19658 réponses à ce sujet

[CrimsonN7]

Marjoline was never explicitly stated to be Leliana's lover.

Subtly implied though, or not so subtly Leliana likes to spin yarns. That relationship was more than professional, she was quite infatuated with her mentor.

[Maria Caliban]

Subtly implied though, or not so subtly Leliana likes to spin yarns. That relationship was more than professional, she was quite infatuated with her mentor.

Yes, I am sure they were lovers. I was just pointing out that we don't need explicit confirmation to know something.

[CrimsonN7]

Yes, I am sure they were lovers. I was just pointing out that we don't need explicit confirmation to know something.

Ah, forgive me then. I should really learn to read good in the future, or the fact that it is late over here, you can understand the derp I'm in.

[Nefla]

Are you really telling me that Solas is more "conventionally good looking" than Dorian because Dorian is darker? Is that suppossed to be something most people would agree about? Because it would really surprise me if that's the case

I think Solas is much more attractive than Dorian (which skintone does not factor into) I feel like people are unable to actually look at him and only see his baldness.

[HuldraDancer]

Whenever I look at Solas now all I can see is an angry puppy >>

 

*goes back to lurking*

[Ninjasplaycardgames2]

I just realized I don't want Varric to be bi.

 

Spoiler

I want him to be bi-curious

[Samahl]

I just realized I don't want Varric to be bi.

 

Spoiler

I want him to be bi-curious

 

Please no.

[Ninjasplaycardgames2]

:v

[Fialka]

Yeah it's this. Romance mind.

 

...

Huh.  I didn't pick up on that at all... I think the Taliesen thing is pretty clear (if mentioned just in passing) but I think this one is kind of vague and open to interpretation..  If it is true though, it means the ring he "proposes" to you with once belonged to a former lover? Real classy, Zev.   And I thought it was bad enough his token of affection came off a corpse...

[daveliam]

I always assumed that Zev had sexual relationships with both of those guys:  Taliesan and the prince who he got the earring from.  However, those are the only examples.   He's got many more examples of relationships with women, including flirting regularly with all three of the female party members (sans Shale).  It's one of the reasons that I've found his romance so distasteful; he's clearly more interested in women and it's even hinted that his s/s attraction is more a result of his assassin training than any natural attraction.  I know that he's got his fans, but I just find his romance to be frustrating and unsatisfying.  I'd rather not have my only male option show such a strong preference towards women.  It's like, "Oh, great.  Yeah, sure Zev tell me about another lady who you slept with before killing her.  And while you're at it, why don't you talk about Wynne's boobs.......again."

 

I think it's fine that the bisexual characters have mostly showed a preference, but I agree that the bisexual male characters have, without a doubt, all shown tendencies towards female preferences (the only ones that are somewhat debatable are the DA 2 guys, but Anders showed a strong female preference in DA: A and Fenris' only real attraction outside of Hawke is Isabela).  It would be nice to see a bisexual male who prefers males.  It's a little annoying to always feel like the second choice as it's a constant reminder that, outside of Steve and Dorian (obviously) and Fenris, the male romances are probably written with a female PC in mind and gay guys just get modified (and in some cases, less) content with pronoun swaps. 

[wright1978]

I'd prefer they don't have bi-sexual characters indicating overt preferences.

Really i don't see the Isabela/Leilana female preference that some see but its ambiguous enough that they can believe what they want to believe and so can I.

[Yinello]

I just realized I don't want Varric to be bi.

 

Spoiler

I want him to be bi-curious

 

Bike-curious?

 

I'll show myself out.

[Fialka]

Bike-curious?

 

I'll show myself out.

That made me think of this:

 

 

http://kelgrid.tumbl...d-and-had-wacky

[Samahl]

it's even hinted that his s/s attraction is more a result of his assassin training than any natural attraction.

 

This makes me a little uncomfortable. Sure, it's clear that Zevran's undiscerning nature (at least in part) is a survival technique/coping mechanism more than anything else, but that doesn't mean he still isn't bisexual underneath it all.

