19658 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

Believe me, I know, but I think part of it was because the devs DID use that term "playersexual" rather than "bisexual" at the time, so instead we've got what is it.. two years (a year and a half?) of creator-endorsed mentality to unlearn. (If they bother to unlearn it.) I'm glad they've finally come out and taken a stance on the issue, but for someone like me, who does identify as bi, it's a little late in coming. When you add in a lot of the unfortunate tropes that are often associated with the bi LIs as well, it just feels a little disheartening to see that sort of language reinforce the idea that bisexuality is some sort of temporary thing on the way to deciding if you're straight or gay.

 

The issue mainly was one of there being two primary uses of the word here on the forums--and, with either use, it having a very different connotation anywhere outside of the forums.

 

When the term was first invoked, people on the forums were primarily using it in the connotation of "you are free to interpret the sexuality of the character however you wish, because not all of them contradict that in a given playthrough", I didn't mind it as much. That also covers viewing the term from a purely gameplay-oriented standpoint--as in "is this a same-sex romance or not?" being dictated by the gender of your player character.

 

It's later, when the term began to be used much more to refer to the sexuality of the character actually changing depending on the player character--so they're not bisexual at all, but rather straight in one playthrough and gay in the other (again, ignoring characters like Isabela or any other evidence when it became inconvenient to their usage)--that the word became distasteful to me. I cannot go back and change history regarding how it was first invoked, and the conversation that occurred at the time...but it's also pretty clear that many people aren't aware there is or was any other meaning for the term at all. Which is why I'd just rather it not be invoked at all, at this point.

[Rinji the Bearded]

I don't get the purpose of the poll.  We don't know who the last two LIs are, and popularity has nothing to do with... anything?  Except a popularity contest.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

As for Solas, honestly his look has really grown on me. He has beautiful features, really, if you get past OMGBALD. Which some people can't and, well, everyone has a preference, so that's their thing. I think the sharp angles of his features with his full lips and intense eyes make for a really appealing combination. I also prefer men that are more lithe than bulky. Solas is lovely, to me, really. I wouldn't complain about his appearance. 

[Chron0id]

As for Solas, honestly his look has really grown on me. He has beautiful features, really, if you get past OMGBALD. Which some people can't and, well, everyone has a preference, so that's their thing. I think the sharp angles of his features with his full lips and intense eyes make for a really appealing combination. I also prefer men that are more lithe than bulky. Solas is lovely, to me, really. I wouldn't complain about his appearance. 

An elf should never be bald.   That breaks a rule somewhere that is just....sacred. 

[Battlebloodmage]

I think the issue I have with the bisexual characters are they always prefer the opposite sex. Kaidan often comments on how beautiful females are, Zevran's tales are usually about females as well, Anders commented on the female warden and wanted to settle down with a female in Awakening, Fenris slept with Isabela while showing no interest in other males, Jack is bisexual based on some of her dialogues but she can only romanceable by males.

[karushna5]

leliana had a relationship with another woman. And even lightly flirts with Morrigan as she does a bit with all the LIs. Although she seems to be the exception

[LiquidLyrium]

The issue mainly was one of there being two primary uses of the word here on the forums--and, with either use, it having a very different connotation anywhere outside of the forums.

 

When the term was first invoked, people on the forums were primarily using it in the connotation of "you are free to interpret the sexuality of the character however you wish, because not all of them contradict that in a given playthrough", I didn't mind it as much. That also covers viewing the term from a purely gameplay-oriented standpoint--as in "is this a same-sex romance or not?" being dictated by the gender of your player character.

 

It's later, when the term began to be used much more to refer to the sexuality of the character actually changing depending on the player character--so they're not bisexual at all, but rather straight in one playthrough and gay in the other (again, ignoring characters like Isabela or any other evidence when it became inconvenient to their usage)--that the word became distasteful to me. I cannot go back and change history regarding how it was first invoked, and the conversation that occurred at the time...but it's also pretty clear that many people aren't aware there is or was any other meaning for the term at all. Which is why I'd just rather it not be invoked at all, at this point.

 

I'm not sure I see a meaningful distinction between the first point and the second, but thank you for the change in language regardless. (I do get the game-play point you mentioned though.)

[Former_Fiend]

An elf should never be bald.   That breaks a rule somewhere that is just....sacred. 

 

Nothing wrong with an elf being bald.

 

All of my elven wardens were bald.

 

Most of my mer dragonborn were bald.

[CuriousArtemis]

When you add in a lot of the unfortunate tropes that are often associated with the bi LIs as well, it just feels a little disheartening to see that sort of language reinforce the idea that bisexuality is some sort of temporary thing on the way to deciding if you're straight or gay.

