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[Nocte ad Mortem]

well, the only dragon cult we see in DAO, was always Adrastian...a twisted, crazy vision of Andrastianism, but always Andraste.related...

by the way, there are quite a few different cultures even with the humans that would be very interesting to explore (at least a little more refreshing from the usual Andrastian. I didn't like Isabela, but I liked her little snip of Rivaini culture we could grasp from her gift conversation.)

Yeah, I'd like to see other places. Even places like Nevarra have their death rites that are unique, even if they're still technically an Andrastrian nation. Nevarra, Tevinter, Rivain and Seheron are all places I'd love to see, along with the lost dwarven city, Kal-Sharok. I really could stand not to see Ferelden again for several games and the Free Marches are basically more of the same, imo.

[Former_Fiend]

well, the only dragon cult we see in DAO, was always Adrastian...a twisted, crazy vision of Andrastianism, but always Andraste.related...

by the way, there are quite a few different cultures even with the humans that would be very interesting to explore (at least a little more refreshing from the usual Andrastian. I didn't like Isabela, but I liked her little snip of Rivaini culture we could grasp from her gift conversation.)

 

Most dragon cults are really old-god cults, aren't they?

 

At least I got the impression that the Disciples of Andraste were certainly a unique case.

[Felya87]

Most dragon cults are really old-god cults, aren't they?

 

At least I got the impression that the Disciples of Andraste were certainly a unique case.

 

probably depend on the kind of religion there is on the territory. I have this impressione the Dragon cultist are mostly twisted followers of a religion that became fanatics that put the Dragon in their religion, as if the Dragon somehow twist their original belief.

 

But it can just be my interpretation of the sacred ashes mission.

[LobselVith8]

Most dragon cults are really old-god cults, aren't they?

 

At least I got the impression that the Disciples of Andraste were certainly a unique case.

 

Brother Florian is the author of "Dragon Cults", and it's a bit sketchy, due to no one taking a member of a Dragon Cult alive. I'd presume it can vary, with some sects viewing specific dragons as gods, as opposed to following the original religion of the Imperium. There's also the mysteries regarding the relationship between the High Dragon and the human cultists, such as how it forms, why the dragon allows them to care for her young, and how the cultists even know that they can derive power from drinking from dragon blood.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I agree with this, In societies where religion has the kind of influence it has in medieval societies, I think a common religion would probably make different countries quite similar in cultural terms (of course, not identical, and there would still be differences, that if we're thinking about real history, btw, would probably be more local/regional than national, actually)

But you wouldn't call them culturally that religion. For example, you wouldn't call medieval Franch and Spain both "culturally Catholic" since other than a common religion they are very different. This is even more glaring in fictional worlds where the nations don't blend together as much. Calling Nevarra and Orlais both "culturally Andrastrian" for example is false since they are too different to say they are culturally the same. That's where my issue with calling all human nations in Thedas, and the people who live in them, culturally Andrastrian comes from. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Most dragon cults are really old-god cults, aren't they?

 

At least I got the impression that the Disciples of Andraste were certainly a unique case.

Yeah, they are the only dragon cult we've seen so far that mentions Andraste in a reverent tone. 

[Jazzpha]

Yeah, because they think the dragon is a physical avatar of Andraste/is Andraste herself.

 

Which I guess might qualify as a "Romance", in a really weird, David Lynch-style kind of twisted way. Kolgrim did seem to really, really like that dragon.

[javeart]

But you wouldn't call them culturally that religion. For example, you wouldn't call medieval Franch and Spain both "culturally Catholic" since other than a common religion they are very different. This is even more glaring in fictional worlds where the nations don't blend together as much. Calling Nevarra and Orlais both "culturally Andrastrian" for example is false since they are too different to say they are culturally the same. That's where my issue with calling all human nations in Thedas, and the people who live in them, culturally Andrastrian comes from. 

 

Well, if we're discussiong medieval history I might do it. Usually when you talk about Spain and France would be as part of what you could think of European history seen from inside, so to speak, and then differences btween the two would be more apparent, but if you are talking about the relationship between them and medieval islamic countries, it would definitely make sense to group them as "christian" countries and you realize that what could have been seen as huge differences are really minor differences, I think. 

