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#76
bEVEsthda

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I think that's unavoidable in any RPG with an epic story. If the PC and friends are mediocre, average and comparable to town guards, then it is downright insane that four of them survive for more than a few seconds against an ogre (much less a dragon). 

 

Yes. I think it should be unavoidable. With time and character development. RPGs are, after all, partly about just that. That doesn't stop you from setting out ordinary and average, weaker than a town guard.

But what I really don't like are special individual abilities and nuclear powers. A big reason for my dislike of DA2.

It's too much Bayonetta, too little roleplaying game.



#77
Burricho

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The thing with that arrangement is, it feels much like just bullying bunch of preschoolers for their lunch money -- sure, it can be done and easily so, but it's hardly an accomplishment... and imo the game really doesn't gain anything by having gangs of thugs roaming around with numbers literally into hundreds, each of them too stupid to tie their own shoes.

It's pretty much a matter of preference, though. I'm really not a fan of having the PC and friends painted as some sort of demi-gods on the level of superheroes from the comic books, due to that mentioned "bunch of preschoolers" effect. But I realize this approach is popular with some (many?) players and it genuinely makes them feel powerful and special.

But a bunch of random bandits would surely be nowhere near as good as your and your highly skilled team?



#78
Burricho

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It happens every single time with me. It happens to my mages to. My rogues will constantly shuffle to face the enemy head on when I walk behidn an enemy and press the attack button, and sometimes activated talents simply do not activate when pressed, even with the right level of mana/stamina and no cooldown on them, you press them and it does nothing. Though that is more a too many enemies on the screen at once issue then anything else.

 

Played on Xbox 360 before switching to PS3 and getting the game on that, and this problem occured on both. So yeah, in my experience, DAO combat is as bad as penn and tellers desert bus.

I had that archer problem on pc as well. My mages also walked up right into the enemies face to do anything



#79
bEVEsthda

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Meet Bioware's favorite character: Asymmetrical Combat Mechanics. 

 

 

So what do you think about ACM? A character that's been introduced by Bioware several years ago.

 

If you like it, why do you like it? If you don't, why? 

Do you like it because, I don't know, it makes you feel rather special that you and your companions are the only humanoid beings in the world that are able to attack so such much fast&furious? Although, isn't knowing that your HP pool is crippled, several times smaller than that of your average enemy, somewhat damaging to this whole power trip, hm? 

Who wants to "wait one hour to cast a spell", right? When you can shoot little magic bolts from your hand at the speed of light or swing your two-handed sword a bit faster.

 

 

Oh yes, I must not forget something. I've read some opinions about the demos, basically saying that it's likely that they've shown stuff that, combat wise, is not representative of the final game, at all.

Indeed, it's possible that Bioware decided to show a gameplay demo, a few months before release, with combat that's not representative of the combat that will be available from October 7th.

Therefore it's possible that now we're seeing enemy humans in DA:I with 5x more HP, 10x less damage and 10x slower attack speed, for gameplay and tactical combat showcase purposes, but by October they'll be gone. What do you think?

 

 

You know, I'm going to say what I usually say. I'm going to play the game before I make up my mind about how terrible a feature really works out to be.

But sure, in principle, I don't like assymmetry. But that shouldn't come as a surprise.



#80
bEVEsthda

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I like it. Because it lets me deal with large groups of enemies in a reasonable time.

 

 

No, it doesn't. If you deal quickly with a large group of enemies, then it's because that particular fight was balanced that way.

Asymmetric combat mechanisms doesn't affect that. That's a misunderstanding. Asymmetric will affect how it's balanced, but not your convenience or difficulty.

 

Nor does it affect how responsive or how fast the combat feels vs "sluggish, shuffling". All that is just either misunderstandings or smokescreens.

 

Asymmetric is all the rage currently, particulary on console games. I don't quite know why, but I suppose it makes it possible for the combat settings to be bigger, more important, and make the player feel more powerful. Essentially, you make video games portray blowing up tanks and killing Dragons, not about stomping ants (no matter how desperate that struggle may become).

