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Intimidated by Loghain?


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#76
dragonflight288

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Had Loghain united the bannorn under his command, he almost certainly would have used that vast army to eliminate imaginary threat of the last two Wardens. Without them to save the day, Ferelden would be wholly consumed by the Blight. (And whether they'd have an excuse to rescue Riordan is immaterial, IMO, since they wouldn't have any reason to go to Denerim at all, and many reasons to avoid the place.)

 

He wouldn't have concentrated an entire army on tracking the wardens down and killing them. He'd be focusing on the darkspawn.

 

Chances are he'd actually set aside a skilled strike team whose sole mission was to hunt down the wardens. And have standing orders that if anyone in the army sees them, to capture or kill them. But I don't think he would make it a priority for him to have his whole army scour Ferelden for Grey Wardens.



#77
Xilizhra

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I'm reasonably sure that Loghain considers the lives of elves less valuable than those of humans, otherwise he wouldn't have concentrated on the Alienage the way he did.

 

Also, he never should have declared himself Anora's regent; he should have stuck to the army and let Anora talk to the nobles.



#78
luna1124

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My first couple of plays, Loghain was a scary man to me.. maybe reminded me of one of my teachers or something..... I guess I don't like anyone yelling at me O_o



#79
dragonflight288

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I'm reasonably sure that Loghain considers the lives of elves less valuable than those of humans, otherwise he wouldn't have concentrated on the Alienage the way he did.

 

Also, he never should have declared himself Anora's regent; he should have stuck to the army and let Anora talk to the nobles.

 

Most humans consider elves less valuable than humans. 



#80
Xilizhra

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Most humans consider elves less valuable than humans. 

And most humans are assholes; I'll hardly deny that. Cailan, though, for one, didn't seem to fall into that category.



#81
dragonflight288

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And most humans are assholes; I'll hardly deny that. Cailan, though, for one, didn't seem to fall into that category.

 

True, but Cailan also didn't fall into the "intelligent" category either. 



#82
Xilizhra

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True, but Cailan also didn't fall into the "intelligent" category either. 

I don't think Cailan is as dumb as people paint him. Impulsive, certainly, and far from perfect, but I think he would have been a better king had Anora ever let him be anything but a figurehead. Being a beacon of glorious battle was practically all he could do in his position.



#83
dragonflight288

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I don't think Cailan is as dumb as people paint him. Impulsive, certainly, and far from perfect, but I think he would have been a better king had Anora ever let him be anything but a figurehead. Being a beacon of glorious battle was practically all he could do in his position.

 

If you start the Return to Ostagar DLC, his honor guard will tell you that Cailan knew the battle was lost and couldn't be won. He insisted on being on the battlefield's front line despite being warned repeatedly that it was too dangerous. 

 

And there was a lot more he could've done. He could've sat in with Loghain for the strategy formation to learn more battlefield tactics. He could've, as pretty much all kings of the time period in real life did, stay back and observe from a distance, giving orders as the situation changed and adapted. 

 

He just wanted his place in history, and he outright tells Duncan when we first arrive that he hoped for a war like in the tales. 



#84
TEWR

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So to put it simply, you are telling me that it would have been more difficult to call for a Landsmeet than to win the civil war? So the civil war was a better /quicker/ safer option? Given the choice, I thought that the nobles would have rather prefered to travel again to Denerim instead of sending their troups to die on a battlefield.

Also, Logain seemed quite eloquent during the Landsmeet in DAO, convincing the bannorn is not an easy task for the warden,every dialogue option must be chosen carefully and depending on Anora's support, the public's favor can be won by Logain.

 

More or less. What I'm saying is that by the time a Civil War erupted, without a leader for the Bannorn (Eamon or Bryce) in the field, calling a Landsmeet would have been pointless. Old grudges were brought to a head, as Ignacio tells you. The Bannorn are scattered, fighting just as much amongst themselves as they are against Loghain. If a Landsmeet was called (remember, it's an annual thing, and AFAIK there have never been multiple Landsmeets in a year) it would not have done much good because of how the Bannorn was acting.

