99 réponses à ce sujet

[luna1124]

I have played all the scenario's and I prefer being queen (human noble female) with Alistair as my king. But this has nothing to do with being intimidated by Loghain. Yes, my first 2 plays I was very nervous to fight him.

[sylvanaerie]

Very first time I was a little nervous only because I don't play these games well, and I worried I wouldn't be able to handle the combat--even in "Easy" mode.  (PC, no mods version).  Then I discovered it was actually really easy.  Then I replayed and replayed and replayed that scene over and over, I had such a hate on for the bastard it felt good getting resolution like that.  I didn't like killing him in front of his daughter, but killing him felt damn good after spending the entire game listening to his "Orleasian spies" accusations.  Apparently the only Grey Wardens are all Orleasian, according to this mook.  Frankly once the Landsmeet is over and he's lying in 2 parts on the floor, the rest of the story was kind of anticlimatic.

 

Intimidated by the character?  No.  Intimidated by my own lack of skill?  I shouldn't have been, the Broodmother was a harder fight for me.

[luna1124]

Intimidated by the character?  No.  Intimidated by my own lack of skill?  I shouldn't have been, the Broodmother was a harder fight for me.

Yea, that broodmother was bad news. And she was one ugly ______ ______!!!

[Jedimaster88]

I didnt feel intimidated by him, only angry. After everything I went through, I just wanted him to finally shut his mouth. First I turned people against him and then I kicked his ass. It felt satisfying. The execution thing was a bit unpleasant but overall it felt good to finally get rid of him.

[DrBlingzle]

Now my favourite scenario is sparing Loghain to give him the chance to redeem himself as grey warden, get hardened Alistair and Anora to rule together and cry about my broken friendship with Alistair. Perfect.  

[Jaison1986]

Now my favourite scenario is sparing Loghain to give him the chance to redeem himself as grey warden, get hardened Alistair and Anora to rule together and cry about my broken friendship with Alistair. Perfect.  

 

I did the exact same thing, but to me, what I felt was "gone and good riddance" have fun at the court Alistair.

 

As for me being intimidated at him. Not really. Unless I marry Anora. Loghain would make for an scary father-in-law.

[rosey1579]

I was probably intimidated by Loghain, but on my first playthrough this happened:

I ask for an audience with Loghain

Loghain's guard: I suppose you have a message for him, wait here

My brother: He's gonna betray you

 

Moment ruined.

[Hazegurl]

 

That's what I'm getting at. It's still possible. The Wardens aren't beholden to a nation which many find questionable as it makes their loyalty up in the air and they've shown in the past that they'll do anything in the name of fighting a Blight. Who's to say it isn't possible that Wardens would weaken Ferelden to get past a few barriers and have the Orlesians come in with their military might and not care of the repercussions Ferelden would face?

 

 

I can see this as a possibility. If I was an Orlesian Warden I most likely wouldn't give two figs about Ferelden's past with Orlais. Actually I didn't care at all during my play through. A Warden's mission is to stop Blights, period. Knowing the dire state of the Wardens in Ferelden and what happened at Ostagar (which I partly blame Loghain for) I most likely would have marched every Warden into the country along with any Orlesian force available and not care at all about the motivations behind giving me those forces. Ferelden is just one country, one that could fall to the Blight and take every other country with it. Who cares what the Orlesian forces do with the place once they are there. If their numbers stop the Blight then that would be all I need. That's probably another good reason for Loghain not to trust the Wardens.

[Alehazar]

Intimidated, no. Annoyed, very. I expected him to start barking about Orlais, yada yada. I just wish I'd have had the opportunity to shut him up with my fist in his teeth. After all he did to secure his relatively smooth bid for the throne upon Caillain's demise -eliminate the Couslands, poison Arl Eamon, make a pact with Uldred- I was really tired of his loudmouth antics. All I wanted to say was: "Who stands with Loghain, who stands with us?". And if Loghain'd win, I'd step aside and let Ferelden be destroyed. (I was so tired of it all by the time the Landsmeet began.)