.


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#81
PsychoBlonde

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If my group of five is facing a group of twenty enemies that have the same HP/damage mit, damage, speed, and abilities* as I do, then my best bet of surviving is playing in a very conservative and tactical manner. This slows things down.

If that group of twenty doesn't have the same HP/damage mit, damage, speed, and abilities that I have, then that is asymmetrical.

 

That's not systemic asymmetry, it's encounter asymmetry, which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.  ENCOUNTER asymmetry is not just a given but actually DESIRABLE in a game.  Heck, there's built-in encounter asymmetry with video games whether you like it or not simply because the computer is inherently a ****** when it comes to tactical complexity and inherently unbeatably fast when it comes to reaction time.  Systemic asymmetry means that the PC/NPC group are on *different scales*.  That's what happens when, say, PC's have 700 health and do 20,000 damage, while NPC monsters have 50,000 health and do 30 damage.  Health and damage are on different logarithmic scales for the two different groups, meaning if you have a situation where you have a PC-on-PC fight or friendly fire, ANY PC damage effect is going to one-shot another PC.  This was particularly evident in the Fade section where you go to rescue Feynriel--if your companions turned against you they KEPT their PC damage but got NPC health.  Fenris one-shot my entire party before the game even finished loading out of the cut scene so that I could DO anything.  I only beat that fight by stripping him naked so that he was using his basic little 7 damage level 1 weapon.  Even then he dropped my other two party members and I had to kite him on my mage.

 

The point is not for enemies to be IDENTICAL to your party in every respect but for them to be on the same numerical order.  If PC's have health numbers in the hundreds, NPC's have health numbers in the hundreds.  So a "strong" enemy might have 800 health while a "weak" enemy has 150.  If PC's have damage numbers in the tens, NPC's have damage numbers in the tens.  This doesn't prevent PC's from doing 86 damage while NPC's do 17.  You can even have extreme outliers that are one order of magnitude different--super-buff enemies with 2500 health or super-buff PC's that do 170 damage.  That's fine, you just need to adjust the encounter or build design a bit to account for it and have tradeoffs involved.  No big.  This allows for a unified "physics" of the game world where everything in the world is comparable to everything else.  It allows for a functional comparison range, better mechanical control, better grasp of game difficulty and a broader possibility of complex encounter design.  With a logarithmic scaling difference you end up with a situation where every fight becomes either a one-shot-fest or a tedious chipping away at an enormous health pool while occasionally swigging potions.  Tactical options like crowd control, choke points, LOS pulls, ganging up on specific enemies, etc. etc. etc. either become completely devalued and worthless or utter necessities.  It's very binary and the combat becomes very two-dimensional as a result.  You either cannot take risks or there are no risks.  Either way is boring. 


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#82
Rawgrim

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The same rules should apply to everyone in the same setting.


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#83
Provi-dance

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  Health and damage are on different logarithmic scales for the two different groups, meaning if you have a situation where you have a PC-on-PC fight or friendly fire, ANY PC damage effect is going to one-shot another PC.  This was particularly evident in the Fade section where you go to rescue Feynriel--if your companions turned against you they KEPT their PC damage but got NPC health.  Fenris one-shot my entire party before the game even finished loading out of the cut scene so that I could DO anything. 

 

This is a good litmus test for ACM. Seeing what happens when, for instance, half of your party gets dominated. Do people one-shot each other or is there a meaningful fight?

Another test is friendly fire, of course.

 

 

***

 

 

Anyhow, I compiled a list of reasons for preferring asymmetrical combat mechanics. The amusement value is high:

 

 

It's a video game.

good pacing and a fair amount of challenge for every battle

how incredibly boring it would be to always fight 4 people at a time

- because AI

DAO's combat was made of utter fail

Because it lets me deal with large groups of enemies in a reasonable time.