 

However, I do agree that DA's portrayal of bi people so far has been problematic so far in a number of ways (slightly improved in DA2 with Fenris and Merrill). I hope Iron Bull's the trend-breaker.

[Amirit]

The issue mainly was one of there being two primary uses of the word here on the forums--and, with either use, it having a very different connotation anywhere outside of the forums.
 
When the term was first invoked, people on the forums were primarily using it in the connotation of "you are free to interpret the sexuality of the character however you wish, because not all of them contradict that in a given playthrough", I didn't mind it as much. That also covers viewing the term from a purely gameplay-oriented standpoint--as in "is this a same-sex romance or not?" being dictated by the gender of your player character.
 
It's later, when the term began to be used much more to refer to the sexuality of the character actually changing depending on the player character--so they're not bisexual at all, but rather straight in one playthrough and gay in the other (again, ignoring characters like Isabela or any other evidence when it became inconvenient to their usage)--that the word became distasteful to me. I cannot go back and change history regarding how it was first invoked, and the conversation that occurred at the time...but it's also pretty clear that many people aren't aware there is or was any other meaning for the term at all. Which is why I'd just rather it not be invoked at all, at this point.

 
I am sorry, David, but you are the one (one of) to blame for it. You were the one (one of) repeatedly saying "they are not bi" about DA2 characters. Someone even collected your posts about the subject:
 
http://miricagale.tu...ragon-age-2-was

 

http://forum.bioware.../#entry12540939
 
1) The companions weren’t all bisexual in DA2. Two of them were. You being able to romance whoever you liked is not the same thing, outside of the idea that in some other reality you’re aware of the possibility that they might romance someone of a different gender.
 
http://forum.bioware...3#entry12584296
 
Once again— the romances are *not* “all bisexual”. While some people don’t like subjective sexuality, being aware of the fact some of your love interests could romance someone of the same gender in another game takes a back seat to fairness and fun gameplay.

 
So, for years you did let us believe in the subjective sexuality of 2 companions in DA2.

[Dean_the_Young]

There's a large power imbalance between Hawke and Merrill.

At some point I'd like to see the Bioware take on a romance arc that at least begins with the other party going along with it out of concern of what might happen if they didn't accept the PC's advances.

 

It would (hopefully) take a much brighter turn by the end, but the big twist or turn of the arc would be the realization that factors other than fondness or affection were dominant in the character responding to the player's advances. Playing through it your first time you'd think this was just another Bioware romance of the player initiating interest, but in retrospect you realize just how big the power imbalance was and the potential/implicit coercive power you held over the other person.

 

In the DAI context, it could be like if, say, the Inquisitor rescues a refugee family of orphans (say a sister and a brother, with the LI being the older caretaker) from a hellish warzone and takes them to the keep where they stick around and try to help out. If the player flirts with the caretaker, they go along with it however far the player takes it (even as far as bedding them the first night) because they are secretly afraid they and their charge will be thrown out if they don't. They hide the thoughts, so the player may think it's a genuine response of interest, but the potential reprisals for not being a happy and faithful and adoring love interest are the primary motivator for acting the part of a happy (not one will keep a miserable person around), faithful (no one will keep an unfaithful toy), and adoring (got to subtly stroke that ego) love interest.

 

 

By the end LI would realize/come to believe that the player character's interest was sincere, apologize for assuming malevolent coercion was ever intended, and a genuine relationship could form. Until then it would be a story of a person who is hyper-aware of the power imbalance and so goes along with an unsought relationship for all the worst romantic reasons but solid sensible concerns.

 

 

I imagine some players would miss the moral of the story completely by fixating on their viewpoint of having no malicious intent, some players would feel troubled but accept the forgiveness of the accidental offense because it could all work out happily in the end, and some would feel so ashamed of their role in the misunderstanding and accidental offense that they would never re-do the relationship and would question their own relationships by extension. And then there might be some people who have their respect  and/or interest in the character raised or lowered by the act of adopting the role of subordinate lover for such petty reasons (like that other family member).

 

It would be interesting to me, at least.