[LeeAmnesia]

One of the best video game antagonists IMO.

Agreed. His character is a lot more complex than people realize.

[dragonflight288]

My first playthrough, I was a little intimidated, at least that first time we fought. I had a mage character as my first run-through and he was not built for melee combat, and I completely bypassed the Arcane Warrior spec unlock because I just rushed through the ruins, so I kept getting killed and had pretty much no armor. 

 

Now though, I'm not intimidated by him at all. I'm certainly angry at selling elves into slavery and poisoning Eamon and knowingly hiring a blood mage to do it, even if the blood mage turned out to be the woefully incompetent Jowan. In many ways, I pity him. He can't see past his hatred of Orlais, and sees an Orlesian plot in nearly everything, from the games to the books. Granted, he's usually right about Orlesians being up to something, but even in the books he is usually dead wrong in his conclusions on what they're actually doing, even if what he noticed is related. 

 

At the same time, I can't dismiss his claims when at the Landsmeet he gives the number four legions of chevalier's coming, and Riordin gives a completely different, and much larger number to the Warden upon releasing him from Howe and the fact that Orlais has a history of coming to aid another country suffering from a blight and then never leaving. That is how they occupied Nevarra during and after the third blight. 

[Pateu]

His mother was raped and killed by orlesians in front of him.

 

His dog was taken and forced to breed with the Orlesian mabaris.

 

I see where he is coming from. He has all the reasons in the world to hate the Orlesians. But he could've disposed of Cailan -WITHOUT- throwing Ferelden into a civil war and weakening it more than ever.

 

He is more afraid of Orlais than of The Blight, which is dumb. Ironically, his actions lead to Ferelden being at its worst, despite his intention to make it stronger.

[dragonflight288]

His mother was raped and killed by orlesians in front of him.

 

His dog was taken and forced to breed with the Orlesian mabaris.

 

I see where he is coming from. He has all the reasons in the world to hate the Orlesians. But he could've disposed of Cailan -WITHOUT- throwing Ferelden into a civil war and weakening it more than ever.

 

He is more afraid of Orlais than of The Blight, which is dumb. Ironically, his actions lead to Ferelden being at its worst, despite his intention to make it stronger.

 

 

He didn't intend to dispose of Cailan. He worked very hard to keep him off the front lines and Cailan woudn't have it. David Gaider said if he felt like the battle could've been won, he would've charged. His decision to retreat was based on a split-second decision when the beacon was lit as he felt the battle couldn't be won. 

 

And yes, he was more afraid of Orlais than the blight, especially since he, and nearly every other person in Ferelden, didn't think it was an actual blight. It was only towards the end that they acknowledged that it was one. 

[sylvanaerie]

His mother was raped and killed by orlesians in front of him.

 

His dog was taken and forced to breed with the Orlesian mabaris.

 

I see where he is coming from. He has all the reasons in the world to hate the Orlesians. But he could've disposed of Cailan -WITHOUT- throwing Ferelden into a civil war and weakening it more than ever.

 

He is more afraid of Orlais than of The Blight, which is dumb. Ironically, his actions lead to Ferelden being at its worst, despite his intention to make it stronger.

 

This is why I don't read prequel books.  Not interested in 'where he's coming from'.  Unless my character is old enough to have been under Orleasian occupation, she wouldn't be connected to that mindset.  He's so busy chasing off the enemies in his head, he fails to see the real threat right under his nose.

 

Orlais would have made Fereldans miserable.  The darkspawn, being anathema to all life, would have made Ferelden unlivable.  Chevaliers might rape women, but the darkspawn would turn them into broodmothers.

[dragonflight288]

 

Orlais would have made Fereldans miserable.  The darkspawn, being anathema to all life, would have made Ferelden unlivable.  Chevaliers might rape women, but the darkspawn would turn them into broodmothers.

