Aller au contenu

Photo

Romances

Débuté par Allan Schumacher , juin 13 2014 09:22

19658 réponses à ce sujet

#18551
carlo angelo
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 06:40

carlo angelo
  • Members
  • 725 messages

Well, I agree that Zevran is less masculine than the average male in Dragon Age, but I think the average for masculinity is pretty high in this series. I wouldn't think his character would be seen as particularly feminine in an average fantasy blockbuster. I'm not saying it's bad to be so, I would love to see some less masculine male LIs. To me, though, Zevran seems like your average smooth talking rogue type. I don't think he pushes gender roles too far. That's just my opinion, though.

 

I would like to see a male character who could be rather androgynous by their very nature- someone who isn't "conventionally masculine" as well as identify as homosexual without it being played as a bad thing... Like, there's this pressure not to conform to the stereotype of being a limp-wristed gay man who speaks with a lisp. While writers go in the opposite direction, they sometimes condemn some homosexual men who aren't or at least striving to become this socially constructed ideal of masculinity. There's this adage that stereotypes are incomplete characters so I would like to see a direction where a homosexual man isn't this "masculine" paragon many people find attractive and yet is written as a multi-faceted and well-developed companion (or even a protagonist) in video games. I guess this is something for the tropes thread as well, but I haven't really sat down and read through all the replies just yet.


  • Maferath, Pevesh, Lee80 et 4 autres aiment ceci

#18552
Who Knows
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 06:44

Who Knows
  • Members
  • 1 328 messages

The only traditionally feminine/femme thing Zevran had going for him was his hair, maybe. That's about it.


#18553
Nocte ad Mortem
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 06:45

Nocte ad Mortem
  • Members
  • 5 136 messages

I would like to see a male character who could be rather androgynous by their very nature- someone who isn't "conventionally masculine" as well as identify as homosexual without it being played as a bad thing... Like, there's this pressure not to conform to the stereotype of being a limp-wristed gay man who speaks with a lisp. While writers go in the opposite direction, they sometimes condemn some homosexual men who aren't or at least striving to become this socially constructed ideal of masculinity. There's this adage that stereotypes are incomplete characters so I would like to see a direction where a homosexual man isn't this "masculine" paragon many people find attractive and yet is written as a multi-faceted and well-developed companion (or even a protagonist) in video games. I guess this is something for the tropes thread as well, but I haven't really sat down and read through all the replies just yet.

I totally agree with you, well said. Avoidance of stereotypes for both gay men and lesbians has been touched on in the tropes thread, but I definitely think it could benefit from your addition, as well, if you feel like adding it sometime.  :)


#18554
Guest_Magick_*
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 07:18

Guest_Magick_*
  • Guests

Personally, I prefer a masculine female oppose to a girly one. In Dragon Age, I am willing to romance an androgynous/feminine male but so far I don't see any of that.


#18555
Maria Caliban
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 07:41

Maria Caliban
  • Members
  • 26 094 messages
I like all sorts of girls. I don't usually track how masculine or feminine male characters are, but I find the Dragon Age default tends to be very masculine, like many popular, modern franchisees.

#18556
Guest_Luther_*
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 07:47

Guest_Luther_*
  • Guests

I think you misunderstood my post, so I'm just going to cut to this. Sandal said he would rage if the last two options weren't bisexual. I replied that they wouldn't care because Gaider just said their obligation is only to offer 2 options. I've never said in any post that I thought what he said was evidence that the last two options will be heterosexuals. 

 

 

But you do assume that what Gaider said means what you said it means (i.e. Gaider and Bioware just don't care anymore once they meet a quota of 2 for all). I've given you other interpretations that are also valid in my previous post.

 

And you are assuming that it means something about what the final LIs will be (i.e. "anything that goes beyond 2 is fine with them as an imbalance") and that one should not have hope that they will be bi.  If that's not the case, then what's your point? "Proof" that Bioware and Gaider give zero frells about equality and representation?