[Cat Fancy]

I always assumed that Zev had sexual relationships with both of those guys: Taliesan and the prince who he got the earring from. However, those are the only examples. He's got many more examples of relationships with women, including flirting regularly with all three of the female party members (sans Shale). It's one of the reasons that I've found his romance so distasteful; he's clearly more interested in women and it's even hinted that his s/s attraction is more a result of his assassin training than any natural attraction. I know that he's got his fans, but I just find his romance to be frustrating and unsatisfying. I'd rather not have my only male option show such a strong preference towards women. It's like, "Oh, great. Yeah, sure Zev tell me about another lady who you slept with before killing her. And while you're at it, why don't you talk about Wynne's boobs.......again."

I understand being uncomfortable with some aspects of how Zevran's bisexuality is presented, but I wouldn't expect a bi guy to have had equal or more male partners than female. There are just always going to be more willing female partners than male partners for a bisexual dude. (even if all Thedosian elves are somewhere between bisexual and gay) (I see no reason not to believe this is the case)

As for him not flirting with male companions, that's plausible to me because Ferelden is mildly homophobic and I don't think any of the male companions express interest in men, while all of the women (aside perhaps from Shale, who he doesn't flirt with, apparently) have at least had sex with dudes. And doesn't he flirt with Oghren, anyway? Might be misremembering that.

[CrimsonN7]

And doesn't he flirt with Oghren, anyway? Might be misremembering that.

Yeah he does and Oghren has a mini freakout, Zevran's teasing is quite amusing in that scene.

[Uirebhiril]

At some point I'd like to see the Bioware take on a romance arc that at least begins with the other party going along with it out of concern of what might happen if they didn't accept the PC's advances.

 

It would (hopefully) take a much brighter turn by the end, but the big twist or turn of the arc would be the realization that factors other than fondness or affection were dominant in the character responding to the player's advances. Playing through it your first time you'd think this was just another Bioware romance of the player initiating interest, but in retrospect you realize just how big the power imbalance was and the potential/implicit coercive power you held over the other person.

 

In the DAI context, it could be like if, say, the Inquisitor rescues a refugee family of orphans (say a sister and a brother, with the LI being the older caretaker) from a hellish warzone and takes them to the keep where they stick around and try to help out. If the player flirts with the caretaker, they go along with it however far the player takes it (even as far as bedding them the first night) because they are secretly afraid they and their charge will be thrown out if they don't. They hide the thoughts, so the player may think it's a genuine response of interest, but the potential reprisals for not being a happy and faithful and adoring love interest are the primary motivator for acting the part of a happy (not one will keep a miserable person around), faithful (no one will keep an unfaithful toy), and adoring (got to subtly stroke that ego) love interest.

 

 

By the end LI would realize/come to believe that the player character's interest was sincere, apologize for assuming malevolent coercion was ever intended, and a genuine relationship could form. Until then it would be a story of a person who is hyper-aware of the power imbalance and so goes along with an unsought relationship for all the worst romantic reasons but solid sensible concerns.

 

 

That there is a well known romance novel trope from the 80s that is called "thank you for raping me." The hero captures/rescues/saves the hapless leading lady character, with or without plot moppet younger sibling(s) and eventually ends up just happening to have sex with her. She is unwilling and uncertain, but secretly likes and wants it so they get their happily ever after in the end. No thanks.

 

I like that Bioware games have an element of morally gray thinking for some stuff, but that's not one I think we need to bring into it.

[Who Knows]

but I wouldn't expect a bi guy to have had equal or more male partners than female.

It's entirely possible.

So I see no reason why all of the bisexual men have to talk about women all the time and almost always only have history with women. And the history with men that they do have doesn't need to be hidden away.

[Xilizhra]

At some point I'd like to see the Bioware take on a romance arc that at least begins with the other party going along with it out of concern of what might happen if they didn't accept the PC's advances.

 

It would (hopefully) take a much brighter turn by the end, but the big twist or turn of the arc would be the realization that factors other than fondness or affection were dominant in the character responding to the player's advances. Playing through it your first time you'd think this was just another Bioware romance of the player initiating interest, but in retrospect you realize just how big the power imbalance was and the potential/implicit coercive power you held over the other person.

