143 réponses à ce sujet

[Provi-dance]

Meet Bioware's favorite character: Asymmetrical Combat Mechanics. 

 

 

So what do you think about ACM? A character that's been introduced by Bioware several years ago.

 

If you like it, why do you like it? If you don't, why? 

Do you like it because, I don't know, it makes you feel rather special that you and your companions are the only humanoid beings in the world that are able to attack so such much fast&furious? Although, isn't knowing that your HP pool is crippled, several times smaller than that of your average enemy, somewhat damaging to this whole power trip, hm? 

Who wants to "wait one hour to cast a spell", right? When you can shoot little magic bolts from your hand at the speed of light or swing your two-handed sword a bit faster.

 

 

Oh yes, I must not forget something. I've read some opinions about the demos, basically saying that it's likely that they've shown stuff that, combat wise, is not representative of the final game, at all.

Indeed, it's possible that Bioware decided to show a gameplay demo, a few months before release, with combat that's not representative of the combat that will be available from October 7th.

Therefore it's possible that now we're seeing enemy humans in DA:I with 5x more HP, 10x less damage and 10x slower attack speed, for gameplay and tactical combat showcase purposes, but by October they'll be gone. What do you think?

 

 

 

[pdusen]

Uh... I'm indifferent?

[Eudaemonium]

Well, the demo was probably in Easy and everyone had massive damage and infinite health and mana, so I'm going to hold off judgement on this for a while at least.

 

That said, the mechanics bothered me in DA2 a lot, mostly since I played on Nightmare and the bizarre balancing system meant I constantly one-shotted my own party. (*damn you Fenris~~~*) Overall, I'd like more symmetry in DA:I.

[Moussey]

I don't get your point. It's a video game.

Of course they'll have you suspend your belief everytime there's a combat sequence just so there's good pacing and a fair amount of challenge for every battle. Every rpg and video game ever works this way. If it doesn't feel right adjust the difficulty or learn how to play with scripting and stats.

[Provi-dance]

Uh... I'm indifferent?

 

Commenting is the best way to showcase your indifference.

 

I don't get your point. It's a video game.

Of course they'll have you suspend your belief everytime there's a combat sequence just so there's good pacing and a fair amount of challenge for every battle. Every rpg and video game ever works this way. If it doesn't feel right adjust the difficulty or learn how to play with scripting and stats.

 

What do you not get?

 

Indeed, there's magic, there's fireballs.. so, I assume, everything else could be upside down and I shouldn't be bothered by it? Is that your point?

If I'm not bothered by magic or people not dying in one hit, I shouldn't be bothered by asymmetrical combat mechanics or people walking on their hands as the default behavior, yes? 'Coz fireballs?

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with difficulty.

[Althix]

in DAO speed of the mobs and the characters in some kind of synergy, same speed, same moves.

 

in DA2 there is no synergy between the charactes and mobs. Player is faster, players is making move moves per second, player is making more damage in general. to match this, mobs are nothing more than a health pools, or damage sponges. This is why combat mechanics of DA2 is so lame, and at the end, it's just a button mashing by cooldown.

 

DAI have combat mechanics of DA2, it's a failure right there.

[Ophir147]

It's necessary if you stop even for a second and imagine how incredibly boring it would be to always fight 4 people at a time, and each group of enemies would have at least one heavily armored warrior (that can use abilities that will Taunt your companions into only being able to attack him, taking control of the action away from the player), one rogue that can insta-kill your mages from stealth, and one mage that can heal all of the others.

 

The power that is important to give to the player is not the same power that is important to give to the AI. Good encounter design is all that matters when designing enemies, whereas is it extremely important to impart a feeling of control (at least over the battlefield) to the player. 

 

It consistently vexes me how there are people who see areas in which DA2 actually failed (reuse of environments, afterthought time-wasting fetch quests, laughable story quality of Act 3) and claim that, because it was a failure in these aspects, everything about it was terrible. The combat in DA2 was better and it was more tactical, and if you kids ever left Normal/Hard mode you would realize that.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Could you speak clearer please? I can't understand what it is you're saying. Too many broken sentences/points that don't really congeal into a coherent statement, at least from my point of view.

[Deflagratio]

Meet Bioware's favorite character: Asymmetrical Combat Mechanics. 