 

The post of yours I quoted is a statement that you don't think Bioware cares or is interested in fairness anymore once 2 for each is represented. You said, "The Powers That Be have already made it clear that they don't care. Two vs any amount higher than two has the official Biower seal of fairness" and I understood that plainly enough. If you do think the last two LIs could be bi or gay, then why are you saying it's likely that Bioware doesn't even care (which, again, is your own interpretation of Gaider's words and not everyone's)? If you're trying to tell me that your statement "they don't care" isn't an assumption that the last two LIs won't be bi and will be either straight or gay, then what are you trying to say? If you think that even if they don't care, the final LIs could result in an equal split, then what is your point? Should we care that Bioware doesn't care or should we (if we agree that Bioware doesn't care, and I've made it clear in this post and prior ones that I do think they care)? What does your belief that Bioware doesn't care impy? Certainly you thought it implied something important enough to tell someone who thought there wouldn't be bi characters that Bioware doesn't care if they are or aren't? And if you don't fear that the last two LIs won't be bi or gay, why give others cause to worry? If you don't think Gaider's words imply anything about what the last two LIs will be, why are you hung up on them?

 

As it stands, the distribution for possible LIs for the Inquisitor goes like this:

Straight male Inquisitors: 2 options (Cassandra and Josephine)

Straight female: 2 options (Cullen and Iron Bull)

So, four options total for straight people, if you include both female and male protagonists

 

Gay female: 2 options (Sera and Josephine)

Gay male: 2 options (Dorian and Iron Bull)

Again, four options total for gay people, if you include both female and male protagonists

 

Bi female: 4 options (Cullen, Sera, Iron Bull, and Josephine)

Bi male: 4 options (Cassandra, Dorian, Iron Bull, and Josephine)

Excluding the overlap, that's a total of 6 options for bi, if you include both female and male protagonists

 

Meanwhile, there are 2 characters representing each sexual orientation (not including asexual):

2 gay (Dorian and Sera)

 

2 straight (Cassandra and Cullen)

 

2 bi (Iron Bull and Josephine)

 

That's equal.

 

In a prior post you stated that as a gay man you receive "consistently less" options and represention. Please explain, how is the above "consistently less" than DAO and DA2?

 

Moreover, if there are two more bi characters, then gay men and women could argue that they are underrepresented because a bi LI does not represent a gay LI, even if they can play a gay Inquisitor who can have a same-sex romance with him or her. Do you not see that? Adding two more bi characters does not keep things balanced. Nothing could. If you think it can, I'd love to see your math. Because, frankly, there is no way for the final LIs not to represent an imbalance. Two more bi LIs would mean that of the LIs two are gay, two are straight, and 4 are bi. It may not be "consistently less" but it isn't more either should the final LIs be both bi, wouldn't you agree?

 

Howevr, If the last two LIs are bi, then the options for Inquisitors of all sexual orientations does go up. I'll give you that.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if the last two options were gay, just to see the butthurt from certain homophobic straight male gamers.

 

Moreover, all of this is still more representation than genderqueer or trans people are getting.


  • SofaJockey aime ceci

#18557
SofaJockey
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 07:52

SofaJockey
  • Members
  • 6 000 messages

I think sections of this thread needs to calm down a bit.

 

BioWare is highly inclusive.

Beyond making sure that everyone has choices (as they now do) BioWare is entitled to write its stories without having to follow a quota system.

 

I respect people's wish to have even more choices, but to suggest that BioWare or specific writers do not care is unreasonable.


  • Ava Grey, Elanor, Lee80 et 3 autres aiment ceci

#18558
Guest_Luther_*
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 07:55

Guest_Luther_*
  • Guests
[snipped for space]

 

For someone who "doesn't care", you sure did post about the same thing an awful lot.

 

Oh and the mods are going to have a lot of fun with you. Surprisingly, mods make the rules and you don't. You can say you can do whatever you want, but ultimately the mods decide what's allowed and what isn't. I'm sorry your ego won't permit you to understand this, you iconoclast you.

 

Everything I said was in response to the post of yours I quoted and to others you've made in the last several pages. I asked questions, but you clearly do not like being asked questions about what and why you think. I'm sorry that critical thinking offends you so much that you must rely on personal attacks to "prove" me wrong.

 

Moreover, what you quoted is what I wrote before I edited my post. You can see the changes here. Not that I expect the response to be much different.


#18559
Bayonet Hipshot
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 08:05

Bayonet Hipshot
  • Members
  • 6 770 messages

Holy moly...

 

Where is the purge ? We need the purge now ! 


  • ahellbornlady et Mrs.Chestbeard aiment ceci

#18560
Nocte ad Mortem
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 08:12

Nocte ad Mortem
  • Members
  • 5 136 messages

But you do assume that what Gaider said means what you said it means (i.e. Gaider and Bioware just don't care anymore once they meet a quota of 2 for all). I've given you other interpretations that are also valid in my previous post.

