579 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

This is me asking the fanbase for feedback.  Note that discussion about the tropes themselves is okay, but I'd really prefer to keep this on topic and will likely remove off topic stuff.  Especially if it's going to turn into a relatively heated disagreement.

 

July 15th, Thread reopened

 

Some things to please keep in mind to help me out for this.

• If you want to reply to a post I make, please check back on the thread if I am responding to someone.  I'm usually trying to respond to a specific trope to better understand it and if the conversation gets sidetracked, I am not sure if it's a new trope or an extension/clarification of an existing one.  It's also led to confusion because I make this assumption, and people will question some things I may say because it's no longer within the context of the conversation chain.
• If a post someone makes reminds you of a trope, please make a new post to detail out the trope and try to describe it.  Assume I'm daft and may not know specifically what a colloquial term is referring to.  There's a good chance I am daft.

 

 

 

This spawned from some people having issues that we seem to fall into patterns of things like "queer female rogue" and whatnot.  I'm curious what others can come up with.  Please try to provide an explanation or some sort of context, because I'm very blind to a lot of this and I'd appreciate explanations (or links) to better understand.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Note: I'd prefer this to not be a general "what I would like to see improved with romances" but the focus to be "You often/always use the same pattern to depict this particular romance type."

 

 

The list so far (this is all manifested out of the thread so if you're curious how it got added, please check out the thread.  You can use the search function in the upper right to search this particular topic).

• If you're not straight, you're a Rogue
• If your devout, chivalric/virtuous, or knightly/heroic, you're straight.
• Bisexuals seem to have female preference
• Gay and bisexual people have dark backgrounds, that comes across as feeling like that is why they are not straight
• Bisexuals are promiscuous
• Carth Syndrome (and the fact that Women typically do not have a past relationship)
• Lesbian/Gay Tragedy
• People with dark/damaged pasts tend to be LI, and by being a LI they are "healed" (and rarely by friendship)
• Forcing LIs to "change for their own good" (Possibly related to "healing" trope)
• Men LI aren't intellectuals
• More virgin romances/LI always interested in sex before marriage
• Perceived "leading" characters are straight. 
• If a character is "unkillable" they tend to be a straight LI and not an LGBT LI
• Cunning/Manipulative LIs are typically women (Morrigan, Isabela, Miranda)
• LI are often only seen as LGBT if they're in the active romance with the player
• Women have narrower standards of beauty

[Natashina]

I've got one: So far, every lesbian relationship prominently featured in the DA games/EU has ended in tragedy.  Branka and Hespith; Leliana and Majorline; Celene and Briala.  I'm not sure if there is a specific trope name for that (although Hespith could be considered a case of Bury Your Gays,) but that's something that's getting a little painful.

[Mes]

Ooh how interesting!

 

One trope that bothers me a little bit is the "doomed lover" and/or "still in love with the previous girlfriend guy" that I feel straight female protagonists get quite often. Mind you I can't off the top of my head think of examples from Dragon Age (the ones in my head are from Mass Effect), but I feel that if Blackwall were a LI, he would fall into at least one of those quite easily. 

[LPPrince]

Bisexual/Pansexual Rogues

 

The "damaged and in need of fixing/helping" type(not necessarily physically, more mentally, spiritually, psychologically, or a combination of the latter three)

[Natashina]

Bisexual/Pansexual Rogues

 

The "damaged" type(not necessarily physically, more mentally, spiritually, psychologically, or a combination of the latter three)

That was another one I was going to bring up after I had dinner.  That's one that really tired, widespread across a lot of media and really damaging to the LGBT community, bisexuals in particular.

[Ryzaki]

Ooh how interesting!

 

One trope that bothers me a little bit is the "doomed lover" and/or "still in love with the previous girlfriend guy" that I feel straight female protagonists get quite often. Mind you I can't off the top of my head think of examples from Dragon Age (the ones in my head are from Mass Effect), but I feel that if Blackwall were a LI, he would fall into at least one of those quite easily. 

 

Agreed.

 

Bw's thankfully gotten so much better about Carth Syndrome still *eyes dart around*. 

 

And yeah no doomed romances please. I mean...give those to the female companions for once.

[Allan Schumacher]

Bisexual/Pansexual Rogues

 

The "damaged" type(not necessarily physically, more mentally, spiritually, psychologically, or a combination of the latter three)

 

Can you elaborate a bit more?  I can see how Zevran would fit, and possibly Isabela as well (I know her past has some issues too).

[TheLastSuperSaiyan87]

Well I do in early yuri manga most lesbian relationships did end tragically so thats actually a common theme in lesbian fiction, though more recent ones end more happy. I am fine with lesbian rogues since I loved both Leliana and Isabela and I will love Sera. Only thing I would like more of is a more interactive romance, like it would be great if in Inquisition if you could invite your love interest to move into your room with you. I would like the romance to not be almost ignored by the party, in the past all we have gotten is some banter and maybe a a couple of scenes like Varric asking Hawke about their relationship. I guess what I'm saying is a romance that goes farther than just sex and then thats all there is to it.  