 

I hear you here. I have a similar concern as a BL manga/anime fan; now there's some fantastic, beautiful, realistic BL manga out there, but sadly 95% of it is sh!tty tropes. So many instances of characters starting out straight and "turning" gay; sometimes after being practically raped by the future love interest. At first I rolled my eyes at this and thought, nobody could believe this is realistic, bah. But then I would encounter forums and the like where young people commented about how they believed this could really happen in real life, and how it was "so romantic," etc. 

 

So these kinds of representations really matter, if only because there are loads of really stupid kids out there lol

[Nocte ad Mortem]

leliana had a relationship with another woman. And even lightly flirts with Morrigan as she does a bit with all the LIs. Although she seems to be the exception

I think it's a lot more pronounced with the guys. 

[Phate Phoenix]

As for Solas, honestly his look has really grown on me. He has beautiful features, really, if you get past OMGBALD. Which some people can't and, well, everyone has a preference, so that's their thing. I think the sharp angles of his features with his full lips and intense eyes make for a really appealing combination. I also prefer men that are more lithe than bulky. Solas is lovely, to me, really. I wouldn't complain about his appearance. 

 

Agreed. I like his litheness, and I love the lines of his face--the way his brow connects to his nose, his high cheekbones, his pointed chin. The fact that he's bald just exaggerates that to me. He's very striking and I like that.

[zestalyn]

I want to give you double thumb up for this.

double thumbs up for you double thumbs up-ing   

I haven't been keeping tabs on this thread, is there a poll on romance going around?? Could someone repost the link? 

[David Gaider]

I'm not sure I see a meaningful distinction between the first point and the second, but thank you for the change in language regardless. (I do get the game-play point you mentioned though.)

 

The meaningful distinction is the first is about the player, and the player's perception, while the second is about the character, and suggests it's their sexuality which is subjective and not the player's perception of it... and thus also implies that bisexuality itself is subjective. Two very different connotations.

[CuriousArtemis]

An elf should never be bald.   That breaks a rule somewhere that is just....sacred. 

 

LOL!!! I feel the same Alas, they did not take our feelings into account

[mindoirs]

As for Solas, honestly his look has really grown on me. He has beautiful features, really, if you get past OMGBALD. Which some people can't and, well, everyone has a preference, so that's their thing. I think the sharp angles of his features with his full lips and intense eyes make for a really appealing combination. I also prefer men that are more lithe than bulky. Solas is lovely, to me, really. I wouldn't complain about his appearance. 

Agreed. Without his baldness...Solas isn't Solas. And he is very attractive regardless of whether he has hair or not. He has unique features that go with his rather unique personality.

[pallascedar]

An elf should never be bald.   That breaks a rule somewhere that is just....sacred. 

 

Yeah. Sacred to Lolth or something.

 

Solas is rockin that baldness.

[tmp7704]

It's later, when the term began to be used much more to refer to the sexuality of the character actually changing depending on the player character--so they're not bisexual at all, but rather straight in one playthrough and gay in the other (again, ignoring characters like Isabela or any other evidence when it became inconvenient to their usage)--that the word became distasteful to me.

The way I usually view the term is, "PC will turn that character on no matter the player's looks, gender and/or behavior, and short of beating with a stick nothing will discourage them from the romance". I.e. no gating, and sexual orientation that's potentially either undefined, or adjusting to accommodate whatever the PC's gender happens to be. If the character can be reasonably considered as bisexual (based on what the game shows and whatnot) then that latter aspect doesn't come into the picture.

[LiquidLyrium]

It's interesting that Solas is so popular. I'm kinda hoping he'll be a LI myself, because I can't get enough elf LIs haha, but most of the circles I run with have been saying that he gives off ace vibes. We'll soon see, I hope. Varric might be a nice option too. 

 

The meaningful distinction is the first is about the player, and the player's perception, while the second is about the character, and suggests it's their sexuality which is subjective and not the player's perception of it... and thus also implies that bisexuality itself is subjective. Two very different connotations.

Ah, I see now.

[CuriousArtemis]

The meaningful distinction is the first is about the player, and the player's perception, while the second is about the character, and suggests it's their sexuality which is subjective and not the player's perception of it... and thus also implies that bisexuality itself is subjective. Two very different connotations.

 

Yep, that's why I said as a writer I understood the concept of playersexuality. I rarely think of characters' sexuality being unchanging. But I've also changed a character's race and appearance recently... it's about whatever works in the narrative; the character's core never really changed. (I also gravitate towards writing fantasy worlds where race and sexuality don't matter.)