 

I must reiterate that the Bannorn are the same people who in antiquity started a war over a tree. Over wool. They start wars over stupid ****.

 

The only way a Landsmeet would be successful after the war erupted is if there were a few things in play:

 

1) Anora being able to bring some to the fold.

2) Eamon/Teagan/Bryce (were the latter alive) working to help do that as well

3) The Warden being a capable military commander.

 

So long as Howe was alive, keeping Anora from doing much in the political sphere, and manipulating Loghain she wasn't able to do as much as she wanted to solve things peaceably. She tried to talk the Bannorn down, but she was in a precarious situation that limited her options, to say nothing of the systemic flaws inherent in Ferelden's government.

 

This is partially why the Landsmeet we're a part of works so well. We can manage to get all of these things while at the same time finding evidence against Loghain that ends up getting nobles to side against him (usually because it personally involved them). But from a logistical standpoint, we were probably there for a couple weeks in-universe (gameplay makes it seem shorter). And it only goes along so smoothly because of the chaos that has run rampant over the course of the game, allowing us to put a rather quick end to it.

 

It's more an anomaly then anything else if you ask me, not to be taken as how Landsmeets would typically work.

 

From a military standpoint, fighting the Banns was perhaps the best thing that could be done, because again... diplomacy once a full-blown war comes into play doesn't work. There's no guarantee that if Loghain had called for another Landsmeet that these rebel Banns would have even gone there. They might have feared for their lives or not trusted him. When Eamon called for it, they had a leader they could look to and were reasonably confident they wouldn't be put in danger.

 

Is it the safer option? I'd say so, maybe. Consider who Loghain is. He has the greater military under his authority and is the best general in Ferelden. The Bannorn have no leader and their martial might pales in comparison. I'd call it analogous to deterrence, if anything else. By going against them, part of the hope is that they'll not be so stupid to throw away their lives and the lives of valuable men all for the sake of honor in a battle they can't hope to win (indeed, Loghain ends up dominating the Civil War).

 

Sadly, the Bannorn were a bunch of short-sighted idiots.

 

Quicker though? Arguable. As I said, perhaps a few months of debate and politics is preferable to war, but I also cannot point out enough that had Loghain called another Landsmeet it wouldn't have worked because vital pieces that ensured success were not in play at that time.

 

I will say however that some of Loghain's actions only deepened the divide between the nobility and him. How much of this was due to Howe, I can't say.

 

Under those circumstances, even I'll concede he is likely to have prevailed. (And doomed Ferelden in the process.)

 

Perhaps, but Teagan would probably have sent an envoy in his place. There was a thing in one of the tabletop RPGs that said that in the absence of being able to make a trip themselves, nobility would sent either family or trusted commoners to vote in their place. Teagan would probably have sent someone (perhaps a knight) and had them mention how Eamon was deathly ill and, depending on when the Landsmeet was called, how it was the result of Jowan -- Loghain's agent -- and how he was in the dungeons of Redcliffe and he could give testimony to that fact.

 

To say nothing of Berwick.

 

Which might have just deepened the divide again and pointed to there being no real case to side with Loghain and we're back to square one.

 

Had Loghain united the bannorn under his command, he almost certainly would have used that vast army to eliminate the (imaginary) threat of the last two Wardens

 

Hardly. Wasting an entire army on two people who could be anywhere in the world would be an exercise in futility and would only serve to have the Bannorn question him. Loghain, for all his fears on the Wardens, did not send hundreds of soldiers out after the Wardens and it wouldn't be smart to go marching about the country doing that when you told the Bannorn you're going to fight the Darkspawn.

 

He left only one group of soldiers in Lothering with clear instructions the Warden was to be taken alive, while bounties were put up all across the nation. The people were going to do most of the fighting in that case because of the large amount of gold placed on them.

 

It's far more prudent to hire assassins to deal with such a thing. Which is, in fact, what Loghain does.



