143 réponses à ce sujet

[Nukekitten]

I suspect if you take real combat and compare the cream of the crop; appropriately trained special forces; to town guards; police or security guards; it might be asymmetrical too. Heck, even [standard infantry] soldiers don't fire thousands of rounds a week; I remember one soldier of my acquaintance described the lead up to the invasion of Afghanistan, rather briefly, as, "We'd best make sure everyone remembers how to shoot." or something along those lines, (I forget his exact words.)

In a field battle, with sufficient numbers, I'd expect the specops folks to be overwhelmed eventually, (or if they were taken by surprise.) However, I'm not sure it would be the case that they didn't take a great many with them vs police/security guards. There are historical examples of high quality troops taking out, or surviving, a great number of enemies as well - Swordsmen of The British Empire contains a fair few examples.

Add in magical equipment, which I can only imagine would emphasise that skill disparity when one side has all the nice stuff and the other side are town guards. Add in you have a team of people who are used to fighting in a team they've practised with for months or years, (fighting in teams takes a particular skill set over and above individual skill.)

If your team practices together, has all the great equipment, has the advantage that you're the attacking force and the enemy is trying to marshal their forces in a hurry, has trained continually whereas the others have trained to a level to do their jobs. Yeah, I could see your group being able to take down a great many on the opposing side.

IRL I doubt it would work out like the mechanics in RPGs do, there's no way to get more health after all. But I could believe that it's just an imperfect modelling constrained by the limitations of the engine and desirable gameplay.

[Provi-dance]

Every RPG protagonist is the God of War. It's like... literally part of the contract: murder thousands of enemies with nary a scratch (and earn free Ares miles, points, redeemable for one Infinity +1 Sword!) 

 

You're mistaken.

The thing is that (almost) every RPG has save and load buttons that allow players to feel like they're the God of War, eventually.

 

On top of that, some RPGs construct the rules in such a way to make enemies exist on a completely different magnitude of power, doubling the God of War effect.

[In Exile]

You're mistaken.

The thing is that (almost) every RPG has save and load buttons that allow players to feel like they're the God of War, eventually.

 

On top of that, some RPGs construct the rules in such a way to make enemies exist on a completely different magnitude of power, doubling the God of War effect.

 

No, RPG mechanics are designed to make you into a good of war. Grappling in melee is impossible, mostly. 3 enemies in BG1 at low levels don't simply drag you down, disarm you, and cut your throat. Injuries don't exist - a character fights at peak physical capacity until hitting HP 0. Characters are perfectly balanced - there is no tripping, falling, stumbling, etc. Knockdowns exist, but those are inflicted on you, not self-inflicted. 

And that's just a brief overview of purely physical combat. 

[RenAdaar]

We don't know that maybe he's being bullied and let's off steam that way.

Thats still not a reason :/

[Provi-dance]

No, RPG mechanics are designed to make you into a good of war. Grappling in melee is impossible, mostly. 3 enemies in BG1 at low levels don't simply drag you down, disarm you, and cut your throat. Injuries don't exist - a character fights at peak physical capacity until hitting HP 0. Characters are perfectly balanced - there is no tripping, falling, stumbling, etc. Knockdowns exist, but those are inflicted on you, not self-inflicted. 

And that's just a brief overview of purely physical combat. 

 

Wrong, in most RPGs you're the "god of war" because you can reload and your enemies can't.

Your 3 party members in BG1, at low levels, don't simply drag an enemy down, disarm him/her, and cut his/her throat etc. etc.

 

BG1 is an excellent counterexample to the supposed 'god of war' general rule. A wolf can kill you with a single bite, at level 1.

[In Exile]

Wrong, in most RPGs you're the "god of war" because you can reload and your enemies can't.

Your 3 party members in BG1, at low levels, don't simply drag an enemy down, disarm him/her, and cut his/her throat etc. etc.

 

BG1 is an excellent counterexample to the supposed 'god of war' general rule. A wolf can kill you with a single bite, at level 1.

 

No, you're still wrong. In BG1, you can get 1-hit KO'd because of the assymetry between HP and damage, but you're still a god of war because of the way combat is shown, and the second you get out of level 1-4 combat in D&D, it's pure war god from there on. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

No, you're still wrong. In BG1, you can get 1-hit KO'd because of the assymetry between HP and damage, but you're still a god of war because of the way combat is shown, and the second you get out of level 1-4 combat in D&D, it's pure war god from there on.

