143 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

- Alpha Strikes. This tactic is viable because it is asymmetric, in the sense that enemies never do the same to you.

This isn't really true -- recall that large part of RPG group combat (DA included) actually relies on making as many of your enemies as possible to focus on one of your characters, the "tank" who gets actual abilities to allow that.

The difference is usually in the player being free to focus their damage on squishier targets instead of the one most heavily armoured, if they choose so. In the situation where the AI can do that as well it comes down to positioning, as in having your characters take advantage of terrain in ways that minimize enemy's ability to focus fire on those in your group who wouldn't be able to take it. That's however pretty rare, since AI playing actually smart for a change typically leads to the player ending up frustrated and concluding "the game sucks".
 

-Divide and Conquer (Ambush-wise). This tactic only works when enemies are already divided into small groups and you can take them out without raising alerts (so like I said, it turns into a stealth heavy mechanic), or when enemies are basically unthinking and divide themselves in an "ambush". In most RPGs, your party is fully visible in an open space - the idea of the enemy splitting up to chase you is just plain silly.

This tactics works and is plausible mainly because in typical arrangements the enemies are divided into patrol teams over largerarea (and in medieval'esque settings they conveniently lack instant communication between separate patrols) While your party is fully visible in open space, the spaces where the game takes you are frequently anything *but* really 'open' -- cities, forests, castles, caverns etc and so on, all have lot of elements which break the total space into series of much smaller areas, where the enemy groups lack contact with anything but what's in their vicinity. This makes make-believe stealth and such optional rather than mandatory.
 

As for the example of moving and weaving - now we're talking about things that are literally a fundamental violation of how RPG combat is designed to work, i.e., mobile and avoiding injuries instead of standing around like a brick. You might say this is just animation, but that's not right. It goes beyond that, to the fact that real combat against superior numbers is all about fast dynamic movement which really becomes so-called twitch action.

I'd argue this isn't really true, as the RPG mechanics typically try to allow for and emulate this behavior with their dodge/block/parry stats, to-hit rolls, movement speeds and attack ranges. It's not perfect and the players might find silly way to abuse it but still, it exists and it exists as part of the design.
 

When we have Duncan and Cailan fight an Ogre, the Ogre crushes Cailan in his bare hands without any effort. Then Cailan is dead. Duncan can - despite being exhausted - kill the thing, but in this 2 v 1 situation we end up with one person dead as a doornail, because one hit is absolutely fatal. And that's just raw strength against an unarmoured enemy. And that only works because Duncan does something that IRL is impossible - he leaps onto that Ogre higher than Lebron does when he dunks.

I think this is, unfortunately, the Dramatic Cutscene™ getting upper hand over the game's own mechanics. Cailan is supposed to die and Duncan needs to have this And Now, Some Real Rage scene seeing that, but this particular scene plays literally back to back with team of four people (two of them being regular soldiers, and two fresh Grey Warden conscripts) taking out an ogre that looks just like the one that kills Cailan, and which demonstrates that getting crushed by the ogre is either survivable or plain avoidable in the first place.

Cailan doesn't so much die because the Ogre is such incredible threat, but more due to being put in situation where the other person he's fighting that ogre with is conveniently made unable to react until The Plot says it's ok for them to react.

In any case, I don't feel this goes much against what I said regarding the power difference between PC and friends, vs more regular folks -- if the point raised is, such characters facing strong monsters would frequently wind up dead then yes, this is quite correct. But it's also why the RPGs address that issue with number of make-believe explanations and mechanics, from convenient Cure All Wounds potions they allow you to carry in bulk, through magic to (in some cases) plain resurrection. Because indeed, without these most of the RPG adventures would be very, very short.

[andy6915]

With a dragon, it can just fly and burn everyone alive. 10-12 guards backed with magic maybe could take something like a dragon down, with 50-80% casualties.