 

 

So what do you think about ACM? A character that's been introduced by Bioware several years ago.

 

If you like it, why do you like it? If you don't, why? 

Do you like it because, I don't know, it makes you feel rather special that you and your companions are the only humanoid beings in the world that are able to attack so such much fast&furious? Although, isn't knowing that your HP pool is crippled, several times smaller than that of your average enemy, somewhat damaging to this whole power trip, hm? 

Who wants to "wait one hour to cast a spell", right? When you can shoot little magic bolts from your hand at the speed of light or swing your two-handed sword a bit faster.

 

 

Oh yes, I must not forget something. I've read some opinions about the demos, basically saying that it's likely that they've shown stuff that, combat wise, is not representative of the final game, at all.

Indeed, it's possible that Bioware decided to show a gameplay demo, a few months before release, with combat that's not representative of the combat that will be available from October 7th.

Therefore it's possible that now we're seeing enemy humans in DA:I with 5x more HP, 10x less damage and 10x slower attack speed, for gameplay and tactical combat showcase purposes, but by October they'll be gone. What do you think?

 

[Elhanan]

Personally, I turn a lot of the Feedback off in my games, as the XP and Damage indicators are somewhat distracting.

I do not mind power and combos at all, though I infrequently use them. What is not my favorite are the MMO-like Talents seen in some demos, but if these are optional, they will not be seen in my game. Problem solved.

The faster paced combat of DA2 was far more visceral and immersive for me, when compared to the chopping wood timing of the 2H default swings of DAO. I do agree that it was too fast, and DAI appears to still be too quick for my preferences, but is still better than the previous titles.

A bit too hurried and busy with the FX, but I am pleased overall.

[Warlock]

I'm not saying I like it, but... what alternative do you suggest? Considering the shortcomings of "Symmetrical Combat Mechanics" others have pointed out, which rpg do you think has nailed this down? I'm seriously asking, because I've never known one that does what you seem to be wanting correctly.

[Deflagratio]

I'm not saying I like it, but... what alternative do you suggest? Considering the shortcomings of "Symmetrical Combat Mechanics" others have pointed out, which rpg do you think has nailed this down? I'm seriously asking, because I've never known one that does what you seem to be wanting correctly.

 

That's what short-sighted people forget. Combat against the AI is always asymmetrical because the AI is not a thinking human being, nor does the AI have the "Reload" option. (Unless you count lock-ups)

 

I can't comment on combat pacing until I play the game. The demo is paced and balanced specifically to a purpose that doesn't represent final gameplay, but a demonstration of theory and direction.

[Provi-dance]

It's necessary if you stop even for a second and imagine how incredibly boring it would be to always fight 4 people at a time, and each group of enemies would have at least one heavily armored warrior (that can use abilities that will Taunt your companions into only being able to attack him, taking control of the action away from the player), one rogue that can insta-kill your mages from stealth, and one mage that can heal all of the others.

 

 

So that's how you imagine a symmetrical combat system? Interesting. 

 

Could you speak clearer please? I can't understand what it is you're saying. Too many broken sentences/points that don't really congeal into a coherent statement, at least from my point of view.

 

I don't believe that I, or anyone else, would be able to improve your cognition. Sorry.

 

 

@Deflagratio. Holding a grudge for so long must be devastating for your health. I'm sorry I hurt you.   

Oh, this is not about AI. AI is one thing, combat mechanics are another, for realsies.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Also, DAO's combat was made of utter fail, and was actually asymmetrical as well, with the enemies having better controls than the player did over their characters. For example, archers in DAO didn't need to shuffle up to the front lines to shot their weapons at you, but you as the player would have your character automatically march itself right up to their face, no matter what you did, whenever you tried to shoot the enemy in a place the combat mechanic didn't like you shooting from, like say 20 feet while standing on a hill.

[Warlock]

So please, "enlighten" us with what you imagine an rpg using a SCM would look like, because you're starting to sound a lot like a troll.

[ShinsFortress]

Wow, someone needs a new hobby.  Preferably one where it's not so glaringly obvious they're not as clever as they think they are.

[hexaligned]

I'm not saying I like it, but... what alternative do you suggest? Considering the shortcomings of "Symmetrical Combat Mechanics" others have pointed out, which rpg do you think has nailed this down? I'm seriously asking, because I've never known one that does what you seem to be wanting correctly.