 

In the DAI context, it could be like if, say, the Inquisitor rescues a refugee family of orphans (say a sister and a brother, with the LI being the older caretaker) from a hellish warzone and takes them to the keep where they stick around and try to help out. If the player flirts with the caretaker, they go along with it however far the player takes it (even as far as bedding them the first night) because they are secretly afraid they and their charge will be thrown out if they don't. They hide the thoughts, so the player may think it's a genuine response of interest, but the potential reprisals for not being a happy and faithful and adoring love interest are the primary motivator for acting the part of a happy (not one will keep a miserable person around), faithful (no one will keep an unfaithful toy), and adoring (got to subtly stroke that ego) love interest.

 

 

By the end LI would realize/come to believe that the player character's interest was sincere, apologize for assuming malevolent coercion was ever intended, and a genuine relationship could form. Until then it would be a story of a person who is hyper-aware of the power imbalance and so goes along with an unsought relationship for all the worst romantic reasons but solid sensible concerns.

 

 

I imagine some players would miss the moral of the story completely by fixating on their viewpoint of having no malicious intent, some players would feel troubled but accept the forgiveness of the accidental offense because it could all work out happily in the end, and some would feel so ashamed of their role in the misunderstanding and accidental offense that they would never re-do the relationship and would question their own relationships by extension. And then there might be some people who have their respect  and/or interest in the character raised or lowered by the act of adopting the role of subordinate lover for such petty reasons (like that other family member).

 

It would be interesting to me, at least.

Sorry, I don't think I'm down with "accidentally rape someone until they love it."

[HuldraDancer]

That there is a well known romance novel trope from the 80s that is called "thank you for raping me." The hero captures/rescues/saves the hapless leading lady character, with or without plot moppet younger sibling(s) and eventually ends up just happening to have sex with her. She is unwilling and uncertain, but secretly likes and wants it so they get their happily ever after in the end. No thanks.

 

I like that Bioware games have an element of morally gray thinking for some stuff, but that's not one I think we need to bring into it.

That sounds like a scene from 'Hell Comes to Frog Town'  wheres Rowdy Roddy Piper's character rescues a woman from Frog town and the scientists lady gives her something to stop her from freaking out and Rowdy has sex with her while she's drugged up (I think to try and get her pregnant he's the only fertile guy in the movie its a plot point) and the next morning she is a aware of it but ehh its all cool with her and she's happy and stuff now. They don't hook up at the end or anything though so I'm not sure if its the same trope or a different one but it reminded me a lot of that.

 

Would not care for any LI getting with my PC because they feel they have to or else would make me feel very uncomfortable and icky.

[TK514]

That sounds like a scene from 'Hell Comes to Frog Town'  wheres Rowdy Roddy Piper's character rescues a woman from Frog town and the scientists lady gives her something to stop her from freaking out and Rowdy has sex with her while she's drugged up (I think to try and get her pregnant he's the only fertile guy in the movie its a plot point) and the next morning she is a aware of it but ehh its all cool with her and she's happy and stuff now. They don't hook up at the end or anything though so I'm not sure if its the same trope or a different one but it reminded me a lot of that.

 

Would not care for any LI getting with my PC because they feel they have to or else would make me feel very uncomfortable and icky.

 

Now there's a movie I haven't thought of in forever.

[Magdalena11]

The story of Sleeping Beauty a la Brothers Grimm illustrates that the kidnapping/rape trope was probably first drawn on the wall of a cave.  It hasn't done anything at all good for either gender, but it's part of European folklore.  There are all kinds of horrible things in those early fairy tales and reasonable people know that what works in a story will probably not work in the real world.

 

I've got some optimism that with work and understanding on all "sides," new cultures and traditions can replace the hurtful mindset of the past.  I doubt anyone living now will benefit from it, but maybe in a couple generations it might pay off, if we don't all nuke each other or drown in melting ice cap first.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Still no news, so I figure it's as good as anything to talk about. I noticed the survery got up to 2,200 votes over night and Vivienne climbed out of last place.. by a little. 

 

https://www.surveymo...eegWF76d5eBo%3d

 

I'm actually kind of surprised it managed to get 2,200+ votes, honestly.