 

And you are assuming that it means something about what the final LIs will be (i.e. "anything that goes beyond 2 is fine with them as an imbalance") and that one should not have hope that they will be bi.  If that's not the case, then what's your point? "Proof" that Bioware and Gaider give zero frells about equality and representation?

 

In a prior post you stated that as a gay man you receive "consistently less" options and represention. Please explain, how is the above "consistently less" than DAO and DA2?

Yes, I saw his posts as saying they don't see a problem with offering any imbalance as long as everyone gets two options. He clarifies and restates this sentiment. He later says that it may not be the case that there is imbalance, but he still says they don't have any priority to balance things any farther than offering everyone two options. 

 

I'm not assuming it means much about what the final LIs will be. They could be even by chance, or they could be imbalanced. They care enough about representation to offer everyone two options. They don't care about equality, no. Gaider said that offering equal options is not a priority.

 

I didn't say it was "consistently less" than DA:O and DA2? That sentence doesn't even make sense. Gays and lesbians have gotten consistently less options than straight players in Bioware games as a whole. There's never been a Bioware game to date that didn't have at least one extra love interest for straight players. The closest they came was DA2, which has Sebastian as an extra hetero romance. Most of their games have been substantially more slanted, more often not offering same-sex options than doing so. That doesn't mean Inquisition won't necessarily be equal. We, in fact, don't know that yet.

 

What my "point" was is exactly what I said it was. If the last two options are heterosexual, they will not care about anyone's "rage". They've already said we're free to disagree, but any expectation of equality beyond the existence of two options is not relevant to them. Whether the last two options are or are not bisexual isn't something I could know, because I'm not clairvoyant. Like I said, the post wasn't commentary on what they could be, but on the poster's possible reaction to what they could be. 


#18561
TheLastSuperSaiyan87
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 08:56

TheLastSuperSaiyan87
  • Members
  • 2 519 messages

Sigh the arguments/theories on here are so repetitive it almost makes coming here boring and no fun.


  • Saberchic, Lee80 et HuldraDancer aiment ceci

#18562
Guest_Luther_*
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 09:00

Guest_Luther_*
  • Guests

Yes, I saw his posts as saying they don't see a problem with offering any imbalance as long as everyone gets two options. He clarifies and restates this sentiment. He later says that it may not be the case that there is imbalance, but he still says they don't have any priority to balance things any farther than offering everyone two options. 

 

I'm not assuming it means much about what the final LIs will be. They could be even by chance, or they could be imbalanced. They care enough about representation to offer everyone two options. They don't care about equality, no. Gaider said that offering equal options is not a priority.

 

I didn't say it was "consistently less" than DA:O and DA2? That sentence doesn't even make sense. Gays and lesbians have gotten consistently less options than straight players in Bioware games as a whole. There's never been a Bioware game to date that didn't have at least one extra love interest for straight players. The closest they came was DA2, which has Sebastian as an extra hetero romance. Most of their games have been substantially more slanted, more often not offering same-sex options than doing so. That doesn't mean Inquisition won't necessarily be equal. We, in fact, don't know that yet.

 

What my "point" was is exactly what I said it was. If the last two options are heterosexual, they will not care about anyone's "rage". They've already said we're free to disagree, but any expectation of equality beyond the existence of two options is not relevant to them. Whether the last two options are or are not bisexual isn't something I could know, because I'm not clairvoyant. Like I said, the post wasn't commentary on what they could be, but on the poster's possible reaction to what they could be. 

 

But consider that if there are two more bi characters, then gay men and women could argue that they are underrepresented because a bi LI does not represent a gay LI, even if they can play a gay Inquisitor who can have a same-sex romance with him or her. I said that before, because one of my points is that adding two more bi characters does not keep things balanced. Nothing could. There is no way for the final LIs to prevent an imbalance.

 

Two more bi LIs would mean that of the LIs two are gay, two are straight, and 4 are bi. This imbalance you're worried about, and believe is inevitable because Gaider et al "don't care", will happen regardless of what the orientations of the last two LIs are. If they're bi, then they aren't gay. If they're straight, then they aren't gay or bi. That's why Gaider mentioned someone always "losing" out with DAI, or at least I think so. If one is straight and one is gay, then the bi community has one character less representing them than everyone else and can only have one of them as a new romance option, depending on the bi Inquisitor's gender.

 

If all you care about are options, then yes, one or two more gay or bi male or female characters would give some people more options. But I don't see how it can be perfectly distributed, which is the equality you want for DAI. Already, bi Inquisitors have twice as many options (4 for male or female) than a gay (2 for male or female) or straight (2 for male or female) Inquisitor. Two more bi characters, one male and one female, would give more options overall, but it would still be unequal. Unless you just don't care if bisexual Inquisitors have more options than anyone else? But that's still gay men and women, as well as straight men and women, with half as many options, no?