#85
Xandurpein

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It's amusing to come back to this forum after so long, and see Loghain the topic of the same arguments still. If nothing else, the passion and the arguments this character alone, ensure him a position as one of the most memorable video game villains. I think Loghain truly means well, but he has one glaring fault, he is absolutly convinced that he's the only one who can save the country. This conviction allows him to rationalise his step by step decent into the tyrant he becomes.

It's obvious that concern for his daughter influences him when he betrays Cailan, since he probably knows Cailan intends to divorce Anora, but I wonder if not that is also rationalizing his own fears of becoming redundant in Fereldan politics. In a way I think he's actually relieved when it's finally over, whether he dies or becomes a Warden. Somewhere he knows everything has gone horribly wrong, but he didn't know how to stop it.

I wasn't intimidated at the Landsmeet, but I knew he was a worthy foe. He needed to be stopped, as much for his own sake as for everyone else's.
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#86
TEWR

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Cailan's talk of ignorance on the true state of the Alienage always pissed me off. "I didn't know. My honor guards never let me go in there"

 

YOU'RE THE ****** KING YOU ASSWIPE.

 

They have to do what you tell them to do. His remark of "Well, I'll see what I can do about improving it after all is said and done here" is just infuriating. He's had five years since he was king and he never thought to go in there. Anora isn't able to see things firsthand because she was busy ruling a nation but she was still cognizant of how horrid the lives of Elves were.

 

 

 

Also, he never should have declared himself Anora's regent; he should have stuck to the army and let Anora talk to the nobles.

 

This much I cannot deny. Whatever his reasons for doing so, this was the wrong course of action. Though Anora was fine with it (from a political standpoint she had to be), one must note -- and the Bannorn rebelling against the Regency in turn is a rebellion against the crown and nothing short of treason.

 

Still, Loghain trying to "protect" Anora was the wrong call, as she's a big girl and can handle things herself. It's clear that he doesn't know her as well as many think, something he'll even point out. He knows she's a strong queen and leader, yet still feels she needs to be protected.

 

Daughters never grow up, Anora. They stay six years old with pigtails and skinned knees forever.

 

*tears up*

 

It's obvious that concern for his daughter influences him when he betrays Cailan, since he probably knows Cailan intends to divorce Anora

 

I'm going to put this as short as possible (and it's going to be rather curt because I always see these arguments): NO.

 

Take him to Ostagar. It's clear he didn't know Cailan was contemplating divorcing Anora.

 

And he did not "betray" Cailan. People who say that don't know the first thing about military strategy.



#87
Xandurpein

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If you start the Return to Ostagar DLC, his honor guard will tell you that Cailan knew the battle was lost and couldn't be won. He insisted on being on the battlefield's front line despite being warned repeatedly that it was too dangerous. 
 
And there was a lot more he could've done. He could've sat in with Loghain for the strategy formation to learn more battlefield tactics. He could've, as pretty much all kings of the time period in real life did, stay back and observe from a distance, giving orders as the situation changed and adapted. 
 
He just wanted his place in history, and he outright tells Duncan when we first arrive that he hoped for a war like in the tales.


I think Cailan grew up in the shadow of his father. If you read the Stolen Throne and the Calling, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Maric was totally irresponsible as king. He would time and again abandon his responsibilities, for a mad chase for personal glory, or private motives. No doubt Maric's own lack of responsibility and the stories of his adventures influence Cailan heavily. Cailan craved the same personal glory that his father had, and paid the price for it, because unlike with Maric, this time Loghain refused to pull him out of the fire.
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#88
sylvanaerie

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I get the feeling Cailan was struggling under the twin weights of both Loghain and Maric's legend.  Kind of hard to get out from under that boot and make your own mark on the world.  Add to it that Maric was a horrible parent to both his sons.  Loghain himself is no great poster boy for parent of the year either.

 

And Loghain epic failed at politics. He should have left it to his daughter to run the nation while he played general.  


