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Is the pricing of RPG holding the genre back?


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#1
Scouse

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Something i am a little curious about is if people are willing to pay £50-60 standard edition for these (albeit some are good) games that have a 20-30 hour competition time or multiplayer based games released every year, maybe a new pricing for a truly epically scoped RPG looking at the the ones we put 100's of hours into game could set us back £100 standard edition if it was allowed proper development (like 5 years including concepts obviously)

 

I can easily say i play bioware games (bar DAII which i only had about 60hrs) well over double or triple the amount that i play multiplayer games such as fifa,bf etc that are quick releases so it would justify the cost, which to EA might justify the added funding, as at the end of the day making a great game that sells millions and an epic game that sells millions that bring in roughly the same profit but one has 1-2 years development the other 3+ years, as a business which would you choose?

 

Forgot to add.... Inquisition is looking like a BioWare game of old in terms of quality, this post was about trying to maintain that kind of quality!


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#2
deuce985

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No? I don't see why it would. I've seen many games priced the same with only about 6 hours of gameplay and do fine commercially. MP games can add endless hours but I find I'll never put more than 50 hours into a competitive MP game personally. I find RPGs actually give you more bang for your buck than any other genre when it comes to content. That said, no game's price should be judged on the amount of content but rather on the quality of the game.


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#3
Enigmatick

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Something i am a little curious about is if people are willing to pay £50-60 standard edition for these (albeit some are good) games

Isn't that just EA being stupid about EU pricing or are there other RPGs doing this?



#4
Gamemako

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People have a really hard time evaluating return on investment when it isn't numerical. I'd imagine a 50% increase in content along with a 50% increase in cost would result in significantly reduced sales. Sadly, you really have to target the going AAA rate for games.
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#5
MarchWaltz

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I ALWAYS get bang for my buck with Bio games, since I play a **** ton of it.

 

I played DA2 the least because, well...LOL COPY AND PASTE DUNGEONS


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#6
Grieving Natashina

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No.  I've seen all sorts of games with much shorter length that have gone for the same price in the AAA market.  Sometimes at an even higher cost at that.


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#7
Deflagratio

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All games should be $1. Sure, the entire industry would collapse within a year, but it'd be a great year right? The nebulous concept of future potential and investment is overrated.


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#8
TanithAeyrs

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That is why I have no objection to paying for DLC.  It is a way for the developers to make more on their games and still compete in the market.  I thought about preordering the Inquisitor's edition of DAI just to throw more money at BIoware, but I really don't need more knickknacks to gather dust.  Would like the map though, if they ever make it available in the Bioware store I will buy it.  Have considered ordering a console edition as well as my PC edition - maybe hubby will play it.  But not sure if we are going to spend the money on a PS4 yet so I am holding off on that decision.  I am pathetic with a controller so I will stick to my PC games.

 

Anyway, to sum up a long post, I would pay more but I'm not sure all gamers would.  Thus, we should support the companies that make excellent RPG's with our dollars (for both games and DLC) and by word of mouth advertising.  That is how we help ensure the games have enough support to justify they expense of developing them. 


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#9
Fast Jimmy

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The problem with RPGs are not the price, but the design.

Having cinematic scenes with fully voiced characters and flashy combat animations hikes the cost of development more than any other cost in gaming... except maybe marketing.

Either way, I think a simpler design focus could result in epically more content and divergent pathways to the story. But such things are not what the masses want, so no bigger developer will go this route. But smaller scale projects, with a hundred thousand sales being a success instead of millions, can create games that are truly masterpieces, even if they do not sell as well.
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#10
St. Victorious

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I'm not sure I understand the point of this. This is a game wide issue, is it not? Why would it be limited to just RPGs?

There's a bit of EA gripe here that just seems to be bitter ranting. Yes, they're the Evil Alliance and we(generalized) hate them. Lets move past that now.

#11
Lucky Thirteen

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Hundreds of hours in a RPG is more worth that $60 price tag. The other games with their puny 20-30 hour play time need to drop their prices. 



#12
Deflagratio

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The problem with RPGs are not the price, but the design.

Having cinematic scenes with fully voiced characters and flashy combat animations hikes the cost of development more than any other cost in gaming... except maybe marketing.

Either way, I think a simpler design focus could result in epically more content and divergent pathways to the story. But such things are not what the masses want, so no bigger developer will go this route. But smaller scale projects, with a hundred thousand sales being a success instead of millions, can create games that are truly masterpieces, even if they do not sell as well.