 

Which really does show how superior the Warden and Hawke are to normal people. Both of them can solo a high dragon. I've done it as every class in both games, intentionally fought the high dragon by myself on nightmare... And won. They can single-handedly take down something that an entire platoon of soldiers would likely get annihilated by. This is why I don't mind Hawke having far flashier and more overpowered attacks and animations than anyone else, because Hawke is clearly in a whole 'nother league compared to most people. The much faster and flashier animations in a good way to visually show exactly how much of a difference in skill there is between Hawke and co compared to everyone else. Most mages just do little zaps, Hawke goes full on martial arts quarter staff tactics. Warrior 2 handers for most people take a lot of windup and are slow, Hawke swings it around like it's nothing. Most rogues do little slashes in a basic fashion, Hawke acts like a whirlwind of blades and kicks.

 

I don't mind my character's animations being much faster and flashier, because it's only showing exactly what the case is. That case being my character is far far more skilled than just about anyone else.

[Gtdef]

Rogue Hawke also magically teleports and blinks though. The combat system is disconnected from the rest of the game. I've killed the high dragon solo too but I never felt that this is representative of the relative ability of Hawke to the rest of the people in the universe. More like exploiting the obvious weaknesses of the mechanics.

[tmp7704]

Mm . . . actually, real life bandits and criminals generally go after foes that aren't in a position to resist.  If every piece of loot requires a hard-fought battle, your entire group will be dead within a week.  Attrition is not something small isolated groups of lawbreakers can handle easily.  There isn't some endless Pool of Potential Bandit Candidates they can pull from.  You don't have Bandit Interns submitting Bandit Resumes.  Recruiting even semi-actively can be extremely dangerous because the people volunteering as recruits are likely to be law enforcement and/or just looking to prey on you the way you prey on everyone else.

I meant it mainly in the sense that the merchants and such often resort to hiring escorts, which forces the bandit groups to try at least some intimidation tactics and/or ambushes, if they want to actually make any profit. This may often enough escalate into some actual fighting (as bandits who regularly back down when faced with even hint of resistance aren't going to have much success in intimidating any further victims) The end effect being, with attrition being a real problem like you note, odds are that the bandits you do face *are* likely skilled quite well, if they managed to function until 'now'. In a way this is pretty literal case of "survival of the fittest".

[Schreckstoff]

As a Brit I use both Feet and Degrees. So HAH.

Congrats to being a dying breed even the Brits have started to adopt the clearly superior, in any conceivable way, system, Metric and Celsius/Kelvin.

[andy6915]

I think this is, unfortunately, the Dramatic Cutscene™ getting upper hand over the game's own mechanics. Cailan is supposed to die and Duncan needs to have this And Now, Some Real Rage scene seeing that, but this particular scene plays literally back to back with team of four people (two of them being regular soldiers, and two fresh Grey Warden conscripts) taking out an ogre that looks just like the one that kills Cailan, and which demonstrates that getting crushed by the ogre is either survivable or plain avoidable in the first place.

Cailan doesn't so much die because the Ogre is such incredible threat, but more due to being put in situation where the other person he's fighting that ogre with is conveniently made unable to react until The Plot says it's ok for them to react.

In any case, I don't feel this goes much against what I said regarding the power difference between PC and friends, vs more regular folks -- if the point raised is, such characters facing strong monsters would frequently wind up dead then yes, this is quite correct. But it's also why the RPGs address that issue with number of make-believe explanations and mechanics, from convenient Cure All Wounds potions they allow you to carry in bulk, through magic to (in some cases) plain resurrection. Because indeed, without these most of the RPG adventures would be very, very short.

 

I disagree. Cutscenes make it clear that people in DA are totally mortal and only in gameplay is it that you can take attacks that should be fatal. In gameplay you can survive just about anything you shouldn't be able to. In gameplay you can take being lit on fire, stabbed and slashed multiple times by a greatsword, picked up by the mouth and treated like a chew toy by a high dragon, shot through the eye with an arrow, and of course being crushed by an ogre. But that's gameplay, that's just how the game is designed. But in story and lore, what happened to Cailan was absolutely fatal as it should be. If your Warden is actually picked up by an ogre and that is done, they will die just as easily. Look at the cutscene after the Ogre kill, 2 little arrows hitting your character damn near kills them and would have if not for Flemeth. 2 little arrows in gameplay is nothing, scratch damage at best. That shows that what you take in gameplay doesn't represent what your character can take in actuality.