 

So before Gaider wrote a word, there was an imbalance in options, but not representation. You didn't have a problem then, and I do think you've latched onto this notion about Gaider's statements that he didn't intend or mean. So, this is partially where I'm coming from: you're speaking as if things are equal now in options and representation, but while they are equal in representation, they are not in options.

 

As for: "I didn't say it was "consistently less" than DA:O and DA2? That sentence doesn't even make sense. Gays and lesbians have gotten consistently less options than straight players in Bioware games as a whole." Isn't that the same thing? DAO and DA2 are part of the "Bioware games as a whole," no? You're right, I did take that phrase a bit out of context. Still, you said, "I'm not going to "be happy" that I'm assured maybe half as many options as other demographics." Which assumes knowledge of what the last two LIs will be--unless you were speaking just of prior DA games and not DAI. Because, at the moment, there is equal representation while straight and gay Inquisitors have the same options, but bisexuals have more. You go on to say, "To suggest I should be happy with consistently less is, in my opinion, ridiculous and I don't care if that opinion isn't popular." See, right there? That implied to me that the DA games are part of this trend of consistently less from a developer, Bioware, that you see as only wanting to assure you as getting only half of what other demographics receive is OK. And you say it's true that Bioware has had consistently less overall. But you're saying it's not true of recent games like DAO and DA2, yet true overall? That doesn't make sense because those two games comprise the only non-mobile games besides the three ME games that Bioware has released since 2007. So, this is an overall trend that only applies to one game series, i.e. ME?

 

Yeah, Bioware could do better. It can do better than it did in DA2 and ME3. I'm all for encouraging that. But let's be honest, saying there has been no relevant improvement or attempts at improvement, and that Gaider gives not a damn about equality (in Li options--which, as I've repeatedly shown, cannot be equal in DAI and isn't currently) or representation (as others, if maybe not you, think), is simply not true.

(It's worth noting that representation isn't just LIs. I think us in this romance thread might forget that. Although, we haven't had a lot in the way of explicitly gay companions that we can't romance or gay NPCs.)


#18563
Sylvianus
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 09:01

Sylvianus
  • Members
  • 7 776 messages

For someone who "doesn't care", you sure did post about the same thing an awful lot.

 

I will only answer to this, because this is the only thing worthy of my attention. The discussion around your points doesn't really interest me. I don't really care what you think. 

 

Because I like to discuss the subject ? Unequal options isn't fairness to me. This is what I think. This is my opinion and I'm going to share it if i want to, and you won't stop me to do such thing, you the poster, that's what I'm telling you. Deal with it.

 

Also, not being affected by the result doesn't mean I haven't an opinion on the matter. What is this ridiculous idea ? I never was affected by the fact that straight female gamers were screwed in M3, that didn't prevent me to support them when they complained in a lot of topics.  :huh: Why should I avoid the subject if I have an opinion and not have a strong opinion ? 

 

Now enjoy your debate lol.


#18564
TheLastSuperSaiyan87
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 09:03

TheLastSuperSaiyan87
  • Members
  • 2 519 messages

Why don't you guys debate something that hasn't been debated to death, like the romance options taste in food, or hair color or what pets they might like <.<


#18565
HuldraDancer
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 09:04

HuldraDancer
  • Members
  • 4 793 messages

Foodquisition?


#18566
TheLastSuperSaiyan87
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 09:06

TheLastSuperSaiyan87
  • Members
  • 2 519 messages

I'm all for it, its better than this endless beating of a dead horse debate.  Heck I'll go ahead and start

 

Sera- Spicy food (Peppers, hot chicken wings)

 

Dorian- Italian food (spaghetti) 

 

Iron Bull- Raw Meat 

 

Cassandra- Expensive food (Steak, lobster and some wine)

 

Josephine- Exotic food (escargot or something like that)

 

Cullen- Bland and dense food (Muffins, he comes across as a cake guy lol)


#18567
HuldraDancer
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 09:10

HuldraDancer
  • Members
  • 4 793 messages

I think we'll need more people that just us for it though but I can give it a shot ^_^

 

I'd think Sera would be something along the lines of the sourpatch kids candy

 

Iron Bull would probably be an over sized steak well done.