 

 

There are some things you can do with a human voice that you can't do with commas, question marks and exclamation points.(Bolded)

 

Animations are actually one of the cheapest parts on their own, though they're a segment of the larger "Fidelity" category which does have enormous costs associated with it. (Underlined)

 

This I'm not sure of, Bioware has their unique cutscene thing, and the game budgets aren't really a matter of public record (that I know of) so there's no way to see what kind of chunk that actually takes out of the budget. (Italics)

 

 

In closing, High Production values are expensive, but you curiously left out the most obvious cost bloater, the rising bar of visual fidelity. I think maybe you're just underhandedly playing up a particular type of game. Unfortunately for game developers, the tools that efficiently exploit the hardware result of Moore's law lag well behind the curve said law makes. So taking advantage of the latest technology is phenomenally expensive. Probably has something to do with why the Xbox360/PS3 stuck around so long but that's just supposition on my part.


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#13
wtfman99

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I don't mine paying $60 for a game if I get good use out of it.

#14
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OP - 

 

Y7gtLG0.jpg


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#15
metatheurgist

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The thing that's holding back RPGs is the pressure to turn them into action games. I'd happily pay more for actual RPG mechanics. I'd even pay for turn based, anything would be better than more identical action mechanic clones.
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#16
Fast Jimmy

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There are some things you can do with a human voice that you can't do with commas, question marks and exclamation points.(Bolded)

Animations are actually one of the cheapest parts on their own, though they're a segment of the larger "Fidelity" category which does have enormous costs associated with it. (Underlined)

This I'm not sure of, Bioware has their unique cutscene thing, and the game budgets aren't really a matter of public record (that I know of) so there's no way to see what kind of chunk that actually takes out of the budget. (Italics)


In closing, High Production values are expensive, but you curiously left out the most obvious cost bloater, the rising bar of visual fidelity. I think maybe you're just underhandedly playing up a particular type of game. Unfortunately for game developers, the tools that efficiently exploit the hardware result of Moore's law lag well behind the curve said law makes. So taking advantage of the latest technology is phenomenally expensive. Probably has something to do with why the Xbox360/PS3 stuck around so long but that's just supposition on my part.

That's all fair - I stated "animations" more simply when I was really referencing overall graphical fidelity, camera tracking and 3-D features in general.

And a voiced character can be more dynamic, true... but you lose so much with it. Not just in terms of flexibility, but in volume - Bioware has come out and stated they could never make BG2 again today, simply because the amount of dialogue would be impossible to record without ballooning the entire budget. When BG2, a game which was voted the greatest game of all time by other developers, can't be made any longer due to design choices, then the design choices should be SERIOUSLY evaluated.
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#17
Schreckstoff

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You don't want to make RPGs an even bigger risk for publishers.



#18
Zu Long

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Something i am a little curious about is if people are willing to pay £50-60 standard edition for these (albeit some are good) games that have a 20-30 hour competition time or multiplayer based games released every year, maybe a new pricing for a truly epically scoped RPG looking at the the ones we put 100's of hours into game could set us back £100 standard edition if it was allowed proper development (like 5 years including concepts obviously)

 

I can easily say i play bioware games (bar DAII which i only had about 60hrs) well over double or triple the amount that i play multiplayer games such as fifa,bf etc that are quick releases so it would justify the cost, which to EA might justify the added funding, as at the end of the day making a great game that sells millions and an epic game that sells millions that bring in roughly the same profit but one has 1-2 years development the other 3+ years, as a business which would you choose?

 

Forgot to add.... Inquisition is looking like a BioWare game of old in terms of quality, this post was about trying to maintain that kind of quality!

 

I've actually wondered about this as well, if increasing the cost of quality games like Dragon Age will be the only way to keep them profitable enough for companies to keep making them. Look at Valve, who basically decided it wasn't worth making Half-Life 3 when games like TF2 are a license to print money and cost less to develop.

 

Then again, comedy movies that only cost $10 million go up against Sci-Fi blockbusters with $100 million budgets all the time, and people are still making $100 million sci-fi blockbusters. I guess as long as there's a decent market, people will keep making them, but I do believe it is something worth thinking about. I know I always buy the special editions at full price for Bioware games in part because I want them to keep making Bioware games. It's also why I still subscribe to SWTOR.