- Because it lets me show how edgy I am *posts gif image*



#84
Mukora

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A lot of the people advocating for symmetrical combat are kind of falling into the EDGY pit, too, to be fair.

Like I said before, if Baldur's Gate is an example of good symmetrical combat, then I want nothing to do with it. Other people may enjoy it, and that's cool, but I hated the combat in that game (well... BG1 was alright. But BG2 was not fun.) Even on the easiest difficulty, I found it to just be a chore and a slog. I eventually just resorted to using console commands to kill most of the enemies.

#85
movieguyabw

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This was particularly evident in the Fade section where you go to rescue Feynriel--if your companions turned against you they KEPT their PC damage but got NPC health.  Fenris one-shot my entire party before the game even finished loading out of the cut scene so that I could DO anything.  I only beat that fight by stripping him naked so that he was using his basic little 7 damage level 1 weapon.  Even then he dropped my other two party members and I had to kite him on my mage.

 

Was this a bug just with the PC version?  Or did they end up patching this at some point early on?  Because I've never had any difficulty with those fights.  In fact, I remember them being pretty damn easy.  0o



#86
Gtdef

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Was this a bug just with the PC version?  Or did they end up patching this at some point early on?  Because I've never had any difficulty with those fights.  In fact, I remember them being pretty damn easy.  0o

 

I play on pc and this was never an issue. And that's on Nightmare. It was actually the other way around, hostile companions were getting oneshotted while you could survive their attacks pretty easily.


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#87
In Exile

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Yes. I think it should be unavoidable. With time and character development. RPGs are, after all, partly about just that. That doesn't stop you from setting out ordinary and average, weaker than a town guard.

But what I really don't like are special individual abilities and nuclear powers. A big reason for my dislike of DA2.

It's too much Bayonetta, too little roleplaying game.

 

It should stop you from being weak and ordinary at the start, unless the game is set over decades, if the designers want to preserve even a shred of credibility as to their world design. How does Bob, the untrained peasant of 24 years of age, become the Eternal Warrior Bob, greatest Swordsman in the land and slayer of Demons, Dragons and All Manner of Beasts inside 3 weeks? 

That's like me or you becoming FIFA player of the year despite never having played soccer and starting out a bit out of shape. It's absurd. 


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#88
Burricho

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Soccer  :angry:


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#89
In Exile

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You may be misreading what I wrote there but no, I wasn't thinking of kiting there. If you position what looks like good target upfront and the enemies make beeline for them, clustering together in the process and rendering themselves as good target to drop aoe spell or rain of arrows, this allows you to take out multiple enemies effectively and there's no "kiting" involved. Similarly, focusing your entire team on enemies one by one and cutting them down fast this way, instead of everyone getting tangled in their own little duels for prolonged lengths of time. Finally, the 'divide and conquer' tactics of trimming down groups with CC abilities to allow you to tackle them in more manageable numbers, maybe even to the point where the number advantage is actually on your side. All this can be done in RPGs (it was certainly possible in DA:O) without use of stealth. Yes, it can be called "alpha strikes" but that's perfectly reasonable combat tactic, and it works. I don't consider using your heavy-hitting abilities from the onset to be any kind of "exploit".

Now, as far as "kiting" goes, some sorts of this have plausible use in combat as well, imo. And not just in RPGs, but it's hardly uncommon in normal fighting to present part of your enemies with what looks like target they can tackle easily, only to have that target flee and lead its pursuers into what turns out to be a trap. Reducing you enemy's overall numbers in the process. And the mechanics which allow for this are already present, it's not something that requires total rework.

And heck, even the most blatant form of kiting is something that's regularly featured in all these 'heroic fight' scenes in movies and such, too -- when you watch them then it's not like one hero just stands there in the middle of 50 and lets all them stab him/her repeatedly like some giant, patient sponge. But instead they're moving and weaving all over the place, taking advantage of every cover, corner and other way to split their enemies and make them pointlessly flail about while some of them are being taken out.