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Promiscuity being tied to trust issues, an ability to commit, a history of past abusive relationships or sexual abuse. I really don't like this set up for relationships. It gives the impression that people can't just like sex, it has to be tied back to an emotional flaw. Jack is a perfect example of this, but Isabela and Zevran also fit the bill. It doesn't help that they're also implied bisexual.. even Jack.. who wasn't available to women. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Well I do in early yuri manga most lesbian relationships did end tragically so thats actually a common theme in lesbian fiction, though more recent ones end more happy. I am fine with lesbian rogues since I loved both Leliana and Isabela and I will love Sera. Only thing I would like more of is a more interactive romance, like it would be great if in Inquisition if you could invite your love interest to move into your room with you. I would like the romance to not be almost ignored by the party, in the past all we have gotten is some banter and maybe a a couple of scenes like Varric asking Hawke about their relationship. I guess what I'm saying is a romance that goes farther than just sex and then thats all there is to it.  

 

That's fair, though I actually want to keep this from a general "how do we improve romances in general" type of thread.  Your feedback isn't bad by any means, but unless I'm misreading something I may have not been as clear as I would have liked in the OP?  I'm going to change the thread title to tropes/archetypes though.

 

Or is there a trope here that I'm not seeing?  (is it a trope that romance content doesn't go far enough?  Or is that a symptom of the game's narrative seeing romances as more ancillary to the main plot, and inherently optional?)

[SilkieBantam]

The LI that the player has to "fix".

 

Basically it's the LI that has suffered some sort of deep trauma that makes them fear love, or fear that they'll only hurt the player and only through the power of luuuurve can the player restore their confidence and heal their wounded heart. Mostly male LI's have fallen under this trope in my experience and it can be done well but...sometimes it's fun to have an LI without a lot of baggage. 

[metalfenix]

One that bothers me, but fortunately been corrected on inquisition.

 

On every dragon age so far (not counting inquisition) the only option for us gays, was an elven rogue/fighter, with a questionable past, some kind of trauma. Not even remotely a sane or human Li . I know that Bioware tried with anders (who was an human mage) on DA II, but he ended as a crazy abomination/terrorist, definitely not someone to have a life together.

 

Fortunately, the options on Inquisition seems to be alright, with Dorian or Iron Bull, so congrats to you guys (just hoping to get blackwall as Li too lol. had to say it)

[Natashina]

Can you elaborate a bit more?  I can see how Zevran would fit, and possibly Isabela as well (I know her past has some issues too).

I'd throw Anders into that type of category, with the Justice merger.  He's not just bisexual, but also an abomination with a spirit being slowly corrupted inside of his mind which eventually leads to him blowing up a church and starting a war.  That's where I think he fits in with the "deranged" part.

[LPPrince]

Can you elaborate a bit more?  I can see how Zevran would fit, and possibly Isabela as well (I know her past has some issues too).

 

Derp, you meant the damaged type. I fix.

 

Edit- Characters with moral dilemmas, dark pasts, negative thoughts in their mind that keep them in the dumps or drag with them into the present.

 

Basically, imagine hypothetically meeting someone interesting, except he/she says, "My daddy didn't love me, my mom wasn't around, etc etc"

 

Well that sucks, and I want to help that person move on and have a better disposition and a happier personality.

 

But- too often, games have romantic partners with these types of backgrounds, because its easy to help someone with their problems and then find a romantic connection with them.

[Natashina]

I thought you said Deranged, but I think it still applies to Anders.   

[Ryzaki]

Something else that bothers me the PC almost always is the one giving the LI the support and talking about the LI's problems. When the PC's own issues are brought up it's merely to prop up the LI's issues even more in comparison and looks less like the LI is taking an interest in your life and more that they're having a comparison contest. It also really doesn't help that it's usually like 2 lines and they pretty much go back to their problems. (even when said problems aren't as major).

 

This was particularly painful during the whole "My whole family died recently" conversation in origins. Can I get an LI that actually cares about my PCs trauma and doesn't try to end the conversation as quickly as possible after it's brought up? Meanwhile droning on and on about theirs?

 

I mean...WYNNE asked my PC more about her feelings about her past more than Alistair did. That's ridiculous.

 

Edit:

 

Oops uh...I guess this could be both a improvement wish and something I tend to see that bothers me? The relationship is very unbalanced to me in the DA settings most of the time. The PC feels like a therapist.

[TheLastSuperSaiyan87]

How would a LI that has no problems work? I mean really in most love interests thats the base for their companion quest is to help them fix what happend in the past and in turn they fall in love with you.

