning LGBT population are worthless, anyway. You end up with polls finding 15% of California is LGBT and 0% of Alabama is. I wonder how that happens? 

Well, clearly that last percentage is wrong.  There are gay people in Alabama, myself included.  Though you may have been exaggerating for the sake of a point...  So yeah...   :P


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#18030
Nocte ad Mortem

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Well, clearly that last percentage is wrong.  There are gay people in Alabama, myself included.  Though you may have been exaggerating for the sake of a point...  So yeah...   :P

No, I've literally seen polls with those exact results. The polls are self reported. In some states, people are much more willingly to self-identify as gay than in other states. People in cities tend to be more willing to identify openly as LGBT than in rural areas, as well. The fact that people are not honest in polls leads to unreliable statistics. It's why the numbers are much higher now everywhere than they were a couple decades ago.  


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#18031
Ryzaki

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That would've been my option, but alas, I had to do the dirty deed myself.

 

Seriously what a bummer.

 

 

You're forgetting that Sebastian killing Anders himself would involve him committing to something fully. I.e. he can't.

 

That's part of the reason I'd want that option Xili.

 

 

I didn't take him all that seriously because he had nothing to back his threat up with.  Starkhaven is still ruled by his cousin, and unless he was out drumming up support during all those years my Hawke was pushing him towards the Chantry, he has no money, no army, no political clout, and no allies.  Even with my Hawke who rivaled him into wanting to take back the throne, I don't recall any indication that he's made any progress towards actually reclaiming his city.  One way or the other, we give his enemies six years to entrench themselves and fully take over his former home.  If he were able to reclaim it, it would take him long enough to become a threat that Kirkwall would have recovered and been as strong as necessary to rebuff his heated advances.

 

Well yeah that also helped.
 

And by then Anders would've moved on and Seb would better spend his resources tracking him down than starting a war.



#18032
frylock23

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It has, but it has also never locked you into playing one way or the other. The key is that the variety is there and the freedom to play what you identify as.



#18033
TK514

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Not necessarily. If companies are too afraid to take that step, then it would explain why it's excluded, rather than being conclusively "non-profitable"; it's the same reason we have stories in television and movies that "whitewash" people of color, and why we haven't really gotten films with superheroines after the recent success of superhero films. Dragon Age has managed to build an audience by creating an RPG that appeals to people of different sexual orientations, and even providing some same sex characters as part of it's setting. I'd say it's contributed to the success of the series.

 

I agree.  I think part of the success of BioWare as a developer has been their willingness to iterate on including things they think are important.  They may not always be successful, but they are always willing to take the risk, and their fans tend to reward them by being loyal.

 

Not every time, mind you, but in general.


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#18034
LobselVith8

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It has, but it has also never locked you into playing one way or the other. The key is that the variety is there and the freedom to play what you identify as.

 

I'd say that's part of the appeal of RPGs in general. It certainly is for me, since it's seldom that I'd get to play as a Latino protagonist otherwise in games that have a static protagonist (and the closest equivalent in Thedas is Antivan, so ethnically Antivan protagonists it is).



#18035
Lee80

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No, I've literally seen polls with those exact results. The polls are self reported. In some states, people are much more willingly to self-identify as gay than in other states. People in cities tend to be more willing to identify openly as LGBT than in rural areas, as well. The fact that people are not honest in polls leads to unreliable statistics. It's why the numbers are much higher now everywhere than they were a couple decades ago.  

wow, they didn't do a very good job.  There are, while still being a small amount compared to straight, many LGBT people in Alabama, including a rather popular gay church in a city near me that I used to attend.  They failed at making an accurate study either way it goes.  hehe

 

Edit: the church is actually a protestant church, but most of the members are gay, and it is catered specially around supporting the LGBT community.   Not that they worship the sexuality...  Just to be clear.  lol!



#18036
Deviija

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It is part of many problems with trying to nail down queer/gay percentages as it relies on self-reporting and participant honesty.  It's not something visible.  


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#18037
A Clever Name

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I used to work for my campus's polling center, and people lied all the time on our surveys - mind you they may have had good reasons, and we were told not to question their honesty.  The best way to get statistics in my opinion is with larger sample sizes and follow-ups after a few years have passed, particularly with social matters like numbers on LGBT identification.  Our surveys were rarely any larger than a few thousand, which, it's sort of hard to get an accurate idea of what you're looking for.  Take every survey that boils answers down to "a or b" with a grain of salt, is what we were told during orientation.


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#18038
Not a Cat Doll

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It is part of many problems with trying to nail down queer/gay percentages as it relies on self-reporting and participant honesty.  It's not something visible.  