You can still get killed by Vampiric Wolves or Ankhegs or Basilisks (or a great many things in the TotSC expansion) if you don't have appropriate equipment or tactics.

But what's important from.a symmetry standpoint is that the same rules govern everyone. Sure, once you're level 4 you can slaughter whole towns (there's a xvart village where you do exactly that), but those enemies are merely a lower level than you. They aren't different in kind. The bandits in the forest aren't weaker than you because they are bandits; they are weaker than you because they are a lower level. Any of them could gain levels and challenge you; they just don't.

But with an asymmetrical system like DA2, the enemies seem to exist in a different reality. As I said in another thread today, why is there ever war in Thedas if everyone (except Hawke and friends) can't hit hard enough to hurt each other?

[Sylvius the Mad]

No, RPG mechanics are designed to make you into a good of war. Grappling in melee is impossible, mostly. 3 enemies in BG1 at low levels don't simply drag you down, disarm you, and cut your throat. Injuries don't exist - a character fights at peak physical capacity until hitting HP 0. Characters are perfectly balanced - there is no tripping, falling, stumbling, etc. Knockdowns exist, but those are inflicted on you, not self-inflicted.
And that's just a brief overview of purely physical combat.

With every D&D CRPG that ever came out, I asked for an implementation of the overbearing rules. And it never happened.

The closest we ever got was with the Overwhelm ability in DAO, which I loved.

[Deflagratio]

But what's important from.a symmetry standpoint is that the same rules govern everyone.

 

There's a lot of room to pick that apart though. When you start adding exceptions or special cases to the rules which I would argue Racial or Size bonuses could be interpreted as such an inconsistency/exception in D&D.  If this is okay, the argument basically devolves into an ever receding line of preference. Which is perfectly fine and more entertaining, if not altogether productive, unless you expect a Great Wyrm class enemy to have 56hp and the same AC as a halfling.

 

In game design, you want internal consistency, the same rules you enter the game with are the same rules through the entire game. The values therein are just arbitrary values to be tweaked to balance the experience for maximum enjoyment.

 

If all the NPC's have a global HP boost/bloated HP pools, that's technically a consistent rule. NPCs and the PCs are not the same entity. Now if you had 2 PC's of the same level with radically different HP values, that's an inconsistency. And even that could be subject to the modifications of another rule like buffs.

 

But with an asymmetrical system like DA2, the enemies seem to exist in a different reality. As I said in another thread today, why is there ever war in Thedas if everyone (except Hawke and friends) can't hit hard enough to hurt each other?

 

Using an outlier as a global condemnation is called anecdotal evidence. Then again, creating such an outlier in itself could be said to be poor design execution, I certainly would hate to see that level of power disparity between player and enemy in DA:I so don't assume I necessarily disagree with you.

[Provi-dance]

No, you're still wrong. In BG1, you can get 1-hit KO'd because of the assymetry between HP and damage, but you're still a god of war because of the way combat is shown, and the second you get out of level 1-4 combat in D&D, it's pure war god from there on. 

 

LoL

How does the vulnerability of level 1-4 characters, in BG1 for instance, feed into your theory that all RPG protagonists are gods of war?

The god of war wouldn't die from a wolf bite.

[Schreckstoff]

LoL
How does the vulnerability of level 1-4 characters, in BG1 for instance, feed into your theory that all RPG protagonists are gods of war?
The god of war wouldn't die from a wolf bite.

Sure as at the start of a game God of War characters are usually being robbed of their divinity.

[In Exile]

LoL

How does the vulnerability of level 1-4 characters, in BG1 for instance, feed into your theory that all RPG protagonists are gods of war?

The god of war wouldn't die from a wolf bite.

 

Because being open to 1-hit KOs does not somehow make you incompetent at combat. In the real world, a well-trained and well armoured person being attacked by 3 wolves who will fight to the death is an even battle, where a single mistake or two can lead to death. 