#19
Fast Jimmy

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You don't want to make RPGs an even bigger risk for publishers.


You're thinking about it backwards - by greatly reducing their costs, they can risk far less to get reasonable returns.

It's the unrealistic expectations of always "betting the house" to win big that is the reason the industry has become risky. The fact that Kickstarters have games where people are throwing money at developers to make certain games should be seen as an indicator that some gamers feel completely and totally neglected by the current care of RPGs and the inability to tell most them apart from action games.

The size of this market and the number of players willing to pay for these Kickstarter games has yet to be totally proven, but the releases that have come out to date have given strong evidence to the idea that there are a good amount of players showing up for these niche markets and that the games being produced with today's technology and yesterday's design principles are, all in all, not as devastating unpopular as developers and publishers would have many believe.
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#20
In Exile

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That's all fair - I stated "animations" more simply when I was really referencing overall graphical fidelity, camera tracking and 3-D features in general.

And a voiced character can be more dynamic, true... but you lose so much with it. Not just in terms of flexibility, but in volume - Bioware has come out and stated they could never make BG2 again today, simply because the amount of dialogue would be impossible to record without ballooning the entire budget. When BG2, a game which was voted the greatest game of all time by other developers, can't be made any longer due to design choices, then the design choices should be SERIOUSLY evaluated.

 

That's not what anyone at Bioware ever said. BG2 is absolutely in their "never again" box in terms of sheer content even if they were re-creating it on the Infinity Engine, because of the amount of content they crammed into that game in an insanely short period of development time. 

 

edit: cut out a paragraph because I misunderstood part of your post. 

 

I will say, however, that BG2 is incredibly overrated. Whatever love some developers have for it, I have a hard time seeing anything in BG that's uniquely outstanding today. It was a masterpiece compared to what was available in comparison - gameplay wise it was much better than Planescape, and story wise it was better than the hive-mind D&D simulators in IWD, but that's all it had as competition.



#21
Scouse

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No? I don't see why it would. I've seen many games priced the same with only about 6 hours of gameplay and do fine commercially. MP games can add endless hours but I find I'll never put more than 50 hours into a competitive MP game personally. I find RPGs actually give you more bang for you buck than any other genre when it comes to content. That said, no game's price should be judged on the amount of content but rather the quality of the game.

I agree to some extent, however content does require labour. So the point I'm making is there needs to be an incentive for publishers to fund greater quality content as going from a great game to one of the best will not get many extra copies bought (as great games sell really really well)
 

Isn't that just EA being stupid about EU pricing or are there other RPGs doing this?

Typical next gen price for consoles in UK regardless of RPG, Sports, Simulator, etc you could take off £10-20 for a PC version though.

People have a really hard time evaluating return on investment when it isn't numerical. I'd imagine a 50% increase in content along with a 50% increase in cost would result in significantly reduced sales. Sadly, you really have to target the going AAA rate for games.

This I 100% agree with which is a shame as in order to make a long winded RPG a lot more staff are required to make all the content. I admire any company like BioWare who try to provide both story content and lore as well as gameplay and high graphics cutscenes etc. As they could easily sacrifice some of this and still sell well and make more profit. While the gaming industry is still growing i think? there may come a time when it gets hit or goes through a rough patch and these bonuses may be sacrificed. So i wish people would realise just how much value you get.
 

That is why I have no objection to paying for DLC.  It is a way for the developers to make more on their games and still compete in the market.  I thought about preordering the Inquisitor's edition of DAI just to throw more money at BIoware, but I really don't need more knickknacks to gather dust.  Would like the map though, if they ever make it available in the Bioware store I will buy it.  Have considered ordering a console edition as well as my PC edition - maybe hubby will play it.  But not sure if we are going to spend the money on a PS4 yet so I am holding off on that decision.  I am pathetic with a controller so I will stick to my PC games.
 
Anyway, to sum up a long post, I would pay more but I'm not sure all gamers would.  Thus, we should support the companies that make excellent RPG's with our dollars (for both games and DLC) and by word of mouth advertising.  That is how we help ensure the games have enough support to justify they expense of developing them.

 
I am the same, I've bought all the dlc for games i believe to provide more content (not just quests/missions etc but also solid graphics story etc) when i've only been interested in maybe one or two of the dlc because i believe the base game on it's own is worth a lot more.