 

The ogre is such an incredible threat, it's a 15 foot tall monster of pure muscle. And yes, it can indeed easily crush someone in full dragonbone armor. The scene taking place after it took an entire party to kill one is quite the opposite of what you think. It wasn't to show Cailan was weak, it was to show that Duncan and other experienced Grey Warden's are just that damn strong. It instant killed Cailan, and took you an entire party to bring just one down. Duncan kills it in seconds by himself. And end-game during the final battles in Denerim, when you're not also an experienced Grey Warden? You run into an entire pack of ogres, and each one only takes a couple of seconds to bring down with just your lone Warden even on nightmare. Just like Duncan, you're cutting them down easily. But just like Duncan, it's with pure skill and not durability because in canon your character isn't just going to walk off getting hit by a headbutt from one or being crushed by one. Canon-wise your Warden is killing Ogres in seconds, but also canon-wise one little mistake could result in you being horribly handicapped for life or even instantly killed. Thing is, canon-wise your Warden is skilled enough to not do any little mistakes that would be fatal. Basically, despite gameplay showing otherwise, every battle is a dance with death where one slip equals death. Just like real battlefields.

[Schreckstoff]

I meant it mainly in the sense that the merchants and such often resort to hiring escorts, which forces the bandit groups to try at least some intimidation tactics and/or ambushes, if they want to actually make any profit. This may often enough escalate into some actual fighting (as bandits who regularly back down when faced with even hint of resistance aren't going to have much success in intimidating any further victims) The end effect being, with attrition being a real problem like you note, odds are that the bandits you do face *are* likely skilled quite well, if they managed to function until 'now'. In a way this is pretty literal case of "survival of the fittest".

Small interjection, those that ambush people on the roads are highwaymen. Bandits are outlaws in general.

[andy6915]

Rogue Hawke also magically teleports and blinks though. The combat system is disconnected from the rest of the game. I've killed the high dragon solo too but I never felt that this is representative of the relative ability of Hawke to the rest of the people in the universe. More like exploiting the obvious weaknesses of the mechanics.

 

Disagree with this too. Rogues are all about discretion and stealth and slight of hands. The teleport isn't a teleport, it's some kind of trick of distraction and the gameplay merely shows it looks like to the enemy. It's like that mage hermit in DAO when he teleports, Morrigan tells you that he isn't actually doing what he appears and it's actually just him being good at illusions. All the backstab is, is distraction and illusion and slight of hand mixed with a extreme skill with agility, not a literal teleport.

 

And I'd say that does show they can solo a high dragon. Why couldn't they? All they'd need to do is fight cautiously and use all the battle instinct and experience they have. And it is canon that a dragon can be solo'd. Proof?

 

http://dragonage.wik...i/Fourth_Blight

 

"In 5:24 Garahel freed the Antivan lands at the infamous Battle of Ayesleigh. There the Fourth Blight ended – and Garahel died, having cast down and slain Andoral in single combat.^[6]"

 

An elf killed the last archdemon in single combat. As in alone. And Archdemons are more powerful than even high dragons. So you think that no one in DA is canon-wise skilled enough to solo a high dragon? The canon lore disagrees with you. He could do it, why can't the Warden and Hawke?

[tmp7704]

I honestly can't think of a computer game that I've played recently that was a serious example of a symmetrical combat system.

It's been a while since I played it (and I didn't finish it yet so don't know if it keeps all way to the end) but Agarest: Generations of War seemed pretty good in this regard -- not only both sides would display comparable levels of damage/hp values and abilities, but the AI was also quite decent at coordinated strikes with some classes (something the game would effectively force you to utilize as well, in order to make it through even regular encounters)

[tmp7704]

It wasn't to show Cailan was weak, it was to show that Duncan and other experienced Grey Warden's are just that damn strong. It instant killed Cailan, and took you an entire party to bring just one down. Duncan kills it in seconds by himself. And end-game during the final battles in Denerim, when you're not also an experienced Grey Warden? You run into an entire pack of ogres, and each one only takes a couple of seconds to bring down with just your lone Warden even on nightmare. Just like Duncan, you're cutting them down easily.