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#89
Xandurpein

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I'm going to put this as short as possible (and it's going to be rather curt because I always see these arguments): NO.
 
Take him to Ostagar. It's clear he didn't know Cailan was contemplating divorcing Anora.
 
And he did not "betray" Cailan. People who say that don't know the first thing about military strategy.


Fair enough about the divorce, although, I think even if he didn't know about Cailan actually contemplating a divorce, things can't have been very cozy in their marriage if he was contemplating it. As for the military situation at Ostagar, I think there's simply not enough evidence to say if Loghain's army could have saved the day or not. And yes, I know quite a bit about military action myself. Everything I've seen points to the designers being intentionally vague about this. We're not meant to truly know, I think. I admit that this is confused by the fact that the game writers don't know that much about military action either.

#90
Xandurpein

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I get the feeling Cailan was struggling under the twin weights of both Loghain and Maric's legend.  Kind of hard to get out from under that boot and make your own mark on the world.  Add to it that Maric was a horrible parent to both his sons.  Loghain himself is no great poster boy for parent of the year either.
 
And Loghain epic failed at politics. He should have left it to his daughter to run the nation while he played general.


I agree. Anora in many ways has the same flaw as Loghain, she's convinced she's the only one who can run the country, but I think she's got a lot more to back that claim with than her father. She must have felt like the only voice of reason in a sea of chivalric testosterone.

#91
MWImexico

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...

 

This is partially why the Landsmeet we're a part of works so well. We can manage to get all of these things while at the same time finding evidence against Loghain that ends up getting nobles to side against him (usually because it personally involved them). But from a logistical standpoint, we were probably there for a couple weeks in-universe (gameplay makes it seem shorter). And it only goes along so smoothly because of the chaos that has run rampant over the course of the game, allowing us to put a rather quick end to it.

 

It's more an anomaly then anything else if you ask me, not to be taken as how Landsmeets would typically work.

 

....

 

... I don't understand your point here. Do you mean that the Landsmeet would have taken much more time in other circumstances? Why? Loghain doesn't need to gather proofs against the nobles to convince them, look at DAO, he didn't have to try very hard. Also he's the leader in charge of Ferelden, that means he's got full access to a lot of resources that could facilitate his inquiries, like hiring spy for exemple.

But I'll stop here, honestly I feel that we are wasting time by nitpicking on details. And we won't find a consensus, clearly.



#92
Xilizhra

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This much I cannot deny. Whatever his reasons for doing so, this was the wrong course of action. Though Anora was fine with it (from a political standpoint she had to be), one must note -- and the Bannorn rebelling against the Regency in turn is a rebellion against the crown and nothing short of treason.

 

Still, Loghain trying to "protect" Anora was the wrong call, as she's a big girl and can handle things herself. It's clear that he doesn't know her as well as many think, something he'll even point out. He knows she's a strong queen and leader, yet still feels she needs to be protected.

 

Daughters never grow up, Anora. They stay six years old with pigtails and skinned knees forever.

 

*tears up*

It's funny, but I've never seen that scene. If I want Loghain dead (which can be reasonably often, as Loghain can never reach Friendly and I like Alistair being there in the end better), I have Alistair duel him, at which point Loghain is killed immediately with no scene with Anora or Riordan. My Wardens, who are an elf mage and a Dalish, aren't really that interested in Fereldan politics and see the fight as rightfully Alistair's, both because he lost the most and because he's going to be king.



#93
MWImexico

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Fair enough about the divorce, ...

 

Yep, though I suppose that Loghain had reasons to believe that Cailan was close to the empress, maybe not to the point of knowing they where talking of a possible marriage but sufficiently to fear their political friendship. (Otherwise why would Loghain poisoned Eamon if it's not in the eventuality of getting rid of Cailan? )



#94
Lavaeolus

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Word of Gaider is that Loghain took him out of commission because he wanted to have a confrontation with the king, and Eamon would be on Cailan's side.

