885 réponses à ce sujet

[von uber]

And had the Asari revealed that artefact earlier, its possible the fleets and crucible would've been taken to the serpent nebula where the Citadel is for it to fire its beam of magic.

 

Yes, but it would be a short game then wouldn't it.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I remember Shepard talking a lot about taking Earth back and all, but other species don't do that for Earth. Garrus has a dialogue when he mentions advising the Primarch to retreat, to save forces for the final assault and that Crucible is their only hope now. The whole war centers on the Crucible, it's the only reason the other races help you.  I don't think it would matter to where does the Crucible fire (and if it does matter in terms of collateral damage, the other species are more than willing to make a test run on Earth).

 

Shepard talks about the Crucible for Mars and the bit with the Council after that, then it gets pretty much ignored until Thessia. The Primarch and Geth/Quarian representatives don't say anything about it except for an off-hand remark at the end of their missions about sending a few engineers to work on the thing. It's not driving the plot forward until we're told it's in the Asari temple; until then we're securing conventional assets for some plan to attack Earth (Krogans to help the Turians, Turians for their big fleet, and Quarians for logistics), not for workers or scientists, not for ships to secure shipping lanes or mining facilities, not for security -- unless Hackett somehow knew the Reapers would kidnap the Citadel and bring it to Earth to conveniently tie up all loose ends.

[Vazgen]

Shepard talks about the Crucible for Mars and the bit with the Council after that, then it gets pretty much ignored until Thessia. The Primarch and Geth/Quarian representatives don't say anything about it except for an off-hand remark at the end of their missions about sending a few engineers to work on the thing. It's not driving the plot forward until we're told it's in the Asari temple; until then we're securing conventional assets for some plan to attack Earth (Krogans to help the Turians, Turians for their big fleet, and Quarians for logistics), not for workers or scientists, not for ships to secure shipping lanes or mining facilities, not for security -- unless Hackett somehow knew the Reapers would kidnap the Citadel and bring it to Earth to conveniently tie up all loose ends.

That's the dialogue I mentioned

Shepard and Hackett are doing it for Earth and humanity (naturally). Other races do it for their own homeworlds, they count on the Crucible. Because of the Shepard's actions, the Crucible would've been first used to save Earth (before they learned about the Catalyst) and then moved to the other systems (based on the result).

[themikefest]

Yes, but it would be a short game then wouldn't it.

It would. But look how many lives would/could be saved.

[von uber]

It would. But look how many lives would/could be saved.

 

You could say the same about a lot of things. Had they taken the threat seriously in ME1 and the Alliance scoured the Mars archives then it would be over even quicker, wouldn't it.

[Livi14]

Yes, but it would be a short game then wouldn't it.

Thessia is where the game went downhill, missing Horizon and Cronos wouldn't be so bad. And the Reapers would have moved the citadel anyway. The showdown would still be on Earth.

As to the overall topic, the Reapers not attacking the Citadel first thing, then going after it offscreen and effortlessly moving it back to Earth is absurd.

[themikefest]

You could say the same about a lot of things. Had they taken the threat seriously in ME1 and the Alliance scoured the Mars archives then it would be over even quicker, wouldn't it.

Or if the asari actually did a proper search of the citadel when they discovered it, they would've found the decision chamber and the area that Shepard walks through to get where Anderson is, and possibley discover how the keepers do what they do.

 

The ME1 characters could've done something instead of scattering like cockroaches all over the galaxy doing whatever. How hard would it be for Anderson to have Joker fly a shuttle around with T'soni, Ashley/Kaidan and Garrus and the others  to Eden Prime to find anything more or even have them go to Mars. Had the asari revealed that beacon back when Shepard was after Saren, a lot more lives would've been saved.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Or if the asari actually did a proper search of the citadel when they discovered it, they would've found the decision chamber and the area that Shepard walks through to get where Anderson is, and possibley discover how the keepers do what they do.

 

To be fair it's stated that the Reapers designed the Citadel to prevent people from doing exactly that. The Asari and Salarians have been researching the place for possibly hundreds of years without finding anything.