 

Let's address it in order, because all these tactics are basically just assymetric combat, except it falls on the AI side and the ability side instead of the raw damage numbers: 

 

          - Alpha Strikes. This tactic is viable because it is asymmetric, in the sense that enemies never do the same to you. You don't have 9 enemies combine all of their special attacks - which they don't even get in DA:O/DA - against your single NPC, so that they eradicate your health to 0 in a matter of seconds. When it comes to numerical superiority on (almost) even strength,                   alpha strikes aren't in our favour. 

             -Divide and Conquer (CC-Moves). This is another example of assymetric combat. The player has lots of 100% stunlock - and AOE stunlock abilities, without FF - that the enemies do not have that allow you to mop them up rapidly. Just look at the number of complaints people had about that AOE stunning arrow attack that DA:O archers could use because it stunlocked the whole party. That is an example of symmetry and people hate it. 

             -Divide and Conquer (Ambush-wise). This tactic only works when enemies are already divided into small groups and you can take them out without raising alerts (so like I said, it turns into a stealth heavy mechanic), or when enemies are basically unthinking and divide themselves in an "ambush". In most RPGs, your party is fully visible in an open space - the idea of the enemy splitting up to chase you is just plain silly. 

 

I don't disagree with you in principle - but the reality is that the game relies on a great deal of poor AI and exploits to make AOE alpha strikes work. It is one thing to have mindless beasts - like animals - cluster themselves so that AOEs can obliterate them en mass. We might even say that completely untrained soldiers - or soldiers who lack experience against mages - would do something similar, not understand how artillery works. 

 

Once we get to enemies that are mind controlled by some sort of archfiend - such as the darkspawn during a blight - or enemies that are supposedly trained or knowledgeable about magic - cluster together becomes silly. We have lots of IRL military tactics to keep troop squads from getting blown to shreds by mortars. 

 

As for the example of moving and weaving - now we're talking about things that are literally a fundamental violation of how RPG combat is designed to work, i.e., mobile and avoiding injuries instead of standing around like a brick. You might say this is just animation, but that's not right. It goes beyond that, to the fact that real combat against superior numbers is all about fast dynamic movement which really becomes so-called twitch action. 

 

And enemies can, and should, do the same. 

 

I don't think it's insane at all. Yes, humans don't generally stand a chance against ogres, dragons or even bears or wolves when both sides fight unarmed. But that's why we use our ingenuity to even out the field -- why we clad ourselves in steel that protects us better than any hide protects our foes, why we bring weapons that can cut better than any claws. That's why, lacking the natural strength of much larger animals we again invent devices which can shoot projectiles with strength that can pierce not only hides of these animals, but even that steel we protect ourselves with. And if all that wasn't enough then in the fantasy settings we always can fall back on the convenient "the wizard did it".

Can the PC and friends be somewhat better skilled, stronger and/or more determined than average town guard? Sure (especially when it comes to that last department) But that power difference doesn't need to be at absurd level where you can wipe out entire city worth of town guards with a simple sneeze. Personally, I'd probably draw a line somewhere around being able to fight on even terms at 1:2 odds. As I don't find it too unreasonable to expect 10-12 well equipped and well trained 'town guards' backed up with magic to take down an ogre or even a dragon, if only they actually had guts to face one in the first place and then stand their ground, level-headed. Ogres and dragons are supposed to be powerful, but not invincible.

 

"A wizard did it" doesn't really work as a defence when the setting pretends to be realistic about the threats that enemies pose. We can use DA:O as a great example here:

 

When we have Duncan and Cailan fight an Ogre, the Ogre crushes Cailan in his bare hands without any effort. Then Cailan is dead. Duncan can - despite being exhausted - kill the thing, but in this 2 v 1 situation we end up with one person dead as a doornail, because one hit is absolutely fatal. And that's just raw strength against an unarmoured enemy. And that only works because Duncan does something that IRL is impossible - he leaps onto that Ogre higher than Lebron does when he dunks. 