Yes, I think this is an important point. They also acknowledge at the end of the article that the proportion who identified as gay or bi was atypically small in comparison to similar studies. Either way, 2.3 % of the US population is still around 7 million people, and then there are the LGBTQIA populations of other countries where the game is sold to be considered. All told, it would still comprise a fair amount of people.


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#18039
Ninjasplaycardgames2

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 Retweeted by Patrick Weekes

One of my favorite things about @PatrickWeekes is that he uses his Twitter fame for good. Like finding pornographic blanket printers.



#18040
BabyFratelli

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Well if every gay, bi person in the US played video games your representation is still only at best 3.65% of the gaming community.  not saying that's good or bad just a fact.

 

 

Not a fact. Statistical error. There is no reliable percentage of how many LGBT+ people exist because of how many people do not identify out of fear (or just not wanting to). If you look at data spanning from the 1990s, you can see that every year there's a slight increase in the population of LGBT people all over the world. So, are more people becoming queer as time goes on? No, not necessarily (in fact, highly unlikely). More people are becoming comfortable with 'coming out' and finding their identities as our society crawls at a snails pace towards tolerance. Until the percentages settle, and they won't for years and years, we have no way of knowing how many people are LGBT+.

 

and besides, even if there were 1.5 percent lgbt+ people for every 10 straights they would still deserve the same amount of in game and in life opportunities.


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#18041
Chernaya

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Not a fact. Statistical error. There is no reliable percentage of how many LGBT+ people exist because of how many people do not identify out of fear (or just not wanting to). If you look at data spanning from the 1990s, you can see that every year there's a slight increase in the population of LGBT people all over the world. So, are more people becoming queer as time goes on? No, not necessarily (in fact, highly unlikely). More people are becoming comfortable with 'coming out' and finding their identities as our society crawls at a snails pace towards tolerance. Until the percentages settle, and they won't for years and years, we have no way of knowing how many people are LGBT+.

 

and besides, even if there were 1.5 percent lgbt+ people for every 10 straights they would still deserve the same amount of in game and in life opportunities.

 

Beautifully stated. I learned to never trust poll statistics in research design, especially easily biased/influenced ones such as this topic. 


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#18042
JadePrince

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Well if every gay, bi person in the US played video games your representation is still only at best 3.65% of the gaming community.  not saying that's good or bad just a fact.

 

 

 

Yeahhhhh, there's more of us than that. And when you talk about Bioware's most devoted (ie, most likely to spend money) fans, I'll bet you anything more than 4% of us are LGBT. I also know that devs have talked about how at conventions, a majority of the people who come talk to them (aka the most interested/passionate fans) at their booths tend to be women.

 

I think, as hard as it is to imagine, that Bioware's most loyal fans simply aren't mostly straight men. 

 

When you're the only gaming company making games where your players can play out gay romances, it stands to reason that feature is gonna attract a lot of gay fans. So it's not crazy to guess that Bioware has a higher number of LGBT fans than most game companies. 


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#18043
Hanako Ikezawa

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The beauty of statistics: You can make them say whatever you want.


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#18044
BabyFratelli

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Beautifully stated. I learned to never trust poll statistics in research design, especially easily biased/influenced ones such as this topic. 

 

You're beautifully stated.  ;)


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#18045
disgruntled-gamer

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Less risky how? Also I wouldn't call DA a Build your own adventure, more like a Slightly Change Their Own Adventure :v

the_evolution_of_bioware_romance_by_sirg



#18046
Hanako Ikezawa

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the_evolution_of_bioware_romance_by_sirg

It's funny because Liara was ME1 style and the others DAO style making this picture utterly wrong. 



#18047
Grieving Natashina

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For those that have seen this before, I apologize.  However, I see no need to change this post for this guy:

 

@disgruntled   Good for you, so glad you have an opinion that you want to push on anyone and everyone.  Glad to see you can at least type well, so at least you are easy to understand.  

 

That's great you have all of these strong feelings, but guess what?  BioWare doesn't give a crap if you think inclusion is a waste of time.  The posters don't give a crap if you think it's a waste of time.  You're wasting your time being here. BioWare has talked time and time again about how they are making money by doing this.  

 

That so far, there is nothing to indicate that having LGBT content has negatively affected their sales.

 

So, do yourself a huge favor: Vote with your wallet.  Stop wasting key strokes/text minutes and just don't buy the game.  It's really easy to do.  I know I won't care.  Probably a lot of other people won't either.  