 

You could say the same about a lot of things. Had they taken the threat seriously in ME1 and the Alliance scoured the Mars archives then it would be over even quicker, wouldn't it.

 

The status of the Mars archives are one of the things that's never been kept particularly consistent. In ME1 and I think in the earlier Drew K. novels the Mars ruins are stated to be tiny, as the facility was only a small observation outpost for watching early humanity. The excavators had found almost everything but the main problem was that the technology was either encrypted or decayed (I vaguely remember an excerpt stating that decryption may have been impossible). In later installments it takes on the size of a labyrinth.

[themikefest]

To be fair it's stated that the Reapers designed the Citadel to prevent people from doing exactly that. The Asari and Salarians have been researching the place for possibly hundreds of years without finding anything.

 

Is there anything to suggest that they were researching anything about the Citadel?

 

I would never move into somethiing without knowing the origins and purpose of what the bugs do outside of what is seen. I'm surprised it never occured to them that the owners may of been on vacation and might return. I guess if nobody is around, its ok to move in.

[KaiserShep]

Is there anything to suggest that they were researching anything about the Citadel?

 

I would never move into somethiing without knowing the origins and purpose of what the bugs do outside of what is seen. I'm surprised it never occured to them that the owners may of been on vacation and might return. I guess if nobody is around, its ok to move in.

 

Regarding researching the Citadel, I'm firmly of the belief that whatever they did was grossly insufficient. It's not like the Citadel is magic. Give enough time and enough determination, and any technology can be cracked, no matter how advanced. What the Citadel provided was complacency, since the keepers were there to ensure that people just didn't feel the need to delve further into its inner workings. If the keepers weren't there, then people would have had to figure out how to maintain it themselves and they would have figured it out and the reapers' trap would have fallen apart, or even leave them vulnerable to being found in dark space. Of course, then they went ass backwards by making laws against investigating the keepers, effectively enforcing ignorance on the entire population. In that situation, if I was in Chorban's place, I would have actively sought to disobey just about every law there was to study the Citadel and its systems.

 

As for whether or not they considered the original inhabitants of the Citadel returning, it's likely what they did, but then that would beg the question as to why everyone, save for the bugs, would leave the Citadel in the first place. The thing can easily support life for over a million people. You'd think that even if most of them left, there would be some to stay behind and hold the fort.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Judging by what I have observed, I would say that nobody ever bothered to research anything on the Citadel... before Chorban, of course.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Regarding researching the Citadel, I'm firmly of the belief that whatever they did was grossly insufficient. It's not like the Citadel is magic. Give enough time and enough determination, and any technology can be cracked, no matter how advanced. What the Citadel provided was complacency, since the keepers were there to ensure that people just didn't feel the need to delve further into its inner workings. If the keepers weren't there, then people would have had to figure out how to maintain it themselves and they would have figured it out and the reapers' trap would have fallen apart, or even leave them vulnerable to being found in dark space. Of course, then they went ass backwards by making laws against investigating the keepers, effectively enforcing ignorance on the entire population. In that situation, if I was in Chorban's place, I would have actively sought to disobey just about every law there was to study the Citadel and its systems.

 

As for whether or not they considered the original inhabitants of the Citadel returning, it's likely what they did, but then that would beg the question as to why everyone, save for the bugs, would leave the Citadel in the first place. The thing can easily support life for over a million people. You'd think that even if most of them left, there would be some to stay behind and hold the fort.

 

Whatever they did was woefully inadequate so that Shepard would look intelligent. The Asari were living on it since Caesar, and the Salarians since around the time of the Fall of Rome. It was like... "Oh here's this quaint space station out in the middle of nowhere. It has a breathable atmosphere, ponds, even flowers! And there are these cute litte creatures that seem to take care of it. There's no one living on it either. The rent appears to be free. Let's say we move right in. Thank you Goddess Athame for providing us with this gift."

 

Then the Salarians show up and think the Asari are goddesses. If there's one thing I learned from watching "Ghostbusters" is that if someone asks you if you are a god you answer "Yes." So, the Salarians fess up and say they got their technology from an ancient artifact on their world. The Asari, having played the Goddess card, decide to say that they learned all these skills on their own. However, the Salarians and the Asari (the Goddesses) decide that when they formed the first Galactic Council, that they would require any new member to share all knowledge gained from any "Prothean Artifacts."