 

It would be different though if we were talking about them nowadays, because the influence of reigions in cuntries like France or Spain (well, not so much in Spain...) is much smaller... And even so, people who might identify as atheist in Europe could still be very christian in the way s/he sees the world, even if s/he doesn't realize. What I mean is it's hard to overestimate the cultural influence of religion, IMO

[LobselVith8]

Yeah, because they think the dragon is a physical avatar of Andraste/is Andraste herself.

 

Which I guess might qualify as a "Romance", in a really weird, David Lynch-style kind of twisted way. Kolgrim did seem to really, really like that dragon.

 

Kolgrim's relationship with the Dragon Andraste is peculiar, but it's also the type of symbiotic relationship that Brother Florian addresses as part of the mystery behind the dragon cults: "Is there more to draconic intelligence than we have heretofore guessed at? No member of a dragon cult has ever been taken alive, and what accounts exist from the days of the Nevarran hunters record only mad rants and impossible tales of godhood."

[Jazzpha]

Kolgrim's relationship with the Dragon Andraste is peculiar, but it's also the type of symbiotic relationship that Brother Florian addresses as part of the mystery behind the dragon cults: "Is there more to draconic intelligence than we have heretofore guessed at? No member of a dragon cult has ever been taken alive, and what accounts exist from the days of the Nevarran hunters record only mad rants and impossible tales of godhood."

 

I've always seen dragons as smarter than your average animal, and most likely smarter than humans would feel comfortable acknowledging.

 

It takes more than brute strength to sustain a position as an apex predator, especially when your prey can harness the power of magic against you.

[Maria Caliban]

It's not any more disturbing than people using the straight content because they like to see people of opposite genders getting it on. Sexualization of characters is what it is. I imagine a lot of people do just do the romances, generally, because they want the story content, though. It's not exactly a satisfying pornographic experience.

It's a bit different when your sexuality is often wholly characterized as stuff for straight dudes to jerk-off to.
 

I've always wondered whether gay people view straight romances in the manner certain homophobes do.

*Gay person sees a man and a woman kissing*
*begins vomiting profusely*

That would make going to the movies very messy.

Rivaini aren't really andrastian. A good number of them are qunari, and those who aren't mainly hold to their own regional beliefs over the chant.

I also don't believe the avvars are andrastian, either.

I expect that most nations have pockets of pre-Chantry religions. Out of the way communities or ethnic groups that have never converted or who have grafted on Chantry religious iconography to their own beliefs.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

It's a bit different when your sexuality is often wholly characterized as stuff for straight dudes to jerk-off to.

It's not just a lesbian/straight man thing. Yaoi is gay males sexualized for female enjoyment primarily. There's plenty of slash fiction written just for that purpose. Women watch gay porn, too, but they don't tend to talk about porn as much as men, just generally. If you're a gay male, you'll probably get women telling you how "adorable" your relationships are sooner or later and fawning over you.

 

But the DA series doesn't particularly sexualize their relationships, as far as I've been aware. The vast majority of the interaction isn't overtly sexual. In DA2 they didn't even have "sex scenes". I think the amount of people using the romances as ****** material is probably pretty low, so it's not something I'm overly concerned about. I understand some of the complaints about the ME relationships being more overly sexualized. I feel pretty similarly about the issue as daveliam stated earlier. I'm not overly concerned about people playing the same sex romances because they'd rather see two women or two men kiss. If people were asking for more sexed up scenes, then I would say it started to cross the line. It becomes a problem when the content is being designed less as a credible relationship arc with the target audience (actual LGB people) in mind and more of a sexual fantasy for straight people. As is, I haven't seen it as much of a concern for the DA series.

[Maria Caliban]

It is a lesbian/straight man thing.

Straight women may fetishize gay men, but male sexuality (queer or not) is rarely depicted as existing solely for the pleasure of women.

[cjones91]

It is a lesbian/straight man thing.

Straight women may fetishize gay men, but male sexuality (queer or not) is rarely depicted as existing solely for the pleasure of women.