 

The things that make the PC super competent aren't HP pools - it's all of the things that real melee warriors deal with that don't exist in low-level D&D combat, which I've already outlined. The fact that combat is random dice rolls that could lead to fast deaths is actually the only thing ever in BG2 that makes combat look like what real world combat with expert, highly trained warriors. 

 

By the time you get to level 5+, you're an unstoppable engine of death compared to any IRL person with a pointy stick of metal. 

[Gtdef]

If the game really wants to it can simulate realistic combat. Weapon physics, bleeding effects, vital spot hits. I don't think that rpg mechanics inherently make the player a god of war. You can simulate cuts really easy. Keep the health pools, add a percentage bleeding effect that continues to stack for each additional cut. By the time you reach 50% of your healthpool you go into shock.

 

Vital spot hits should have huge bleeding effect, effectively giving you seconds to live without the use of healing magic or something. 

There you have it, almost perfect simulation of real life damage.

 

Add effects that last for a long time, leg damage will leave the player slowed and unbalanced till it gets healed either by a lot time passing or magic, and the first aid skill to reduce the penalties instead of fixing them. You can randomize the injuries, make them more active (target the parts , or just add specific part attacks, like for example "hamstring attack", that most games do but the effects are either mild or irrelevant with the implications of the attack in real life. You can even make players that have severe damage to be unable to move unless healed by magic.

 

And then make an armor system that has weight, limiting your movement and maneuverability, but give bonuses like heavy boots that make you "immune to lower leg injury". So the player can choose between movement and protection. Dark Souls does something like that.

 

Make constitution to counter effects from poisons or weather hazards and magical spell effects. Doesn't have to be the all around effective defense increase. So a lone wolf/tracker may want a higher healthpool, but an assassin not because he is not supposed to take this kind of damage. After all, even if you are the biggest, baddest guy around, you will die from a severed carotid artery the same as anyone.

 

Add coup de grace effects against knocked down enemies. Whatever. I have a lot of ideas.

 

All of these are actually pretty easy to do. All they need is the will to do it. But if it doesn't fit their idea of how they want the game to be, then they can't.

[andy6915]

If the game really wants to it can simulate realistic combat. Weapon physics, bleeding effects, vital spot hits. I don't think that rpg mechanics inherently make the player a god of war. You can simulate cuts really easy. Keep the health pools, add a percentage bleeding effect that continues to stack for each additional cut. By the time you reach 50% of your healthpool you go into shock.

 

Vital spot hits should have huge bleeding effect, effectively giving you seconds to live without the use of healing magic or something. 

There you have it, almost perfect simulation of real life damage.

 

Add effects that last for a long time, leg damage will leave the player slowed and unbalanced till it gets healed either by a lot time passing or magic, and the first aid skill to reduce the penalties instead of fixing them. You can randomize the injuries, make them more active (target the parts , or just add specific part attacks, like for example "hamstring attack", that most games do but the effects are either mild or irrelevant with the implications of the attack in real life. You can even make players that have severe damage to be unable to move unless healed by magic.

 

And then make an armor system that has weight, limiting your movement and maneuverability, but give bonuses like heavy boots that make you "immune to lower leg injury". So the player can choose between movement and protection. Dark Souls does something like that.

 

Make constitution to counter effects from poisons or weather hazards and magical spell effects. Doesn't have to be the all around effective defense increase. So a lone wolf/tracker may want a higher healthpool, but an assassin not because he is not supposed to take this kind of damage. After all, even if you are the biggest, baddest guy around, you will die from a severed carotid artery the same as anyone.

 

Add coup de grace effects against knocked down enemies. Whatever. I have a lot of ideas.

 

All of these are actually pretty easy to do. All they need is the will to do it. But if it doesn't fit their idea of how they want the game to be, then they can't.

 

Well that would make an interesting game. Not right for Dragon Age, but that would be a rather unique gameplay style.

[movieguyabw]

Well that would make an interesting game. Not right for Dragon Age, but that would be a rather unique gameplay style.

 

I agree.  It sounds interesting - but sounds more like something that should be implemented in something like Dark Souls; ie something that's specifically designed to provide a real challenge for players.  DA's focus is more on story, than challenging encounters. 