 

With a dragon, it can just fly and burn everyone alive. 10-12 guards backed with magic maybe could take something like a dragon down, with 50-80% casualties. 

That's the reality that this absurdity about PC equivalence to trash mobs hides - that in real war our vulnerability leads to death, suffering and maiming, and that's why in the real world we don't have superlative murder monsters like the Warden: because someone who sees that much combat at that level of overwhelming disadvantageous odds generally winds up dead. 


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#90
Schreckstoff

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Soccer  :angry:

Oh get over it. It's not nearly as bad as using the imperial system and fahrenheit


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#91
PsychoBlonde

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A lot of the people advocating for symmetrical combat are kind of falling into the EDGY pit, too, to be fair.

Like I said before, if Baldur's Gate is an example of good symmetrical combat, then I want nothing to do with it. Other people may enjoy it, and that's cool, but I hated the combat in that game (well... BG1 was alright. But BG2 was not fun.) Even on the easiest difficulty, I found it to just be a chore and a slog. I eventually just resorted to using console commands to kill most of the enemies.

 

Bleh Baldur's Gate is HORRIBLE example.  And it wasn't symmetrical, anyway.  It was HEAVILY balanced in favor of enemies who had health in the hundreds while PC's had health in the tens (or the thousands once you hit triple digits) and the NPC's did damage in the tens.  Granted, later on you could get your damage up to such a degree that you could demolish even heavily-endowed enemies in short order.  But it didn't change the fact that the game was balanced so that PC's were perpetually being one-shot.  And that's ignoring all the numerous, numerous effects that ignored health totals entirely and just one-shot you for giggles.

 

I honestly can't think of a computer game that I've played recently that was a serious example of a symmetrical combat system.  Some start out that way but by endgame they've all dumped it.  DA: O wasn't fully symmetrical although it was largely so in many respects--the enemies at least used the same abilities you did in roughly the same ways.  Friendly fire was useful and manageable.  I wouldn't describe it as being "full of fail".  It was badly unbalanced in many respects and got boring after a while, sure.  It was still better than Mass Effect. 



#92
tmp7704

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But a bunch of random bandits would surely be nowhere near as good as your and your highly skilled team?

The "nowhere near" part is questionable -- these 'random' bandits have probably quite a bit of actual combat experience, if just from months of being regularly put in situations where they had one way or another to deal with some resistance and/or competition. From *their* point of view they aren't "random" bandits, they are people who's managed to successfully operate as criminals for at least a while, and you don't achieve that by being inept at what the job involves.

My focus is however more on how those bandits being regularly "a bunch" going literally into dozens results in the game feeling silly rather than 'heroic'. And for that reason I'd rather have encounters with less numerous but decently skilled/strong foes.

#93
PsychoBlonde

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Was this a bug just with the PC version?  Or did they end up patching this at some point early on?  Because I've never had any difficulty with those fights.  In fact, I remember them being pretty damn easy.  0o

 

It depends a LOT on how you have your party set up and who you take with you and how you have their tactics set.  Aveline was cake to defeat, for instance.  I don't remember everyone specifically, I just remember that due to how it started Fenris IN MELEE with my ENTIRE PARTY he just hit his big cleave and boom, everyone was dead before I was even able to move anyone away.  Happened three times before I figured out what to do about it. 



#94
PsychoBlonde

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The "nowhere near" part is questionable -- these 'random' bandits have probably quite a bit of actual combat experience, if just from months of being regularly put in situations where they had one way or another to deal with some resistance and/or competition. 

