99 réponses à ce sujet

[luna1124]

When you first played the game, were you intimidated by Loghain in the lands meet? He made me so nervous!! O_o But then I fought him and won. Had Alistair chop off his head.

 

I just wondered if it is different for men and women playing.

[DrBlingzle]

Not really intimidated. I kind of respected him as a worthy enemy and actually got a pang of sympathy just before I killed him. One of the best video game antagonists IMO.   

[Althix]

Intrigued? yes. there are very few situations when you can face this character head on.

Intimidated. not really.

 

and at the end it pays off. Loghain is a mature man, interesting character, and a better choice than Alistair across the board.

[theskymoves]

Not intimidated, no. I thought he was something of an inept, out of touch, lying blowhard by that point... what's the expression? "All hat. No cattle."?

[Xetykins]

Happy at first. I thought yaay Loghain from the books ( was 2 yrs late playing this game). After ostagar im like....L-loghan?. After Lothering its like...wtf Loghain?!?!?!. After zev, I was too busy planing how to cut his head off wih a blunt butter knife.

[Jeffonl1]

Loghain is compelling but my feeling was that he had become a caricature of what he was...
More that that, my feeling was more disappointment and perhaps pity.

[Basher of Glory]

Not intimidated... but blind with hate!

 

In all my countless playthroughs I NEVER EVER considered to "trade" him for Alistair. Not, because I like Alistair too much; in my eyes Loghain stands for all that what powerhungry politicians do:

 

Living in the past, justifying everything with "we do it for our homeland", reigning by terror, join respectively support other traitors and criminals like Rendon Howe and so on.

 

Very well written and for me the "parable of the politician next door".

[Ryzaki]

Nope.

He was raving lunatic about orlesians. I thought he belonged in a psych ward.

[KaiserShep]

There was nothing crazy about his concerns over the Orlesians returning to Ferelden, considering the history between the two countries. In his position, I'd be exceptionally wary of any significant presence of chevaliers, after fighting to kick them out of the country in the first place.

[Ryzaki]

There was nothing crazy about his concerns over the Orlesians returning to Ferelden, considering the history between the two countries. In his position, I'd be exceptionally wary of any significant presence of chevaliers, after fighting to kick them out of the country in the first place.

 

Yes there was when he was constantly accusing the wardens of killing Cailan (which was complete BS) and suggesting that they lost Ostagar on purpose (as if losing all their Fereldan numbers makes any damn sense.) The Chevaliers =! wardens. He should know that. Nevermind that the warden's origins have squat to do with orlais and they may have never even seen an Orlesian in his/her life. (excluding Leliana).

 

If he had been just concerned about the chevaliers with the wardens you'd have a point. That's not what he does. He rants and raves about the warden putting Alistair on the throne as an Orlesian puppet.

[KaiserShep]

Accusing the Wardens wasn't crazy. Malicious and convenient, sure, but not insane. A big part of the problem remains in his ignorance of the full extent of the Wardens' importance in the war with the archdemon.

[Ryzaki]

Accusing the Wardens wasn't crazy. Malicious and convenient, sure, but not insane. A big part of the problem remains in his ignorance of the full extent of the Wardens' importance in the war with the archdemon.

 

It's not insane to suggest an order who's whole existence evolves around combating the blight and darkspawn would not only strengthen the current one but weaken their numbers to do so?

 

Especially when they're not that large to begin with?

 

Really? Where on WHAT planet does that make sense? Loghain doesn't need to know how important Wardens are to realize no they wouldn't throw a good portion of their small order under the bus to kill Cailan's stupid ass. Much less allow the darkspawn's numbers to swell with extra numbers and captives. There is a reason everyone's reaction to Loghain's blaming the wardens is a "that's clearly bull****"

[KaiserShep]

Don't get me wrong. I think Loghain is stupid, and he grossly miscalculated in his thoughts that he could successfully unite Ferelden under his banner after abandoning Cailan. However he felt about the Orlesians or the Wardens, I kill him for his stupidity as well as his allegiance with Howe. I just don't think that he's crazy.

[Ryzaki]

Don't get me wrong. I think Loghain is stupid, and he grossly miscalculated in his thoughts that he could successfully unite Ferelden under his banner after abandoning Cailan. However he felt about the Orlesians or the Wardens, I kill him for his stupidity as well as his allegiance with Howe. I just don't think that he's crazy.

 

That's fair enough but I don't see him acting sane. Especially not with his raving at the landsmeet. His ORLESIAN SPIES to ONLY YOU CAN SAVE FERELDAN is just so wut inducing it took a while for me to even not kill him immediately. But this is clearly a YMMV situation.