[Allan Schumacher]

I'd throw Anders into that type of category, with the Justice merger.  He's not just bisexual, but also an abomination with a spirit being slowly corrupted inside of his mind which eventually leads to him blowing up a church and starting a war.  That's where I think he fits in with the "deranged" part.

 

Anders definitely has issues, though he wouldn't fit the classification of "Bisexual/Pansexual rogue that is damaged" that was put forward.

 

Do you think the trope should be more encompassing?

[BabyFratelli]

It's never bothered me, but virtuous (Can a templar type exist without being virtuous, though?) straight guy is becoming a bit of a theme in DA particularly. Not that we know anything about Cullens... exploits, beyond seeing him embarrassed by prostitutes and nervous around Amell. I can see why it might bother some simply for variety's sake, and then there also could be some implications that straight men are stuttering virgins, or that virtuousness = straight.

 

Scorned by ex-lover is another common one. Can't these people have emotionally mature relationships and break ups without trying to kill or destroy one another? (For me, this can be simply explained in media as 'there to create more drama', which isn't necessarily a bad reason for something to happen. Still a trope though.)

[Natashina]

I think it's more about mutual support.  We expect the LIs to have some sort of issues.  We just hope that they'll listen to the PC more, rather than some other previous times.  

 

PC: "My whole family was killed violently."

Ali: "Sorry to hear that.  I know what you mean.  Duncan..."

 

Then nothing for the rest of the game.  That sort of thing isn't great imho, especially for the romances.

[TheLastSuperSaiyan87]

 

 

This was particularly painful during the whole "My whole family died recently" conversation in origins. Can I get an LI that actually cares about my PCs trauma and doesn't try to end the conversation as quickly as possible after it's brought up? Meanwhile droning on and on about theirs?

 

 

Yes now I agree with this, I understand our character is the hero of the game but they are still a living and breathing person with feelings and their own problems but no one ever seems to want to help them. When Hawke lost their mother in DA 2 it seemed like none of the love interests were really helpful in making them feel better.

[Battlebloodmage]

So far, Dorian seems to be portrayed as flamboyant, and many people already depicted him as a fashionista fixing Cullen's hair, also a gay best friend for Vivienne. For the first gay companion, I would rather have a more heteronormative guy like Alistair or Kaidan. People seem to tie Dorian's orientation with his teacher. If he were a girl instead, no one would suggest that there must have been something happen between Dorian and his teacher. It's like being gay must have been caused by some sexual abuse. I find it interesting that all the royal and religious people are leaning toward straight. The ranks that people consider or look up to as "moral" are often taking very hetereonormative role. Lelianna is the only exception, but then she's a bard and a spy.

[Ailith Tycane]

Can you elaborate a bit more?  I can see how Zevran would fit, and possibly Isabela as well (I know her past has some issues too).

 

Carth comes to mind. 

 

Also something else I can think of, although I'm not sure if it falls under being a trope, but I might as well say it here since devs are potentially listening. I wish you guys would make the seemingly "obvious" gay female LI's (from a completely stereotypical perspective) or companions actually gay instead of seemingly going out of your way to make them straight.

 

Aveline is one example, except she wasn't a romance for anyone. Jack is another example, and she even tells you she has had sexual relationships with women in the past, and yet is only available to men. Cassandra is the most recent example.

 

Don't wanna start an argument here about gay female stereotypes and also don't want to speculate on why this keeps happening in your games, but it's certainly something I would enjoy being changed in the future, even though I understand I am a small minority .

[Allan Schumacher]

How would a LI that has no problems work? I mean really in most love interests thats the base for their companion quest is to help them fix what happend in the past and in turn they fall in love with you.

 

This may be my bias wording this:  Are you referring basically to a romance that is "two people end up falling in love and it is awesome?"  I know that's not phrased amazingly, but there may be some preclusion towards content (romance or otherwise) that doesn't have conflict.

 

Or is there something more here?  Perhaps the conflict is something else?

[Ryzaki]

I think it's more about mutual support.  We expect the LIs to have some sort of issues.  We just hope that they'll listen to the PC more, rather than some other previous times.  

 

PC: "My whole family was killed violently."

Ali: "Sorry to hear that.  I know what you mean.  Duncan..."

 

Then nothing for the rest of the game.  That sort of thing isn't great imho, especially for the romances.

 

Exactly. Wynne offers more emotional support than the LI. *shakes head*

 

 

Yes now I agree with this, I understand our character is the hero of the game but they are still a living and breathing person with feelings and their own problems but no one ever seems to want to help them. When Hawke lost their mother in DA 2 it seemed like none of the love interests were really helpful in making them feel better.

 

I gave the DA2 LIs a gold star for trying through. Even if they didn't succeed they tried DAO LIs didn't even do that much.

 

Heck even in the Urn of Sacred ashes you get a generic "don't blame yourself" line from Alistair (and then nothing when you see your father's shade or whatever that thing was). Meanwhile the PC's expected to comfort him whenever he makes a frowny face about Duncan. =/