 

 

I agree with a lot of your post, he was seeing a larger threat from Orlais than he was the darkspawn, I simply don't think he had a reason to truly believe it was a blight at the time in Ostagar. Cailan didn't believe it, the soldiers didn't believe, most of them were shocked that darkspawn were back in the world as, as Alistair said if you continue talking to him after meeting him but before returning to Duncan, so many darkspawn were killed in the fourth blight that the surface pretty much pretended that the darkspawn were gone for good and stuck their fingers in their ears singing "la la la" about the possibility of another blight.

 

It doesn't excuse his actions after the battle, nor does it excuse the actions of the nobles who also fought in civil war to the point that pretty much all of southern Ferelden was consumed by the blight and many of the banns, like Arl Wolfe, lost everything because they didn't have the manpower to defend themselves with, but I think it's fair to point this out. 

 

However, I simply think it's also important to address the very last part of your post. Now, the Wardens and the dwarves know about broodmothers, but I think the devs have said that our Warden is the one who discovers HOW broodmothers are made, and no one before knew about what darkspawn did to women. 

 

Now, none of this takes away from the point of your post in any way, but I'm pretty sure the devs have said that not even the wardens knew about how broodmothers came to be, so I don't think it's logical to expect Loghain to know it either. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 27 juillet 2014 - 08:16 .

[sylvanaerie]

Problem is, Blight or just really large darkspawn incursion, he was there in Ostagar, he saw the horde and chose to turn and run instead of fight.  Whether that was a wrong or right choice, we will never know.  He may have lost the rest of the army along with the king's men and the wardens in a fruitless battle.  Yet, still he denied the threat was as great as his own eyes presented to him.  I am unsure if he even believes it was a Blight by the time of the Landsmeet or still in denial, and just paying lip service to his fellow countrymen.  Once committed to a course, wrong or right, he just goes forward and refuses to take off the blinders until forced.

 

While I don't expect him to know about Broodmothers and how they came about (or maybe they DO know about Broodmothers, just not where they came from, the game isn't too clear about that--seems to me since it's been 1000 years the dwarves at least would know), I merely brought it up to illustrate that the threat of darkspawn (even a large excursion of the creatures who's very presence taints the land and makes it unlivable--years later, Lothering is still unlivable according to a letter Hawke gets) would supercede any threat he could perceive from Orlais.

[dragonflight288]

*shrug* Fair enough, but recall that he did at least try to unite the bannorn to go back south and deal with the darkspawn, only they didn't want to, some questioning his judgement at Ostagar, some wanting to put themselves on the throne, and they gathered allies to fight him, so Loghain was forced to either bring them in line or try to unite under someone else's banner who wasn't his daughter, effectively deposing her. 

 

He chose to bring them in line then deal with the darkspawn, and the results was a civil war that kept Ferelden fighting itself and not the darkspawn. 

 

Loghain wasn't the only one who had poor judgement when it came to that. Teagan is equally guilty of having poor judgment as he felt resisting Loghain was more important than fighting the darkspawn. Along with all the other nobles who decided to fight each other. 

 

Loghain bears blame there, certainly, but I don't think it's fair to say he holds ALL of it. 

[MWImexico]

*shrug* Fair enough, but recall that he did at least try to unite the bannorn to go back south and deal with the darkspawn, only they didn't want to, some questioning his judgement at Ostagar, some wanting to put themselves on the throne, and they gathered allies to fight him, so Loghain was forced to either bring them in line or try to unite under someone else's banner who wasn't his daughter, effectively deposing her. 

 

He chose to bring them in line then deal with the darkspawn, and the results was a civil war that kept Ferelden fighting itself and not the darkspawn. 

 

Loghain wasn't the only one who had poor judgement when it came to that. Teagan is equally guilty of having poor judgment as he felt resisting Loghain was more important than fighting the darkspawn. Along with all the other nobles who decided to fight each other. 

 

Loghain bears blame there, certainly, but I don't think it's fair to say he holds ALL of it. 

 

But why on earth did he poisoned Eamon?