The problem with this argument is, it's not only your Warden that can take ogres out in seconds at the end game -- *any* character equipped with the same gear and with the same amount of invested skill points will do it just as well. As such, imo it doesn't really show that "senior Wardens are badass", but rather that Cailan was indeed lacking any real combat experience and/or good gear (the experience unsurprisingly, being a young king and all, the gear less so)

(and that Duncan failed to use his stun skill fast enough to break the ogre's grasp, but that's another story and like I said, not really his fault)

[Gtdef]

Disagree with this too. Rogues are all about discretion and stealth and slight of hands. The teleport isn't a teleport, it's some kind of trick of distraction and the gameplay merely shows it looks like to the enemy. It's like that mage hermit in DAO when he teleports, Morrigan tells you that he isn't actually doing what he appears and it's actually just him being good at illusions. All the backstab is, is distraction and illusion and slight of hand mixed with a extreme skill with agility, not a literal teleport.

 

And I'd say that does show they can solo a high dragon. Why couldn't they? All they'd need to do is fight cautiously and use all the battle instinct and experience they have. And it is canon that a dragon can be solo'd. Proof?

 

http://dragonage.wik...i/Fourth_Blight

 

"In 5:24 Garahel freed the Antivan lands at the infamous Battle of Ayesleigh. There the Fourth Blight ended – and Garahel died, having cast down and slain Andoral in single combat.^[6]"

 

An elf killed the last archdemon in single combat. As in alone. And Archdemons are more powerful than even high dragons. So you think that no one in DA is canon-wise skilled enough to solo a high dragon? The canon lore disagrees with you. He could do it, why can't the Warden and Hawke?

 

Sure, but killing a dragon in single combat doesn't mean that he is so strong that can take on an army that has the relative power of the dragon, which the game allows it. Actually Hawke even on nightmare, can dispatch literally whole armies. Bring as many of them as you like. Fighting a dragon or a whatever strong animal implies a certain process. Thus I say that it's not representative of Hawke's relative power. Yea sure, he may kill the dragon, others have done it. Still not the same.

 

Plus in DA2 he doesn't just kill the dragon, but he kills a small army of dragonlings and lesser dragons. I can understand killing a dragon because for all their intellect, they are still animals. But killing a high dragon, 5 lesser dragons, and 50 dragonlings in an open field. This is not combat ability, this is superhuman strength and stamina. I don't think that the lore supports a person fighting 100 dragons and never get tired.

 

I agree with your point about sleight of hand, but doesn't counter my point. There are ways to show these effects and control them from a player perspective if they really want. They don't. That's why I don't argue with the "stealth" ability and mages teleporting in DA2. It's not player pespective.

[andy6915]

The problem with this argument is, it's not only your Warden that can take ogres out in seconds at the end game -- *any* character equipped with the same gear and with the same amount of invested skill points will do it just as well. As such, imo it doesn't really show that "senior Wardens are badass", but rather that Cailan was indeed lacking any real combat experience and/or good gear (the experience unsurprisingly, being a young king and all, the gear less so)

(and that Duncan failed to use his stun skill fast enough to break the ogre's grasp, but that's another story and like I said, not really his fault)

 

Duncan failed to use his stun skill for precisely what I'm talking about... He's still vulnerable to injury. You know the reason he failed? Because he got slammed with full force by the ogre from behind, sending him flying and then killed Cailan while Duncan was so badly stunned he was likely seeing stars. And yes he uses one last burst of energy to kill it, but that's all it was... A last burst before his injuries caught up with him. Notice that afterward he's so weak he doesn't even bother to try pulling his weapons out, is heavily panting, and is so damn tired he can't even stand. All that because of a halfassed sucker punch from the ogre. So like I said, he's skilled enough to kill it seconds and yet it's strong enough to terribly injure him in one moment of slipping up on a battlefield.