 

This worked out well for the Asari for almost 2000 years, so you really can't blame them for keeping their source of knowledge secret. It was a sound strategy and gave them an economic and military leg up on everyone until the reapers showed up.

 

Granted moving right in like that without a thorough investigation of the Citadel to find out why it was vacant in the first place was a bit dense. You can blame the Salarians, and the Turians who followed them.

 

What I find extremely strange is that over the course of 2000 years, no one ever found one Prothean Beacon, or that these Archives contained nothing about the Reapers. Liara's Archives did. The Protheans were so careful to make sure that the next cycle was prepared with technology, and had the plans for the Crucible in the Mars Archives, and some VI in the Thessia Archives, but didn't bother to put anything about the Reapers attacking and wiping them out in either of them? Don't you find this odd?

 

These are yet other places in the Mass Effect plot where one can do nothing but shake ones head at the huge ass pull and plot hole surrounding the existence of the Crucible itself. Just don't think about it. You'll fall into the bottom of the canyon with Wile E Coyote. Drew and Mac ordered the plot from ACME, and that's the end of it.

[ImaginaryMatter]

According to Chorban the Keeper's had been experimented on in the past and the current laws were only put in place after such experiments proofed unfruitful. It has also been stated that parts of the support infrastructure had been investigated but that other segments of the station, like where the Keepers come from, have never been found. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that there was a large amount of exploration and even suspicion when the station was discovered but after centuries of living on the station with no major hiccups, such endeavors probably proofed too taxing or detrimental for a system that worked perfectly fine.

[TheMyron]

My dear Imaginary, it's "proved", not "proofed".

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well there are protein vats from where the Keepers are made. Bailey mentions them IIRC, so it's not like they haven't investigated. The Citadel machinery somehow creates them. They're mysterious creatures that turn to dust if you start poking them. Hence the laws "please don't disturb the keepers."

 

There's the ward arms which seem to be fine, but everything mysterious seems to be in the Citadel Tower and the Presidium Ring. They suck people up into the Citadel Tower and make reapers out of them. And all the Council chamber stuff is on the upper levels of the tower where that big window is. Elsewhere on the tower we've never seen what's there - It's probably reaper making stuff and probably Starbrat. And from the tower there's that arm that connects it to the ring. That's the long elevator ride from the ring to the Council Chambers.

[Barquiel]

Judging by what I have observed, I would say that nobody ever bothered to research anything on the Citadel... before Chorban, of course.

 

I don't know...I mean, countless cycles and races have used the citadel. It's hard to accept that nobody bothered to research anything on the citadel.

[Dale]

ME3 (Mars - Shep dialogue with TIM)

Shepard: I've seen your "solution"; your people are turned into monsters! [referring to a recent encounter with a dead, half-husk, half-human Cerberus Trooper]

TIM: Hardly. They're being improved.

 

(I know you TIM lovers out there can't wait to be "improved")

 

 

ME2 (end of Arrival DLC)

Collector General: your leaders will beg to be harvested

 

(I'm trying to comprehend the reaper's [absurd] point of view (programming).  When indoctrinated TIM got shot, before he croaked, he said (more or less) "look at the earth -- it's just perfect/beautiful")

 

NOT ABSURD ENDING:

 

• CONTROL or DESTROY Shep lives.  
•  
• Citadel Party
•  
• End of game
•  
• Bioware gets a 98 metascore for ME3 - & "game of the year" award & more money than they know what to do with.
•  
• ME4 can start with new characters if they want -- going after Leviathan (else Catalyst 2) since they claim "no mistake".  
•  
• 95% loyal fan base & buying customers

 

Ahhhh...let the discussion on Bad Writing Theory (BWT) continue

[ImaginaryMatter]

 

ME3 (Mars - Shep dialogue with TIM)

Shepard: I've seen your "solution"; your people are turned into monsters! [referring to a recent encounter with a dead, half-husk, half-human Cerberus Trooper]

TIM: Hardly. They're being improved.