Also, I don't think Tegan was trying to put himself on the throne, after all Anora was already the official Queen. I think the nobility had a problem only with Loghain and as far as I know he was only a duc (or something like that), so what's the problem if others nobles asks him to step away from the court after his failure at Ostagar?

[dragonflight288]

But why on earth did he poisoned Eamon?

Also, I don't think Tegan was trying to put himself on the throne, after all Anora was already the official Queen. I think the nobility had a problem only with Loghain and as far as I know he was only a duc (or something like that), so what's the problem if others nobles asks him to step away from the court after his failure at Ostagar?

 

Why he poisoned Eamon?

 

Here is a two page thread that discusses that very topic.

 

http://forum.bioware...n-poison-eamon/

 

It's fascinating reading. A post from Gaider on the subject, well a link to a blog he wrote about it, is also in that thread, along with the holes in it brought up by TEWR. 

[sylvanaerie]

*shrug* Fair enough, but recall that he did at least try to unite the bannorn to go back south and deal with the darkspawn, only they didn't want to, some questioning his judgement at Ostagar, some wanting to put themselves on the throne, and they gathered allies to fight him, so Loghain was forced to either bring them in line or try to unite under someone else's banner who wasn't his daughter, effectively deposing her. 

 

He chose to bring them in line then deal with the darkspawn, and the results was a civil war that kept Ferelden fighting itself and not the darkspawn. 

 

Loghain wasn't the only one who had poor judgement when it came to that. Teagan is equally guilty of having poor judgment as he felt resisting Loghain was more important than fighting the darkspawn. Along with all the other nobles who decided to fight each other. 

 

Loghain bears blame there, certainly, but I don't think it's fair to say he holds ALL of it. 

 

The Bannorn weren't calling for Anora to step down--only Loghain, who they felt was usurping the throne still warm from Cailan's butt.  (This was even the viewpoint expressed as far away as Lothering).  According to his Toolset notes on the character, usually Teagan won't make waves when it comes to politics, but he won't hesitate to speak out if he sees injustice (and let's face it, Loghain trying to unite the nobles under his undeniably failed banner was a bit much for the Teryn to expect).  He offers nothing of explanations for what's happened, saying only the lies that the wardens somehow conspired with the darkspawn to murder Cailan...Seriously, claims that NO one in the game believe except a couple of soldiers who can't pull their heads out of his ass long enough to look around them.  

 

No, Loghain wasn't the only one at fault here, but the lion's share I feel drops into his lap.  I believe some of that was also greedy nobles trying to grab at what they can in the power vacuum, but Teagan wasn't one of those.  I can't really fault Teagan seen from the viewpoint of a grieving uncle who's just lost a nephew he loved, possible a second who was a grey warden (he's the ONLY one in Redcliffe genuinely glad to see Alistair lived), a brother is 'ill' and has had to listen to weak and incomprehensible explanations (read: Lies) from Loghain as to what's happened.  And had Anora had the balls to stand up to her father, or Loghain realized he had no business trying to play at politics (something he fails at in epic proportion) things may have gone differently.  Had he stepped aside instead of inciting a civil war, Anora might have been able to ease the situation and take control.  She certainly proves competent enough after the Landsmeet to hold the nation together and get the blight dealt with.

 

Of course, had any of that happened, Origins would have been a much shorter game.

[Magdalena11]

Loghain looks dark and his features are very strong.  With armor on he looks bigger than a human PC, who is going to be in robes or light armor.

 

He still creeps me out in a cool way.

[dragonflight288]

The Bannorn weren't calling for Anora to step down--only Loghain, who they felt was usurping the throne still warm from Cailan's butt.  (This was even the viewpoint expressed as far away as Lothering).  According to his Toolset notes on the character, usually Teagan won't make waves when it comes to politics, but he won't hesitate to speak out if he sees injustice (and let's face it, Loghain trying to unite the nobles under his undeniably failed banner was a bit much for the Teryn to expect).  He offers nothing of explanations for what's happened, saying only the lies that the wardens somehow conspired with the darkspawn to murder Cailan...Seriously, claims that NO one in the game believe except a couple of soldiers who can't pull their heads out of his ass long enough to look around them.  