 

Note: as far as reasons for poisoning people go, doing it for an unknown vague "confrontation" is not one of the best. If you wish to call question to someone's antics, generally do not poison anyone.

David Gaider:

Yes, but this wasn't done in preparation for Ostagar. This was done in anticipation that Loghain and Cailan would have a showdown, and Arl Eamon would always solidly be in Cailan's camp. Like I said, Loghain is the sort of man that will ensure his enemies are defeated before they're engaged.


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#95
dragonflight288

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I remember that interview.



#96
MWImexico

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Word of Gaider is that Loghain took him out of commission because he wanted to have a confrontation with the king, and Eamon would be on Cailan's side.

 

Note: as far as reasons for poisoning people go, doing it for an unknown vague "confrontation" is not one of the best. If you wish to call question to someone's antics, generally do not poison anyone.

 

Thx for the info ;)

So maybe Loghain was still hoping that Cailan would change his mind about Orlais (before Ostagar). I guess he thought that it would be easier to convince Cailan if Eamon was out of the picture. But the poisoning thing seems indeed extreme, extreme enough to make me think that Loghain had serious worries concerning the reconciliation that occured between Cailan and Orlais/Celene (or he was simply paranoid and unluckily for him, he happened to be right).
Also, if I remember well, Anora says to the warden during a conversation before the Landsmeet that Cailan started to listen less to Loghain's advices, this too, combined to the rest, could have started Loghain's fears about the futur of Ferelden.



#97
Darkly Tranquil

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Word of Gaider is that Loghain took him out of commission because he wanted to have a confrontation with the king, and Eamon would be on Cailan's side.

 

 

Which strongly suggests that if he did not get the result he wanted (a cessation of all relations with Orlais) he would overthrow Cailan. Given what an ardent royalist Eamon is, removing him in advance strongly supports the conclusion that he was actively seeking to remove Cailan's supporters and isolate him in order to either force him to yield to Loghain's position, or to remove him permanently.

 

Someone suggested at some point that the conflict between Loghain and Cailan came about because Cailan stopped doing exactly what Loghain wanted him to and started to make independent decisions that Loghain didn't like, and this seems like a fairly likely explanation. Cailan speaks at he meeting at Ostagar about "our differences with Orlais are a thing of the past", which to, seems like it might have been the final straw for Loghain.

 

Its pretty clear that Loghain believed that only he knew what was best for Ferelden and that he would do whatever it took to protect his vision of "Ferelden independence" (read: Ferelden led my me according to my standards), even if it meant trampling Ferelden's system of government (the Landsmeet) into submission and becoming a tyrant little better than the one he fought to overthrow years before. It seems to me that Loghain very much embodies the "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain." line from The Dark Knight; he becomes a hero fighting for Ferelden independence, but in his paranoia to protect it, he ends up becoming the very thing he claimed to despise (a tyrant). Its this transition from hero to villain even with the best of intentions is what makes Loghain such a fascinating character. 


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#98
dragonflight288

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Not that it takes away condemnation of Loghain in any way, but word of Gaider in that same interview also said that Loghain's poison was not lethal, and was never meant to be. It was meant to put him in a coma like state, and he had the elf watching and reporting. Should his condition worsen Loghain would've sent an antidote immediately. 

 

The civil war, Connor getting possessed, Isolde sending all the Knights away, and so on made that course of action impossible. 



#99
MWImexico

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He caught a bad karma after playing with the health and lives of other people :)



#100
sylvanaerie

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Not that it takes away condemnation of Loghain in any way, but word of Gaider in that same interview also said that Loghain's poison was not lethal, and was never meant to be. It was meant to put him in a coma like state, and he had the elf watching and reporting. Should his condition worsen Loghain would've sent an antidote immediately. 

 

The civil war, Connor getting possessed, Isolde sending all the Knights away, and so on made that course of action impossible. 

 

Ian Malcolm would have had a field day with Loghain.   :lol:

 

In his arrogance, he thought he had it all under control, but that control was an illusion.