 

Do you realize that your $60-70 is a drop in the bucket compared to the millions of people that have bought and played the games?  The millions more that will probably buy this game too?  You underestimate the size of the player base here, big time.  This isn't some small indie outfit.  

 

Give it up.  Let it go.  That much hate isn't good for you.  Really, you're going to waste your time with this?

 

There is a bunch of games out there just for you.  Where you don't have to put up with anything you don't like, that don't challenge your worldview.  Games that let you drift in the sea of the status quo.  Nothing but straight relationships as far as the eye can see.  You should probably go do that.  Otherwise, inclusion is apart of BioWare's goals, and has been for years now.  To make great games for everyone.  You have no choice but to deal with it, or find another game company where you are safe from all the stuff you refuse to learn more about.

 

Good day, sir.


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#18048
Chernaya

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You're beautifully stated.  ;)

 

<3

 

and @Nat: <3 <3

 

This is why I let others handle these kinds of discussions in here, people can always say it way better than I ever could. :P


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#18049
Guest_Luther_*

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I'm going to ignore the recent idiocy about how the market does not (and therefore should not) support anyone who is straight, white, and male. Such arguments have been disproved, dismantled, and deconstructed times beyond counting. And Natashina already did it brilliantly. If certain people wish to keep their head in the sand and argue "what about teh menz!?" let them. Men have two potential opposite sex love interests so far, as do women. That's been the standard since Origins. Of the same-sex romances, there are, so far, two for male and two for female. It'll be interesting to see how the final two romances affect that neatly organized balance. Regardless, cries of straight male oppression or exclusion of men and straight male interests are nonsense.

 

Rant over. Moving on.

 

 

Subjective. Cassandra is middle-aged (just as the oldest male companions), and Josephine and Vivienne are likely at least in their early thirties. I don't think any of them is "conventionally attractive" (gods, I hate that expression!). They're some of the least typical female characters you'll find in video games these days, in every sense. And yet is not enough, because they have to fit some arbitrary notion of "fairness".

 

Criticism is fine. Saying the devs are bigoted for not doing what you want, though, comes across as entitled (not directed at you specifically).

 

I agree with most of this. While it would be an interesting change if at least one companion was not pretty, because, in general, games like movies love making sure that the heroes are pretty, to say that the women are all young and conventional (and I take conventional to mean skinny, submissive, white, and blond) is wrong. Vivienne are Josephine are only the second and third times we've had a person of color as a companion, after Isabella. That's excellent and not conventional by game industry standards. Cassandra's toned warrior woman look isn't going to appeal to everyone. And not everyone sees Sera as attractive. Personally, I blame the haircut.

 

Perhaps the women's styles are conventional by DA standards? Females in the DA universe who are companions and romanceable seem to all prefer dark eye shadow and tend to be brown-haired or brunettes, with the exception of Leliana. So, in a way, Sera being a female companion, a potential romance interest, and blond is bucking DA convention.

 

Lastly, the accusations of them all young and sexually available is a bit unfair, too. Not just because of the age, as Gwydden pointed out, but also because not all the female companions are available for sex and romance, correct? Or has Vivienne been confirmed as a romanceable companion? Other female characters one can meet, such as Leliana and Morrigan, will not be romanceable by the Inquisitor and the former is an advisor. I do get why people say it'd be nice to have one attractive female companion or party member who wasn't romanceable. I'd argue the same about male characters. It'd be an interesting change from the norm for DA games. But, again, since Leliana is a potential companion, then she counts as a woman who's young, though not as young as she used to be, and attractive but also unavailable to the Inquisitor. Vivienne will be too, if she isn't romanceable. We know Varric won't be romanceable, while Solas hasn't been confirmed as a romance yet. So, unless this changes about Solas, they both would count as attractive men the Inquisitor cannot romance. And there are people who don't think the Iron Bull Sexyback is attractive.


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#18050
Nefla

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I'd be willing to bet that the percentage of lgbt gamers is exponentially higher than the percentage of gamers who look and act like video game protagonists. If what sells is a carbon copy of the player then most game protagonists should be either overweight or underweight and have traits like bad hair and acne right? Rather than a towering mass of muscled perfection and badassery. Seriously, who refuses to play a game because the protagonist is not exactly like them in every way (ex: upper-middle class straight white male gamer who only plays games about upper-middle class straight white males)? I'm a straight white woman but I love the opportunity to play other races, genders, sexualities, nationalities, etc...sameness is boring, I am me in real life. In a game I want to experience a different perspective.

 

So add me and all the people like me to that percentage, as well as people who don't care who the protagonist is, all the people who are tired of the same cut and paste "straight white male with dark hair and stubble" and people who will play any character/game that has a good story.


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