The problem with RPGs are not the price, but the design.

Having cinematic scenes with fully voiced characters and flashy combat animations hikes the cost of development more than any other cost in gaming... except maybe marketing.

Either way, I think a simpler design focus could result in epically more content and divergent pathways to the story. But such things are not what the masses want, so no bigger developer will go this route. But smaller scale projects, with a hundred thousand sales being a success instead of millions, can create games that are truly masterpieces, even if they do not sell as well.

Ah see I find it much easier to immerse myself when the graphics are of high quality and the passion the developers/writers can put forward in cutscenes is overwhelming sometimes, Mass Effects leaving earth in ME3 begining was one of my favourite. So this is kind of my point. Current RPG Developers are producing up to 100 hours of unique content including cutscenes graphics story gameplay etc and charging the same price that the majority of games today only provide some of and lack others. I see a higher price tag of as a way of acknowledging how much effort goes into these games and how much they provide. Elderscrolls has always had a few but it really lacks the emotion or strong story which i'd assume is because it uses up a lot of development time and costs a lot of money.
 

I'm not sure I understand the point of this. This is a game wide issue, is it not? Why would it be limited to just RPGs?

There's a bit of EA gripe here that just seems to be bitter ranting. Yes, they're the Evil Alliance and we(generalized) hate them. Lets move past that now.

It is only really RPG that provide the overwhelming content. Most games focus on either gameplay, artwork, multiplayer, cinematics or try to compensate having a lot of it but then make a game half the length or lack of variety. I don't think EA is evil they are a business and will seek out profit obviously, but they've done right this time as the amount of time and resources that must of been put into to DA:I to get it looking that good with a lot more exploration and i'd assume as it is bioware with a really engaging story and being built from the ground up on a new engine is very impressive credit to BioWare too they must have worked their socks off on this! Should this effort not be rewarded when other companies don't put that much effort in? This is my point.
 

Hundreds of hours in a RPG is more worth that $60 price tag. The other games with their puny 20-30 hour play time need to drop their prices.

It isnt always about the hours i may have not explained that properly. A game full of quality content but only 20-30hours such as Watch Dogs is to me worth it's price tag, but if i compare that content to what i get in say a bethesda product it dwarfs it but costs the same, bethesda is then outdone by bioware in terms of how much original content is in the game.  Both imo are high quality bethesda is just let down on emotional story content but that is not their focus.
 
@spirosz Pokémon certainly provides the hours of play time sure, but due to the low graphics and basic gameplay its costs and staff numbers would be considerably lower. Ergo its production costs would be considerably lower there should be a huge difference in prices to reflect this.
 
metatheurgist, on 14 Jul 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

The thing that's holding back RPGs is the pressure to turn them into action games. I'd happily pay more for actual RPG mechanics. I'd even pay for turn based, anything would be better than more identical action mechanic clones.

I was a big fan of turn based too, or a merger of the two, i liked KOTOR approach best as it tried making out it wasn't turn based but it was :) however i would not say that is a core RPG mechanic.To me RPG means the ability to role play as someone else in a situation you may never face in real life. Which is why i rate BioWare so highly, the lore and story in their games is matched by very very few. No matter what gameplay they throw at me i always find it easy to accept it and role with it, though i am happy the combat is slowed down from DAII super fast arcade style. But even then it was no biggy. And it is that lore and story content, along with the graphics to make it more immersive that i believe justifies a higher price tag


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#22
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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You're thinking about it backwards - by greatly reducing their costs, they can risk far less to get reasonable returns.

It's the unrealistic expectations of always "betting the house" to win big that is the reason the industry has become risky. The fact that Kickstarters have games where people are throwing money at developers to make certain games should be seen as an indicator that some gamers feel completely and totally neglected by the current care of RPGs and the inability to tell most them apart from action games.

The size of this market and the number of players willing to pay for these Kickstarter games has yet to be totally proven, but the releases that have come out to date have given strong evidence to the idea that there are a good amount of players showing up for these niche markets and that the games being produced with today's technology and yesterday's design principles are, all in all, not as devastating unpopular as developers and publishers would have many believe.

 

To be obtusely logical, this thread is about increasing the cost of RPGs, which does not reduce their costs, and does increase their risks.

 

He may have been responding to the first post, not necessarily yours.



#23
In Exile

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You're thinking about it backwards - by greatly reducing their costs, they can risk far less to get reasonable returns.