#18568
The Elder King
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 09:10

The Elder King
  • Members
  • 19 631 messages
I still hope that the last two LI are bisexuals, though we already had a hint that there won't the same number of choices for everyone when Gaider said during the race gate 'announcement' that some race-gender combo will have less options then others.

#18569
Lee80
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 09:13

Lee80
  • Members
  • 2 350 messages

I think we'll need more people that just us for it though but I can give it a shot ^_^

 

I'd think Sera would be something along the lines of the sourpatch kids candy

 

Iron Bull would probably be an over sized steak well done.

 

 

Dorian would be pringles, because the mustache man on the front...durrr...


#18570
HuldraDancer
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 09:16

HuldraDancer
  • Members
  • 4 793 messages

I'm all for it, its better than this endless beating of a dead horse debate.  Heck I'll go ahead and start

 

Sera- Spicy food (Peppers, hot chicken wings)

 

Dorian- Italian food (spaghetti) 

 

Iron Bull- Raw Meat 

 

Cassandra- Expensive food (Steak, lobster and some wine)

 

Josephine- Exotic food (escargot or something like that)

 

Cullen- Bland and dense food (Muffins, he comes across as a cake guy lol)

 

Why expensive stuff for Cassandra? Wouldn't that fit Vivienne better?


#18571
HuldraDancer
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 09:17

HuldraDancer
  • Members
  • 4 793 messages

Cullen hmmm yeah I'm going to go with white rice with a little bit a sugar. (my opinion only of course)

 

Blackwall would be a fine hardy ale a dark ale with lots of body.


#18572
Guest_Luther_*
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 09:18

Guest_Luther_*
  • Guests
[snip, in case this post is deleted too]

 

 

[...]

 

I did not, ever, say you could not post your opinion. But thinking that you're such an iconoclast that you can post whatever you want wherever? Get over yourself. This forum has rules, whether you like it or not.

 

"The discussion around your points doesn't really interest me. I don't really care what you think."

True, you've dismissed everything I said out of hand with personal attacks, but again: if you don't care what I think about anything, then surely nothing I saw is worthy of your time, correct?

 

"Because I like to discuss the subject ? Unequal options isn't fairness to me. This is what I think. This is my opinion and I'm going to share it if i want to, and you won't stop me to do such thing, you the poster, that's what I'm telling you. Deal with it."

 

I did. I wrote a response on the previous page. You ignored it to slam me with a large variety of insults and slurs. I don't like inequality either and this discussion also doesn't effect me, personally.

 

Except that it does. I have gay and lesbian friends. I would not be any kind of friend if it I didn't listen and empathize. Not saying you don't. But the points stands: as a straight person, you do not get to speak for gays, lesbians, or bisexuals, and say "they" must one thing or another. That's the only thing I said you couldn't do. That and the personal attacks. I never said anything about voicing opinions and making posts. Never once did I say you couldn't do that. That quote of mine you used in your last post? I was mocking your insistence that you don't care, about anything, and yet you keep responding. Oh, wait, wait, you're still responding for the lulz and the joke's on me, right? If anything, you only expose your inability to debate and you're obsession with trying to prove your superiority to me. Have fun with that.

 

"Also, not being affected by the result doesn't mean I haven't an opinion on the matter. What is this ridiculous idea ?"

That's true. And I never said anything that disagreed with that.

 

[...]


Modifié par BioWareMod04, 22 juillet 2014 - 10:48 .
removed inflammatory comments

#18573
TheLastSuperSaiyan87
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 09:18

TheLastSuperSaiyan87
  • Members
  • 2 519 messages

Why expensive stuff for Cassandra? Wouldn't that fit Vivienne better?

She's a noble isn't she? and Vivi isn't a confirmed love interest yet  :P so I had t give it to her for the time being 


#18574
HuldraDancer
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 09:21

HuldraDancer
  • Members
  • 4 793 messages

She's a noble isn't she? and Vivi isn't a confirmed love interest yet  :P so I had t give it to her for the time being 

I don't know I only keep up with the games so Cassandra being a noble is news to me^^; but if that's true its pretty sound logic I suppose  :lol:


#18575
TheLastSuperSaiyan87
Posté 22 juillet 2014 - 09:25

TheLastSuperSaiyan87
  • Members
  • 2 519 messages

I could of sworn I read a post where someone said she came from a noble family but idk I'm to tired to look lol


Retourner dans Story, Campaign, and Characters


  1. The BioWare Forum
  2. → Dragon Age
  3. → Dragon Age: Inquisition
  4. → Story, Campaign, and Characters