 

And yes any party member can do that. Thing is, it's made pretty clear that everyone in the Warden's party is as good as any Grey Warden and they only reason they aren't one is because it wasn't possible to make them go through the joining and wasn't worth killing them if the the Joining failed.

 

Oh... And Cailan's equipment was not bad. He was using the Yusaris greatsword. And his armor, his armor is the best massive armor in the entire game once you get it in Return to Ostagar.

[andy6915]

Sure, but killing a dragon in single combat doesn't mean that he is so strong that can take on an army that has the relative power of the dragon, which the game allows it. Actually Hawke even on nightmare, can dispatch literally whole armies. Bring as many of them as you like. Fighting a dragon or a whatever strong animal implies a certain process. Thus I say that it's not representative of Hawke's relative power. Yea sure, he may kill the dragon, others have done it. Still not the same.

 

Plus in DA2 he doesn't just kill the dragon, but he kills a small army of dragonlings and lesser dragons. I can understand killing a dragon because for all their intellect, they are still animals. But killing a high dragon, 5 lesser dragons, and 50 dragonlings in an open field. This is not combat ability, this is superhuman strength and stamina. I don't think that the lore supports a person fighting 100 dragons and never get tired.

 

I agree with your point about sleight of hand, but doesn't counter my point. There are ways to show these effects and control them from a player perspective if they really want. They don't. That's why I don't argue with the "stealth" ability and mages teleporting in DA2. It's not player pespective.

 

You think Garahel was dealing with just the archdemon? Those things always fight with a small army alongside them. Both the main game and Darkspawn Chronicles DLC shows that. So actually, the single part was only for him seeing as that Archdemon undoubtedly used a ton of Darkspawn to directly aid it in battle. And I would say a small army of Darkspawn is more threatening than a bunch of baby dragon and 3 or so teenaged dragons. Not the same? The hell it isn't.

[Gtdef]

You think Garahel was dealing with just the archdemon? Those things always fight with a small army alongside them. Both the main game and Darkspawn Chronicles DLC shows that. So actually, the single part was only for him seeing as that Archdemon undoubtedly used a ton of Darkspawn to directly aid it in battle. And I would say a small army of Darkspawn is more threatening than a bunch of baby dragon and 3 or so teenaged dragons. Not the same? The hell it isn't.

 

Is there any info that describes the fight in detail? Because on the character page it just says that he just delivered the killing blow. Perhaps it was like Riordan tried to do and failed. That would be "single combat" and while it is exaggerated in it's own way, it doesn't show him kill countless armies of darkspawn.

[andy6915]

Is there any info that describes the fight in detail? Because on the character page it just says that he just delivered the killing blow. Perhaps it was like Riordan tried to do and failed. That would be "single combat" and while it is exaggerated in it's own way, it doesn't show him kill countless armies of darkspawn.

 

The archdemon's are always cowards. They will never fight alone, they will always summon practically an army to fight alongside it. Even if he pulled a Riordan and survived, it would then become a ground fight. A ground fight where it would summon every available darkspawn and general to aid it just like in DAO. So yes, you can't kill the archdemon without also having to fight at least 50 to 100 darkspawn by yourself in the process. That's how badass Grey Wardens can be. And seeing as Hawke is Grey Warden potential, I would say soloing the high dragon fight in DA2 isn't lore breaking.

[Schreckstoff]

The archdemon's are always cowards. They will never fight alone, they will always summon practically an army to fight alongside it. Even if he pulled a Riordan and survived, it would then become a ground fight. A ground fight where it would summon every available darkspawn and general to aid it just like in DAO. So yes, you can't kill the archdemon without also having to fight at least 50 to 100 darkspawn by yourself in the process. That's how badass Grey Wardens can be. And seeing as Hawke is Grey Warden potential, I would say soloing the high dragon fight in DA2 isn't lore breaking.