[Hazegurl]

I like and dislike Loghain, this is how I felt during my first play through as well. I had respect for him but I also hated him. I wanted to kill him so bad near the end until the Landsmeet. I actually stopped and thought of his pov, mainly to try and see if it made any sense. I think Loghain's biggest flaw is that he was so focused on the future problem that he was ignoring how serious the present problems are. However, he was justified in his feelings. If I had went through the same as he, I too would have been highly skeptical about the Orlesian Wardens. According to him, what's stopping them from from ending the blight and taking advantage of Ferelden's weakened forces and questionable leadership(Anora being accepted) and deciding to stay. If not the Wardens but any Orlesian forces that could arrive with them or after them. There presence could be an auto invite for them to move in...mind you I don't believe that but I think this as a saner version of Loghain's point.  I also think that if Duncan had not been speaking "monk" to everyone and just come right out and say why Wardens are needed to stop Blights then it PROBABLY could have made a difference. When a Warden who has been with you for six months doesn't even know why Wardens are needed to stop Blights then something is wrong.

 

Anyway, Loghain, for all his faults, IMO, doesn't deserve to have his head rolling on some floor. He was a good man who was willing to do the extreme to keep his country safe. He's a long term thinker, not a short term one. I didn't think he was raving until it was clear he was losing and I chuck it off as emotions more than him being out right crazy. He actually had some pretty good comebacks to some of the choices the Warden can pick.  I prefer to let him fight and die as Grey Warden (though I always take the DR), why not? They need dedicated people in their ranks, especially when you consider what they had to deal with in Anders. *facepalm* If I could have replaced Anders with Loghain for Awakening, that would have been awesome.

[Dabrikishaw]

First time playing, all I could think about was how happy I was when I finally got to kill him.

[TEWR]

I wasn't intimidated by him. To be honest, I admired him. My DN heard tales of the Hero of River Dane who was the primary reason behind the liberation of Ferelden and was honored to be granted an audience with him. And he looked over a lot of the details of Ostagar and came to the conclusion that the battle would at best be extremely difficult and at worst be a Pyrrhic victory. In the end, he knew that it was indeed a disaster.

 

He saw that only a handful of mages were there, with not even that many Templars to boot. He heard Cailan go on and on about glory while denying the addition of his uncle's forces, which is a very asinine mentality because Cailan isn't even considering the lives that are going to be lost in his quest for glory. He heard the accounts of tainted soldiers about the strength of the horde. He saw how Cailan blundered the plan by launching only one volley of arrows, wasting the Mabari troops, and charging out into the open exposing their flanks (and urging them to charge out!). And the Wardens being idiotically quiet about things also was a problem.

 

The Darkspawn taking the Tower was the final nail in the coffin and he was honestly surprised he didn't die, but he didn't hold Loghain accountable for the battle's disaster. Not entirely.

 

Hard to fault a man like that for making the most of his resources.

 

Yeah, there is. If you're faced with two potential dangers, be concerned with the actual danger. The one that's actually killing your people. Don't ignore the actual danger to try to prevent the imaginary one that might happen.

 

Anora: "Shouldn't we be fighting the darkspawn instead of each other?"

Loghain: "The nobles need to be brought to line, and then the darkspawn."

 

Loghain: "Blah blah blah Orlais, blah blah blah."

Warden: "The Blight is the true threat, not Orlais."

Bann Alfstanna: "There are plenty of refugees in my camp to make that abundantly clear."

Arl Wulff: "The South has fallen, Loghain. Would you let the darkspawn take the entire country for fear of Orlais?"

 

He wouldn't even accept help from or agree to unite with Alistair and the Warden because they're Grey Wardens, therefore they MUST be Orlesian! Never mind that Alistair and the Warden are both Ferelden, born and raised. Or Orzammar raised if dwarven, or neutral on human governments if Dalish. It's the paranoid ravings of a lunatic, not a mentally sound man giving the right amount of attention to the actual danger and necessary precautions on a potential threat without subtracting from dealing with the true threat.

 

You neglect to mention his initial comments in the first Landsmeet post-Ostagar.

 

Loghain: And I expect each of you to supply these men. We must rebuild what was lost at Ostgar and quickly. There are those who would take advantage of our weakened state if we let them. We must defeat this Darkspawn incursion but we must do so sensibly and without hesitation."

 

Here he's saying point blank that the Darkspawn are the imminent threat and they must be dealt with. He's also telling the Bannorn that after the death of their king, other nations would see this as an opportune moment to come in and manipulate things for their own benefit. The loss of a king without an heir would create a power vacuum that would lead to a civil war. So he fills it by naming himself Anora's Regent, which she's okay with initially (politically, she had to be to help keep things stable).

 

Orlais has a noted history of using wars as a means to expand their territory through subtle methods. They did it to Nevarra during a Blight and to Kirkwall during the Qunari Wars. Both times they were booted out by a rebellion. They're not the only ones, as Tevinter did it to the Anderfels during the same Blight Orlais took Nevarra (in fact, it was an agreement between Tevinter and Orlais that led to them taking each nation).