I'm guessing you never heard of Yaoi fan games,fanfic,or manga?There's a market for that which caters to straight females and trust me....the shipping of certain anime male characters is done by a majority of straight female fans.

[Maria Caliban]

I think I'm going to bow out of this conversation.

[Aimi]

But you wouldn't call them culturally that religion. For example, you wouldn't call medieval Franch and Spain both "culturally Catholic" since other than a common religion they are very different.

Referring to "Western Christian" ("Catholic" is a bit of a messy word to use before the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries) countries is actually quite common in medieval historiography. Characterizing the roles of French and Spanish prelates, rulers, and so on based on their common adherence to the Roman church is pretty useful in many circumstances.

Nobody would pretend that their Catholicism defines the entirety of Iberian and French culture in the medieval period. There are many other differences and many other similarities. But the reference is still useful in a limited sense.

[cjones91]

Did I say something wrong?

[Ryzaki]

I'm guessing you never heard of Yaoi fan games,fanfic,or manga?There's a market for that which caters to straight females and trust me....the shipping of certain anime male characters is done by a majority of straight female fans.

 

To be fair in such games are 1. uncommon and 2. Don't often end with the relationship being lesser in comparison to a m/f relationship (I.E a phase as shown often in the schoolgirl lesbian trope).

[Aimi]

Did I say something wrong?

Maria is saying that although queer male sexuality is fetishized by straight women, no one would seriously suggest that gay men only exist to cater to the desires of those yaoi-shipping straight women.

There are plenty of people who claim that lesbianism only exists in popular culture to cater to the desires of straight men.

[cjones91]

To be fair in such games are 1. uncommon and 2. Don't often end with the relationship being lesser in comparison to a m/f relationship (I.E a phase as shown often in the schoolgirl lesbian trope).

True,but my post was to show there was a market for such things that do cater to straight women.

[Ryzaki]

True,but my post was to show there was a market for such things that do cater to straight women.

 

There's a market for everything. That doesn't mean it's seen as for something to titillate woman outside of that.

[Kalamah]

True,but my post was to show there was a market for such things that do cater to straight women.

The point is more about power dynamics, though.

[cjones91]

Maria is saying that although queer male sexuality is fetishized by straight women, no one would seriously suggest that gay men only exist to cater to the desires of those yaoi-shipping straight women.

There are plenty of people who claim that lesbianism only exists in popular culture to cater to the desires of straight men.

I see,that's a fair point and one of the many double standards plaguing LGBT shown in media.

[WildOrchid]

 you'll probably get women telling you how "adorable" your relationships are sooner or later and fawning over you.

 

Better than getting told how hawt lesbians are (not the way women say usually about gay men, most of them find them cute and trust me, i do know. I'm in a fanbase that has a lot of yaoi love, whoever finds the anime gets a cookie) or suggesting a threesome or you need a real man, etc etc.

 

 

As much as gays get fetishized by straights, i'd give my left hand to hear more men telling me how 'cute' and 'adorable' lesbians are. But nah, we get the sleazy, stupid as hell comments.

 

*off topic mode off *

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Gay men aren't used as a sexual tool in media as often as women. Mostly, gay men are totally desexualized in media. The most common use is just the usual quippy, flamboyant Hollywood gay. That's usually in romantic comedies or other genres where he only exists for comic relief. In media where gay men are in sexual situation, which is admittedly extremely rare, it's not all that uncommon for the writers to consider they'll have a large female audience. In the early 2000's US version of Queer As Folk, one of the only gay male focused pieces of media, it's widely believed that they shifted the original British show's focus on the nerdy, more relateable main character to the charismatic ad exec and his very pretty, blond bombshell boyfriend (the basic stoic, reluctant to commit top/cute, persistent bottom dynamic popular in most female oriented gay fiction) because they realized the vast majority of their audience was actually straight females and they didn't want to see ad exec with the nerdy guy.

 

I'm not saying that it's exactly the same as straight men/lesbians, but I think it would be wrong to assume that media with gay males isn't often tailored for women. A huge amount of it is, both the quippy gay men that exist to comically empower female leads and arguably situations like the latter I mentioned.