[Gtdef]

Yea, I don't think that would work for DA either. The scope is different. You can't make a concept of blood loss without survival mechanics for example. As long as rpg games use the concept of "battle space", that being, "combat mechanics are only relevant in combat", then I don't see this as a good idea.

[Sidney]

Because being open to 1-hit KOs does not somehow make you incompetent at combat. In the real world, a well-trained and well armoured person being attacked by 3 wolves who will fight to the death is an even battle, where a single mistake or two can lead to death. 

 

The things that make the PC super competent aren't HP pools - it's all of the things that real melee warriors deal with that don't exist in low-level D&D combat, which I've already outlined. The fact that combat is random dice rolls that could lead to fast deaths is actually the only thing ever in BG2 that makes combat look like what real world combat with expert, highly trained warriors. 

 

By the time you get to level 5+, you're an unstoppable engine of death compared to any IRL person with a pointy stick of metal. 

 

The simple fact is that you don't care about being "hit" other than at level 1 or 2 in BG1 -- and that isn't true in DAO anymore or anything from Skyrim or the Witcher where one hit kills are passe.  What makes real combat dangerous is one stray bullet from some some stoned and untrained Somali militiaman can kill a highly trained and elite Delta Force operator so no matter how good you are the danger never goes away. There is no real world version of a person who is a tank and even armoured knights were not gonna just sit and shurg off most blows that befell them.

 

That isn't true in any RPG that exists where there is no orc, guardsmen, bandit or even Ogre that is much threat to kill you quickly. Even in BG2 something like the Liches were only a threat if they could time stop you and then use the egregious amount of turns AD&D rules gave them to wail on you over an extended series of turns. 90% of the fights you are in don't even appear to be designed to threaten your life but serve as little more than XP gaining sessions. In DAO, for example, if you didn't see an orange bad guy you were never in any real danger even if you left your people on their AI tactics.

[In Exile]

If the game really wants to it can simulate realistic combat. Weapon physics, bleeding effects, vital spot hits. I don't think that rpg mechanics inherently make the player a god of war. You can simulate cuts really easy. Keep the health pools, add a percentage bleeding effect that continues to stack for each additional cut. By the time you reach 50% of your healthpool you go into shock.

 

Vital spot hits should have huge bleeding effect, effectively giving you seconds to live without the use of healing magic or something. 

There you have it, almost perfect simulation of real life damage.

 

Add effects that last for a long time, leg damage will leave the player slowed and unbalanced till it gets healed either by a lot time passing or magic, and the first aid skill to reduce the penalties instead of fixing them. You can randomize the injuries, make them more active (target the parts , or just add specific part attacks, like for example "hamstring attack", that most games do but the effects are either mild or irrelevant with the implications of the attack in real life. You can even make players that have severe damage to be unable to move unless healed by magic.

 

And then make an armor system that has weight, limiting your movement and maneuverability, but give bonuses like heavy boots that make you "immune to lower leg injury". So the player can choose between movement and protection. Dark Souls does something like that.

 

Make constitution to counter effects from poisons or weather hazards and magical spell effects. Doesn't have to be the all around effective defense increase. So a lone wolf/tracker may want a higher healthpool, but an assassin not because he is not supposed to take this kind of damage. After all, even if you are the biggest, baddest guy around, you will die from a severed carotid artery the same as anyone.

 

Add coup de grace effects against knocked down enemies. Whatever. I have a lot of ideas.

 

All of these are actually pretty easy to do. All they need is the will to do it. But if it doesn't fit their idea of how they want the game to be, then they can't.

 

All of this sounds like a phenomenally interesting system. I didn't mean to suggest that RPGs can't be realistic in how they portray combat. Just that they haven't been realistic, so to suggest that somehow DA:I is going against the trend instead of being the same as every other entry in the cRPG box is my issue. 

[Provi-dance]

 

 

By the time you get to level 5+, you're an unstoppable engine of death 

 

Right. Let's analyze that.

 

To recapitulate... what have we learned already?  We've learned that our level 1 - 4 characters are rather squishy in comparison to a God of War.

 

Now, our fighter reaches level 5 and becomes the God of War himself, yes?

Then this deity decides to explore a dungeon and encounters a carrion crawler. The fighter fails the saving throw and becomes dust in a couple of rounds. Very deity.