Not to mention both were recognized by Flemeth.

[bEVEsthda]

It should stop you from being weak and ordinary at the start, unless the game is set over decades, if the designers want to preserve even a shred of credibility as to their world design. How does Bob, the untrained peasant of 24 years of age, become the Eternal Warrior Bob, greatest Swordsman in the land and slayer of Demons, Dragons and All Manner of Beasts inside 3 weeks? 

That's like me or you becoming FIFA player of the year despite never having played soccer and starting out a bit out of shape. It's absurd. 

 

Given the relative increase in power over a game, virtually every rpg should break your criteria in that case. So just take it easy with that "even a shred of credibility". Whatever importance you want to give it, I think we can say it's gone anyway.

 

As for "how", it's actually not like it totally lacks real precedents. Take fighter pilots of WW1 for instance. They either went from nothing to the top experts in very short time, or died within hours. In practices where there's no rational training methods developed (like demon slaying for example), gaining experience by surviving is extremely empowering.

[Gtdef]

The archdemon's are always cowards. They will never fight alone, they will always summon practically an army to fight alongside it. Even if he pulled a Riordan and survived, it would then become a ground fight. A ground fight where it would summon every available darkspawn and general to aid it just like in DAO. So yes, you can't kill the archdemon without also having to fight at least 50 to 100 darkspawn by yourself in the process. That's how badass Grey Wardens can be. And seeing as Hawke is Grey Warden potential, I would say soloing the high dragon fight in DA2 isn't lore breaking.

 

Just to clarify, I don't think that soloing the Dragon is lore breaking, but I think that it didn't play out the way it is in game. I need confirmation that there are people who are literally super human, Marvel style.

 

Grey Wardens in Legacy are weaklings. If I want to I can make my party kill them on Nightmare. Does this mean that Varric, Merrill and Anders can take on 4 Grey Wardens and beat them like it's nothing? Anders and Merrill alone can take out whole armies with a simple tactic. Paralysis rune, 2 firestorms and walking bomb. Really easy to do and works most of the time without micromanaging. 

 

Where the assumptions start and where they begin?

[andy6915]

As for "how", it's actually not like it totally lacks real precedents. Take fighter pilots of WW1 for instance. They either went from nothing to the top experts in very short time, or died within hours. In practices where there's no rational training methods developed (like demon slaying for example), gaining experience by surviving is extremely empowering.

 

Like the Berserk manga. Yeah fighting spirits and demons summoned by the brand is hard at first, but survive long enough at it and you eventually get pretty good at it. Sink or swim, you either learn to swim like an expert quick or you die just as quick.

[andy6915]

Just to clarify, I don't think that soloing the Dragon is lore breaking, but I think that it didn't play out the way it is in game. I need confirmation that there are people who are literally super human, Marvel style.

 

Grey Wardens in Legacy are weaklings. If I want to I can make my party kill them on Nightmare. Does this mean that Varric, Merrill and Anders can take on 4 Grey Wardens and beat them like it's nothing? Anders and Merrill alone can take out whole armies with a simple tactic. Paralysis rune, 2 firestorms and walking bomb. Really easy to do and works most of the time without micromanaging. 

 

Where the assumptions start and where they begin?

 

Anders is already a Grey Warden so he's not really an example of "non Warden versus Warden", and Merrill is a rather powerful blood mage. Blood magic let someone like Jowan (weak and pathetic excuse for a mage) defeat several templars at once in seconds, so for a skilled mage like Merrill it makes a huge difference. And Varric has a stupidly powerful automatic crossbow in a time where crossbows are still the old "load a new bolt after every shot" type, rather overpowered in the scheme of things. And besides, as I said, I think it's clear that anyone in your playable party in a DA game is definitely Warden potential. If they're playable, they're worthy of being a Warden. Anyone this isn't true for is someone who is either not playable or is just a temp character.