 

 

Mm . . . actually, real life bandits and criminals generally go after foes that aren't in a position to resist.  If every piece of loot requires a hard-fought battle, your entire group will be dead within a week.  Attrition is not something small isolated groups of lawbreakers can handle easily.  There isn't some endless Pool of Potential Bandit Candidates they can pull from.  You don't have Bandit Interns submitting Bandit Resumes.  Recruiting even semi-actively can be extremely dangerous because the people volunteering as recruits are likely to be law enforcement and/or just looking to prey on you the way you prey on everyone else.

GRANTED if you have a LOT of bandits they're also very likely to be a part of a large, semi-organized group like a cartel.  The rank-and-file bandits or drug runners aren't likely to be any better trained, but there is probably a smallish group of decently-trained organizers/operators.  But even this may not be the case.  A lot of organizations like this depend upon intimidation tactics like drive-by shootings, bombs, kidnapping, etc.  You don't have to have well-trained troops for that.  They just have to be loyal enough to be willing to blow up the homes of complete strangers because you told them to.

 

Becoming some sort of elite combat personnel requires DISCIPLINE and this is precisely what criminals are likely NOT TO HAVE.



#95
In Exile

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The "nowhere near" part is questionable -- these 'random' bandits have probably quite a bit of actual combat experience, if just from months of being regularly put in situations where they had one way or another to deal with some resistance and/or competition. From *their* point of view they aren't "random" bandits, they are people who's managed to successfully operate as criminals for at least a while, and you don't achieve that by being inept at what the job involves.

My focus is however more on how those bandits being regularly "a bunch" going literally into dozens results in the game feeling silly rather than 'heroic'. And for that reason I'd rather have encounters with less numerous but decently skilled/strong foes.

 

I should add that I agree with you here entirely- what DA2 did is absurd. I just don't think symmetricla mechanics are the solution to providing a challenge in these smaller encounters. 



#96
Zered

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This, along with dumb weapon restrictions, is my biggest problem with Dragon Age since ][

 

In Origins everything was nice and balanced and didn't feel out of place. DA ][ was a total mess in that department. Even The Witcher 2 has this more balanced out - tough Geralt is a mutant and should be super fast and crap.

 

It's an awfull step into the flashy crap that I don't like.



#97
Gtdef

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I think we can all agree here that a bigger health pool shouldn't exist to balance a lacking AI and a superman protagonist but instead to add something to the encounter.

 

I won't bother with symmetrical or not. I actually had prepared a big post that I decided to erase because it sounded more like a rant. But I just want to say that tactics should be a thing and enemies should have personality. Some examples, Bandits should be more unorganized and die easier but do higher spike damage and swarm the player, so you have to kite them, avoid their rogues and line of sight their archers. Force them to play fair and they lose. Guards should work better as a unit and have more tight ranks but don't know how to deal with artillery and mages. Templars should be the other way around. 

 

And then have the more elite units that do more things. Like lets say Dalish hunters, that do guerilla style attacks. They use bows and focus fire but don't stand one near the other so you can't kill them with aoe. They don't have to be the same power level as the player but they don't have to be boring too. With the tactics system that's very easy to do. For example the archer leader does "enemy target->attack", all the others do "target of elite archer -> attack", then add conditionals about the class of the target, add stun/silence abilities and whatever the game provides.



#98
azrael_1289

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Balancing in games is always something done very close to release and in cases where balance is paramount, long after the release through patches. So, am not really worried about those numbers especially since a dev commented that they had specifically altered damage numbers to show off a good demo.



#99
In Exile

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This, along with dumb weapon restrictions, is my biggest problem with Dragon Age since ][

 

In Origins everything was nice and balanced and didn't feel out of place. DA ][ was a total mess in that department. Even The Witcher 2 has this more balanced out - tough Geralt is a mutant and should be super fast and crap.

 

It's an awfull step into the flashy crap that I don't like.

 

DAO wasn't balanced. The mage damage greatly outpaced everything in existence. You had to intentionally nerf yourself. 



#100
Burricho

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Oh get over it. It's not nearly as bad as using the imperial system and fahrenheit

As a Brit I use both Feet and Degrees. So HAH.