 

He wants the nobility to unite under him so that in the eyes of Orlais, they won't appear consumed by petty politics. They'll be seen as stronger as a result. And while his methods were ******-poor at uniting them, his intentions were clear. But I can see how they would take issue with it, as it has Orlesian connotations beneath it all.

 

What happens after this utterance? Teagan speaks up, and while he's altruistic in his intent and has reasons to doubt Loghain, his words end up inflaming the Bannorn. Notice how after he says it the Bannorn goes "Ooohhhh!!!" in a way that says "Well ****, that is something!"

 

It's still short-sighted as all hell though to take issue with the man who believes, regardless of whether they're Blight level or not, that the Darkspawn are the immediate threat. And when the Bannorn launches the first blow in the Civil War, he has to divert his attention to them because the Blight, which is located in the South, cannot be dealt with unless there's a united front. The Bannorn stands in the way geographically and would present a threat to the forces marching and their supply lines.

 

Fighting a war on multiple fronts is not easy. The more fronts, the less likely a chance of victory. Doesn't matter how skilled a general one is, that's a basic fact of warfare.

 

Everyone always says "Loghain ignored the Darkspawn!" when he and Anora were the only people post-Ostagar who actually gave a damn about the Darkspawn. Teagan? More concerned with politics and antagonizing the Bannorn. Eamon? More concerned with trying to claim the moral high ground (of which he's far from it) and putting Alistair on the throne as a puppet ruler.

 

As for Alistair, consider the following: He was raised by a traditionalist asshat who married an Orlesian woman. Said asshat is putting forth Alistair as the one to take the throne, with no inclination as to what will happen to Anora. Given that the Wardens were exiled for going against the crown once in the past, were agents of Orlais in the past before the Third Blight, some of them ended up involved in a conspiracy designed to Ghoulify the continent, and it's easy to see how Alistair might be used as an agent of Orlais.

 

The idea is that Orlais would be trying to put on the throne a Theirin to satisfy nationalist/traditionalist sentiments while also giving them the means to further their own interests. Being Fereldan born doesn't mean one can't be a traitor. Look at Rendon Howe and, moreover, Tarleton Howe... the latter of whom sided with the Orlesians.

 

As for other origins, I can still see the merit in accusing some of them, if not every one of them, of siding with Orlais. Look at the boons. Look at his comment on what it took for the Empress to buy their loyalty. Now back at the boons, now back at the comments. Boons, comments.

 

That's what I'm getting at. It's still possible. The Wardens aren't beholden to a nation which many find questionable as it makes their loyalty up in the air and they've shown in the past that they'll do anything in the name of fighting a Blight. Who's to say it isn't possible that Wardens would weaken Ferelden to get past a few barriers and have the Orlesians come in with their military might and not care of the repercussions Ferelden would face?

 

Ignoring the history between Orlais and the world and the history of the Wardens, while also ignoring the things the Warden does that puts them far and away from the moral high ground, isn't good.

 

Furthermore, at the Landsmeet we're a part of, he admits the Blight is real (when before he admitted the Darkspawn were a threat, he didn't believe they were a Blight-level threat. No one really did to be honest, outside of the Wardens). He also questions the necessity of the Grey Wardens. Meta knowledge is great and all but no one knew why the Wardens were needed during Blights. They don't tell people that. Jory and Daveth didn't know about the Joining. We didn't know. Nathaniel Howe didn't know. Hawke didn't know. Anders didn't know. And so on and so forth.

 

Well, except for Genitivi somehow knowing. Though given how his stories are considered fanciful by his contemporaries per his codex and how no one knew the truth about Soldier's Peak I surmise people didn't even bother taking it seriously. Anora seems to know, but given that Howe and Loghain took the encrypted pages from the Warden storehouse along with their supplies I surmise that Loghain was attempting to decipher the truth about the Wardens, since they never told him ****, but never found it out.

 

Not quite sure how Anora knows about the Joining's fatality though.

[Lhawke]

I was a little intimidated by the actual duel I suppose rather than Loghain specifically.  It was proving time for my warden.

[gottaloveme]

Nervous yes. First my warden and then Alistair killed him and then not so scary. Alistair hyped up on dexterity didn't even need a lot of poultices. Imagine my relief tho' the one and only time the Landsmeet was in consensus and there was no brawl - only the challenge.

[Xetykins]

I think he wants to be intimidating. But failed miserably.
Loghain: *bust thrusts*
Warden: mwahahaha mine is bigger than yours!
Loghain: At least mine are real, warden!
Warden: *whimpers*

[DrBlingzle]

I was really anxious to kill that bastard an make Alistair marry his daughter. Oh the irony. I never laughed so much before in my life. In another run I defeated him but Alistair chopped off his head then I married Anora. Laughed even harder after that. In my last run I killed him, made Alistair King, and incarcerated Anora. I prefer she be executed to end the bloodline and ensure a future w/o their kind. Out of the three OP, which would you prefer? Honestly, I cant decide which of the three is funniest.

Well you've certainly got an interesting sense of humor.