[In Exile]

This isn't really true -- recall that large part of RPG group combat (DA included) actually relies on making as many of your enemies as possible to focus on one of your characters, the "tank" who gets actual abilities to allow that.

The difference is usually in the player being free to focus their damage on squishier targets instead of the one most heavily armoured, if they choose so. In the situation where the AI can do that as well it comes down to positioning, as in having your characters take advantage of terrain in ways that minimize enemy's ability to focus fire on those in your group who wouldn't be able to take it. That's however pretty rare, since AI playing actually smart for a change typically leads to the player ending up frustrated and concluding "the game sucks".

 

I don't think you're giving enough weight to the AI limitations. The fact that these characters (1) can draw away all attention from other characters via the use of abilities that enemies cannot (i.e., they cannot force you to attack the character with the most HP vs. the more dangerous, higher DPS characters) and (2) party members who tank have a huge number of "turtle" abilities, e.g. reducing damage to almost 0 or negating elemental damage/knockback that enemies do not have (unless we are talking about nightmare difficulties, and then we have complaints like in DA2 with the elemental resistance that enemies have making the game "cheap") is an instance of serious asymmetry in combat. It is not asymmetry in terms of raw HP numbers or damage, but effective HP numbers and damage done through the elimination of enemy abilities that would put the player on the same footing as the AI. 

 

So I have to disagree with you: RPG combat relies on an incredible asymmetry in damage distribution, completely negating the ability of enemies to use alpha strikes while doing absolutely nothing to prevent the player from doing the same, unless the player chooses not to rely on aggro/tanking (though for the record, I almost never use tanks). 

 

This tactics works and is plausible mainly because in typical arrangements the enemies are divided into patrol teams over largerarea (and in medieval'esque settings they conveniently lack instant communication between separate patrols) While your party is fully visible in open space, the spaces where the game takes you are frequently anything *but* really 'open' -- cities, forests, castles, caverns etc and so on, all have lot of elements which break the total space into series of much smaller areas, where the enemy groups lack contact with anything but what's in their vicinity. This makes make-believe stealth and such optional rather than mandatory.

 

I have to disagree with you here, because this isn't really the player using any tactic at all - the enemies are already divided. The developers intentionally divide them, and then when combined with the AI gimping discussed in the above paragraphs, the asymmetry favours the player greatly. 

There is also the fact that enemies are stupid - they engage you 1 v 1 instead of running to get reinforcements. Even sending one person away to alert everyone else would be smart in that situation, but it never happens. All enemies fight to the death in small groups. 

 

 

I'd argue this isn't really true, as the RPG mechanics typically try to allow for and emulate this behavior with their dodge/block/parry stats, to-hit rolls, movement speeds and attack ranges. It's not perfect and the players might find silly way to abuse it but still, it exists and it exists as part of the design.

 

We're going to have to disagree a great deal here, because the mere fact that the combatants remain static and everything is abstract to dice rolls allows a great deal of absurdity to persist, especially in BG2 real-time-with-pause mechanics. In XCOM, we can talk about purely abstracted combat reduced to dice rolls because it's all turn based. 

 

But RTWP introduces a number of absurdities. In DA:O, it's the telekinesis of enemy abilities - the sonic punch of the ogre doing damage from 10 feet away being an especially egregious example. In DA:O (and I am going to bet DA:I is the same), it is the absurdity of clunky real-time dodging combined with dice-rolls for actual dodging as you get actually get hit. 

 

I think this is, unfortunately, the Dramatic Cutscene™ getting upper hand over the game's own mechanics. Cailan is supposed to die and Duncan needs to have this And Now, Some Real Rage scene seeing that, but this particular scene plays literally back to back with team of four people (two of them being regular soldiers, and two fresh Grey Warden conscripts) taking out an ogre that looks just like the one that kills Cailan, and which demonstrates that getting crushed by the ogre is either survivable or plain avoidable in the first place.

Cailan doesn't so much die because the Ogre is such incredible threat, but more due to being put in situation where the other person he's fighting that ogre with is conveniently made unable to react until The Plot says it's ok for them to react.