 

I know TIM's brain had turned to Indoctrinated mush by this point in the story but I've never seen how the Cerberus troops are improved. Actual husks aren't really improved in any way. They certainly aren't smarter because Shepard manages to trick them into sending the tram over... and then they decided to keep sending trams over. And in combat most of their strength seems to be a technological advantage.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

"... a real god, as a verb"

 

"Stealing from the dead?  That's low." *fails to mention the fact that Shepard stops to steal from bank accounts, ATMs, and wall safes every two seconds*

[Vazgen]

I know TIM's brain had turned to Indoctrinated mush by this point in the story but I've never seen how the Cerberus troops are improved. Actual husks aren't really improved in any way. They certainly aren't smarter because Shepard manages to trick them into sending the tram over... and then they decided to keep sending trams over. And in combat most of their strength seems to be a technological advantage.

Perhaps they are "improved" in terms of losing emotions and doubts, becoming completely loyal and obeying orders without question. On Cerberus Lab mission there are two logs that show the change:

 

Pre-"Integration" entry:

 

Personal Log: C. Talavi

Finally here. Wow, the troops here are really intense. No one smiles. Ever. And suicide on capture orders? Seriously? They call training "integration." I start being "integrated" tomorrow. Can't wait.

 

Post-"Integration" entry:

 

Personal Log: C. Talavi

Integration successful. Suicide on capture orders confirmed. Cerberus is my friend. Obey. Protect humanity. At any cost.

[DesioPL]

The most annoying absurd, is about throw away Dark Energy topic, which is more important than war showed in ME3.

 

The whole ME2 storyline at some points, is concentrated on Dark Energy, even Veetor mentioned much about it, or Tali durning Haestrom mission. What happend with this? After Drew Kaphsryn leave Bioware, the Dark Energy seems to be forgotten for those, who write story for ME3. And who write story for ME3?

 

By Mac Walters of course.

 

As long i do not care anymore about endings, i will still complain about throwing away Dark Energy topic, since as i said. In ME2 was a one of important topics, and boom! In ME3 this topic is gone.

[Farangbaa]

The whole ME2 storyline at some points, is concentrated on Dark Energy, even Veetor mentioned much about it, or Tali durning Haestrom mission. What happend with this? After Drew Kaphsryn leave Bioware, the Dark Energy seems to be forgotten for those, who write story for ME3. And who write story for ME3?

 

 

The whole ME2 storyline at some points.

 

 

DE is only a minor part of ME2 which can easily be thrown away. ME2 in itself can easily be thrown away

[KaiserShep]

The problem with the argument that the DE plot was not a major part of ME2 is that ME2's major plot development starts and ends in that game, so as the middle chapter closes, it's all that's left in a series where we are no closer to anything resembling a resolution, at least until we're offered up a device that runs on refined asspullium. While I don't lament the loss of the whole dark energy shenanigans, considering where it was likely going to end up, I really don't like the middle chapter of a trilogy to feel so disposable all around.

[Farangbaa]

The problem with the argument that the DE plot was not a major part of ME2 is that ME2's major plot development starts and ends in that game, so as the middle chapter closes, it's all that's left in a series where we are no closer to anything resembling a resolution, at least until we're offered up a device that runs on refined asspullium. While I don't lament the loss of the whole dark energy shenanigans, considering where it was likely going to end up, I really don't like the middle chapter of a trilogy to feel so disposable all around.

 

But it's the best game ever and all the bad stuff starts in ME3. Geez, get with the times.

[Khemikael]

[...]

NOT ABSURD ENDING:

 

• CONTROL or DESTROY Shep lives.  
•  
• Citadel Party
•  
• End of game
•  
• Bioware gets a 98 metascore for ME3 - & "game of the year" award & more money than they know what to do with.
•  
• ME4 can start with new characters if they want -- going after Leviathan (else Catalyst 2) since they claim "no mistake".  
•  
• 95% loyal fan base & buying customers

 

[...]

 

And Shepard left the Citadel with a space-pony-unicorn and an escort of Carebears. The crucible fired a rainbow-colored beam that destroyed the reapers with the mighty power of friendship and love.