 

No, Loghain wasn't the only one at fault here, but the lion's share I feel drops into his lap.  I believe some of that was also greedy nobles trying to grab at what they can in the power vacuum, but Teagan wasn't one of those.  I can't really fault Teagan seen from the viewpoint of a grieving uncle who's just lost a nephew he loved, possible a second who was a grey warden (he's the ONLY one in Redcliffe genuinely glad to see Alistair lived), a brother is 'ill' and has had to listen to weak and incomprehensible explanations (read: Lies) from Loghain as to what's happened.  And had Anora had the balls to stand up to her father, or Loghain realized he had no business trying to play at politics (something he fails at in epic proportion) things may have gone differently.  Had he stepped aside instead of inciting a civil war, Anora might have been able to ease the situation and take control.  She certainly proves competent enough after the Landsmeet to hold the nation together and get the blight dealt with.

 

Of course, had any of that happened, Origins would have been a much shorter game.

 

Fair enough view. 

 

I don't think I've ever said Teagan was one of those nobles, but he IS an idealist. While that is an admirable trait, his comments in the landsmeet did spark a lot of discussion and probably helped create a motive for the more ambitious nobles who don't want to admit they're only in it for themselves.

 

And yes, Loghain was very abrupt and didn't offer a good explanation for what happened at Ostagar, and pretty much demanded they fall in line. Probably drove away a bit of support for doing that.

 

But let me ask this, if Loghain HAD stepped down as Reagent and the general, who then could be trusted to lead the armies of Ferelden? Anora? Teagan? Any of the banns or arls who wanted to take advantage of the power vacuum? Rendon Howe? 

 

If not Loghain at that particular time, who? 

 

On another note, Loghain makes an EXCELLENT antagonist. It's super easy to hate him. 

[the_last_krogan]

i hated loghain too much to be intimidated by him 

[sylvanaerie]

Fair enough view. 

 

I don't think I've ever said Teagan was one of those nobles, but he IS an idealist. While that is an admirable trait, his comments in the landsmeet did spark a lot of discussion and probably helped create a motive for the more ambitious nobles who don't want to admit they're only in it for themselves.

 

And yes, Loghain was very abrupt and didn't offer a good explanation for what happened at Ostagar, and pretty much demanded they fall in line. Probably drove away a bit of support for doing that.

 

But let me ask this, if Loghain HAD stepped down as Reagent and the general, who then could be trusted to lead the armies of Ferelden? Anora? Teagan? Any of the banns or arls who wanted to take advantage of the power vacuum? Rendon Howe? 

 

If not Loghain at that particular time, who? 

 

On another note, Loghain makes an EXCELLENT antagonist. It's super easy to hate him. 

 

Not step down as General.  Failed or not, without the wardens he was the best chance (from the layman's view) of dealing with the darkspawn.  They had no way of knowing how truly precarious things were with only 2 left alive.  I mean stepped down as regent.  IMO he had no business usurping the throne from Anora.  That Landsmeet would have gone a lot differently I think had he not tried to take control of the throne from his daughter.

 

And definitely agree on the excellent antagonist part.  Love him, hate him, he's easily the most complex character in the story.  

[dragonflight288]

Not step down as General.  Failed or not, without the wardens he was the best chance (from the layman's view) of dealing with the darkspawn.  They had no way of knowing how truly precarious things were with only 2 left alive.  I mean stepped down as regent.  IMO he had no business usurping the throne from Anora.  That Landsmeet would have gone a lot differently I think had he not tried to take control of the throne from his daughter.

 

And definitely agree on the excellent antagonist part.  Love him, hate him, he's easily the most complex character in the story.  

 

Hmm.

 

In my mind it's hard to say he usurped her throne in that Landsmeet when she's standing right behind him in support.