It's something more often found in turn based RPG's, much easier to script AI to be competent if it isn't in real time.  Which is the main reason I tend to prefer them.  The newest Divinity game that just came out, is an example of player/mob symmetry that works quite well (until the later levels).

 

Bioware has never been good at creating challenging AI, I just hope for functional this time around.  I'll agree with the OP on one thing (if I understood him correctly).  The difference in movement speed between the player characters and AI in DA2, broke pretty much everything combat related in that game, it was one of the worst combat systems I have ever personally played.  Even overlooking everything else that was objectively broken about it.  Hopefully they have learned from whatever the hell went wrong on the development side of that one.

[Wulfram]

I'm not keen on the slow enemy attack animations because it encourages kiting over real tactics.  And I doubt that they'll be radically changed before release, or that they depend on difficulty levels, unlike hit-points and so on.

 

I don't think the player attacks seem inordinately fast.  The 2 handed attacks speed looks pretty good - not being ridiculously slow like DA:O but still having some actual sense of weight.

 

As for hit-points, I don't care too much about asymmetry in itself, but if it means that friendly fire can't be done in a sensible way then it's a problem.

[Provi-dance]

Also, DAO's combat was made of utter fail, and was actually asymmetrical as well, with the enemies having better controls than the player did over their characters. For example, archers in DAO didn't need to shuffle up to the front lines to shot their weapons at you, but you as the player would have your character automatically march itself right up to their face, no matter what you did, whenever you tried to shoot the enemy in a place the combat mechanic didn't like you shooting from, like say 20 feet while standing on a hill.

 

Cool. That's why DAO was clearly offered as an example of excellent & symmetrical combat that has to be followed, yes?

 

The "shuffle" thing and co. was a smoke screen that's been used to introduce ridiculously fast&furious attacks.

 

 

 

Try to use your imagination @Warlock, possibly not the worst case scenario of people dying in one hit. But if you fail at basic imagination skills, Pillars of Eternity is a good example of symmetrical combat mechanics. Go read the wiki if you're interested (you asked). The game is not out yet.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Cool. That's why DAO was clearly offered as an example of excellent & symmetrical combat that has to be followed, yes?

 

The "shuffle" thing and co. was a smoke screen that's been used to introduce ridiculously fast&furious attacks.

 

 

Again, you're not speaking clearly. Try to tone down the sarcastic cuntiness and just say what you want to say, without the pomposity behind it.

[ElitePinecone]

 basically saying that it's likely that they've shown stuff that, combat wise, is not representative of the final game, at all.

Indeed, it's possible that Bioware decided to show a gameplay demo, a few months before release, with combat that's not representative of the combat that will be available from October 7th.

Therefore it's possible that now we're seeing enemy humans in DA:I with 5x more HP, 10x less damage and 10x slower attack speed, for gameplay and tactical combat showcase purposes, but by October they'll be gone. What do you think?

 

It's not likely, it's certain.

 

That's literally what they did. Devs have mentioned it once or twice in relation to that video.

 

Combat was adjusted for pacing and timing reasons, and so that whoever was playing the demo couldn't die.

[Warlock]

I wasn't interested in knowing what the best implementation was, but rather what you thought the best implementation was. As for the PoE, I'm a backer from the first day of its KS, and I can see what you mean, though it was not what I had garnered you thought was a SCM at first. That being said, I don't think they have actually showed how their combat system actually works in implementation.

[jacuwi]

That's kind of exactly what happened. It's already been stated that the numbers were somewhat fiddled with to create a certain pace for the demo. So, and this may come as a shock to you, what we see in the Alpha Demo (which is stuff they are still working on, by the way. Since ya know, the game isn't finished yet.) is not representative of what we will see in October.

[pdusen]

But if you fail at basic imagination skills, Pillars of Eternity is a good example of symmetrical combat mechanics. Go read the wiki if you're interested (you asked). The game is not out yet.

 

1.) Pillars of Eternity isn't a good example of anything yet, because it's not out.

 

2.) Asking other people to use their imaginations to understand what you're talking about is not a win for you.

[Schreckstoff]

I don't want my enemies to can do everything I can.

I still dread the fight against Letho in TW2 before they adjusted difficulty.

AI is simply better at playing a game if it isn't intentionally made to be dumb.