[Fialka]

LOL!!! I feel the same Alas, they did not take our feelings into account

Ahem,

*Points to David Gaider's avatar*

[Battlebloodmage]

I hear you here. I have a similar concern as a BL manga/anime fan; now there's some fantastic, beautiful, realistic BL manga out there, but sadly 95% of it is sh!tty tropes. So many instances of characters starting out straight and "turning" gay; sometimes after being practically raped by the future love interest. At first I rolled my eyes at this and thought, nobody could believe this is realistic, bah. But then I would encounter forums and the like where young people commented about how they believed this could really happen in real life, and how it was "so romantic," etc. 
 
So these kinds of representations really matter, if only because there are loads of really stupid kids out there lol

BL could be perceived as a softcore porn for women, so it's just fantasy. It's like some people finding a thousand years old guy stalking a young teenage girl to be romantic. I don't think they like for it to happen to them, but in a realm of fantasy, it's about deviate from the reality a bit. Although I don't get the fascination of conquering a "straight" guy in these BL genre, but it may have to do with homosexual relationship is still being perceived as taboo in Japan.

[CuriousArtemis]

Agreed. Without his baldness...Solas isn't Solas. And he is very attractive regardless of whether he has hair or not. He has unique features that go with his rather unique personality.

 

I think with a shaved head Solas could still be Solas. Just... something

[CuriousArtemis]

Ahem,

*Points to David Gaider's avatar*

 

What?! It has hair! Proves my point!

[javeart]

As for Solas, honestly his look has really grown on me. He has beautiful features, really, if you get past OMGBALD. Which some people can't and, well, everyone has a preference, so that's their thing. I think the sharp angles of his features with his full lips and intense eyes make for a really appealing combination. I also prefer men that are more lithe than bulky. Solas is lovely, to me, really. I wouldn't complain about his appearance. 

 

Just to be clear, my point was not to complain about Solas' appearance, it was more to say that Dorian is really good looking, and that I think that for most people the fact that he isn't white doesn't make him any less so. If that's so I'd be very surprised, really

[Sporothrix]

Hold the phone. I never said David was writing any lesbian characters, I used him as an example because he was able to write great straight romances and characters  that I enjoyed. Namely Alistair, Morrigan.

 

You personal opinion about gay men and their writing skills regarding lesbians aside... the point I was trying to make that it doesn't matter if there are any lesbian writers on staff. At Bioware, women write male characters, gays write straights, etc. etc. and I've never been able to tell who wrote who without looking it up on the wikia. I never thought ''well this guy was obviously written by a woman''.

 

Dorian is the first gay male character while David has been on board for both Dragon Age Origins and Dragon Age II. If they only picked out romance flavours based on their personal preferences, the palette would have been very different.

 

I really think you are being unfair to the writing staff.

 

A couple of days passed since this discussion and as I cooled down, I have to admit that I went too far. That remark about gay male writers mistreating lesbians, while pointing at actual problem that happens in Television reality, even if not having directly anything to do with any of the Bioware writers, was mentioned in response to that particular post also due to resentment I feel because of some of David Gaider's recent declarations.

 

I live in Poland, long story short, it's homophobic and sexist country. I fell victim of hate crimes numerous times. I treat videogames as escapist fantasy, and Dragon Age franchise was always special to me. Judging from how the treatment of LGB matters evolved from DAO to DA2 it really looked like equality, at least in this aspect, is the imperative.

 

When the discussions about the possibility that remaining LIs could be both men started, I've seen Gaider's earlier words quoted a couple of times, IIRC by Nocte ad Mortem, and those words really looked like the equal treatment in regard to sexuality is their main concern, while it's only race-gating that isn't considered a problem. Which I agree with, since you can romance only one LI in single playthrough anyway, and while species like dwarves, elves and qunari don't exist, gay men and lesbians do.

 

But then, Gaider himself spoke about the subject and pretty much denied everything I took for granted. He basically told us that we shouldn't expect equal treatment, but that's OK because there is content just for us, so we're not afterthought.

 

During last couple of months I've been increasingly infuriated when one after another TV show I followed introduced lesbian character only to make her fall into sexist and homophobic trope of lesbian sleeping with a man (like I mentioned before, half of those shows were run by gay men, so it felt like special kind of betrayal) so I suppose it all cumulated in me, had impact on how I reacted to those words. I've seen it as reminder that sure, I can have some nice things, but I will never be equal, like with, speaking of more serious matters, situation of civil parthership (which isn't legal in my country) vs marriage with the same rights. It's not the same level of course, but like I mentioned, I treat those games as escapist fantasy, to forget my situation for a moment. But then I'm reminded of it once again.

 

I suppose I jumped on a gun especially considering that everything may eventually play out just fine, though if that's the case, what would be the reason of such words? To remind us that we shouldn't have expectations?

Well, I have, and those games symbolize and mean a lot to me. If I offended someone, I'm sorry, but that's how I feel.