In any case, I don't feel this goes much against what I said regarding the power difference between PC and friends, vs more regular folks -- if the point raised is, such characters facing strong monsters would frequently wind up dead then yes, this is quite correct. But it's also why the RPGs address that issue with number of make-believe explanations and mechanics, from convenient Cure All Wounds potions they allow you to carry in bulk, through magic to (in some cases) plain resurrection. Because indeed, without these most of the RPG adventures would be very, very short.

 

As andy said, the Ogre can canonically crush someone with one bare hand. There are lots of ways to take it down despite its great strenght, but RPG combat does not work because real world combat gives us basically 3 HP. We're all super squishy. This is why we can't do anything that RPGs show us without casualities, and why individual heroes don't really exist - because we're super easy to kill. I'd argue that the cutscene works better than the game, because it shows how vulberable people are (Cailan) but also how vulnerable enemies are (because of how easily Duncn kills it). 

 

Going back on topic, I'd say that the bold is another example of asymmetry. One that, hilariously, DA2 kind of addresses by giving enemies potions, showing how absurd it is to fight something whose life bar basically continuously regenerates. 

 

Edit: I should add that I'm always worried about sound harsh in writing, and I don't mean to sound forceful or dismissive if I come across that way. I really enjoy debating gameplay with you!  

[Ryzaki]

Yeah I'm fine with the puny enemies thing.

 

being 2 shotted near end game would ****** me off.

 

And good lord don't get me started on shattershot spamming BS.

[In Exile]

Given the relative increase in power over a game, virtually every rpg should break your criteria in that case. So just take it easy with that "even a shred of credibility". Whatever importance you want to give it, I think we can say it's gone anyway.

 

Not at all. No Bioware game since KoTOR has ever had you actually start as weak and ordinary. Despite the mind wipe in KOTOR, you actually have incredible power and muscle memory - it's why you can re-learn the force in weeks. In DA:O, you are an incredible BAMF - that's why Duncan even bothers with you. The leveling up is an abstraction - you already had the skill to take down the archdemon near the start of the game. DA2 doesn't have Hawke start off weak, but it has a reasonable explanation for the power curve: a decade to perfect your murdering and mayhem. As for DA:I, while we don't know what our backgrounds are, we do know our companions are all BAMFs themselves. 

 

It's non-Bioware games that struggle a great deal more with the power curve and fall into these tropes. 

 

As for "how", it's actually not like it totally lacks real precedents. Take fighter pilots of WW1 for instance. They either went from nothing to the top experts in very short time, or died within hours. In practices where there's no rational training methods developed (like demon slaying for example), gaining experience by surviving is extremely empowering.

 

Well, there is actually a very rational explanation for this success: natural talent. Take Hakeem Olajuwon. He didn't start playing basketball until very late, though he was in athletic form. He learned the game very quickly, and became one of the best all time (easily top 10 ever). Was he ordinary? Never. He was unskilled, but not ordinary. An RPG might justifiably say that you don't know what you're doing to start - but then it just reduces you (and your party) to untrained geniuses. By virtue of being RPG protagonists, you have abandoned the ordinary label forever and all time. 

This article is informative: http://www.dailymail...st-11-days.html

 

It tells us some interesting things: 50% of pilots died in training, for example. That would mean your party should be almost decimated by the end-game. 

[Provi-dance]

I thought that the Inquisitor is supposed to be speshool because he can shut down demon holes in the sky with the palm of his hand, not because he's the Avatar of the God of War.

 

 

Regardless, I don't find it mentally stimulating when my character is presented as the default alpha who fights enemies that seem to be affected by a really powerful version of the spell "Slow" (and "Inflate HP").

[In Exile]

I thought that the Inquisitor is supposed to be speshool because he can shut down demon holes in the sky with the palm of his hand, not because he's the Avatar of the God of War.

 

Every RPG protagonist is the God of War. It's like... literally part of the contract: murder thousands of enemies with nary a scratch (and earn free Ares miles, points, redeemable for one Infinity +1 Sword!)