It's the unrealistic expectations of always "betting the house" to win big that is the reason the industry has become risky. The fact that Kickstarters have games where people are throwing money at developers to make certain games should be seen as an indicator that some gamers feel completely and totally neglected by the current care of RPGs and the inability to tell most them apart from action games.

The size of this market and the number of players willing to pay for these Kickstarter games has yet to be totally proven, but the releases that have come out to date have given strong evidence to the idea that there are a good amount of players showing up for these niche markets and that the games being produced with today's technology and yesterday's design principles are, all in all, not as devastating unpopular as developers and publishers would have many believe.

People greatly overrate the success of Kickstarter games. Most games raised a pittance. The only studio that raised anything worthwhile has been Obsidian and other Black Isle legacy staff, largely on the reputation of their AAA development (and particular their AAA Isometric development). Unknown indie developers haven't been able to gather very much of anything, because trust is a huge currency in the Kickstarter market that just doesn't exist w/o established names.

 

Secondly, the games haven't actually raised that much. Wasteland raised under 3 million. Torment raised 4.1 million. PE raised 4.5 million. At modern AAA pricing of $60 a pop, that's 75,000 sales for PE. If we assume the older $40 for a PC game (without factoring in inflation), that would be 112,500 units. 

 

And we don't know if the market is capped out. Even AAA flops more than quadruple what these legendary Kickstarter games pulled in. Until these games are released and we see what else they bring in market-wise, it's hard to say there's any substantial market for them at all. \

 

For all we know, anyone who's really ever going to get a copy of PE already got a copy of it. 



#24
Bayonet Hipshot

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NOPE.

 

RPGs  have a lot of replay value, story, followers,  builds & setups, role-playing opportunities, power-gaming opportunities.

 

For that amount of substance you have to pay a certain premium for it. Which is totally fine by me. 

 

I mean if people don't like the high price, wait for a year, the price will drop and get the game or wait until the GoTY edition comes out, get the game and all the DLCs in one go. 

 

Cheers.  :)



#25
Brass_Buckles

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Something i am a little curious about is if people are willing to pay £50-60 standard edition for these (albeit some are good) games that have a 20-30 hour competition time or multiplayer based games released every year, maybe a new pricing for a truly epically scoped RPG looking at the the ones we put 100's of hours into game could set us back £100 standard edition if it was allowed proper development (like 5 years including concepts obviously)

 

I can easily say i play bioware games (bar DAII which i only had about 60hrs) well over double or triple the amount that i play multiplayer games such as fifa,bf etc that are quick releases so it would justify the cost, which to EA might justify the added funding, as at the end of the day making a great game that sells millions and an epic game that sells millions that bring in roughly the same profit but one has 1-2 years development the other 3+ years, as a business which would you choose?

 

Forgot to add.... Inquisition is looking like a BioWare game of old in terms of quality, this post was about trying to maintain that kind of quality!

 

I get what you're saying, that in order to make better quality, longer RPGs, prices should reasonably be higher.  Unfortunately, if the pricing got any higher, I'd have to stop buying RPGs.  I already think it's a bit too steep to buy the regular edition of many games.  Most of the time, with the exception of games like DA:I that I just HAVE to have (not really, to be honest but I'm excited enough to majorly splurge), I buy them on sale.

 

Not to disparage the idea, because I think you have a good point... but there's also the fact that not every person has a huge gaming budget, and the higher the price goes, the fewer games they can buy.  If you've got two major games coming out at the same time, and both are priced at, say $120, you're probably only going to get one of them.  Or you might pass both by, and wait for a sale--which will cost the company money.  Would people still buy the games, though?  Sure they would.  Plenty of people would preorder.  But people like myself would probably have to find a new hobby, or resort to cheaper, lower production value indie and mobile games, or simply stop gaming because it would be too expensive.  In itself, that might not be the worst thing in the world, but I don't like the idea of making it even harder to afford games than it already is.  Edited to add:  It would also hurt companies because sales would decrease for those of us who simply cannot afford something that expensive in our gaming budgets.

 

It's my opinion that the RPGs are priced fine, for now, but the shorter games are overpriced.  Just finished The Wolf Among Us, and while I greatly enjoyed the game, I'm glad I bought it on sale rather than paying full price, because it is short and I don't feel I'd have gotten my value-per-hour out of it if I'd paid the full price.