579 réponses à ce sujet

[Bugsie]

Not sure if it's come up before but what about ‘healing intimacy’ that the character, if troubled or has been through trauma, can only be healed by a sexual relationship with the PC.  I keep thinking of Jack, as a femShep I felt there was no way to help her (Oh and did that ****** me off) if I was mShep though I’d be all ‘here, all the medicine you need is in my pants’.

[Ryzaki]

See the healing **** doesn't bother me as much when said character has a viable friendship path that achieves the same thing.

 

That's what annoyed me so much about Jack. If you didn't want to romance her she pretty much shut you down.

[Vapaa]

 

That's what annoyed me so much about Jack. If you didn't want to romance her she pretty much shut you down.

 

Or if you did but picked female...

[Bugsie]

I think if I had been able to become closer to Jack as fShep (not in a romance or sexual way) the healing intimacy wouldn't have bothered me so much either.

 

The DA2 thing - I don't recall Isabella's romance arc being like that.

[Ryzaki]

Or if you did but picked female...

 

Yeah

 

I mean that's just...please please no more shutting the PC down beacuse he/she isn't boning the companion. Just...it's gross on so many levels.

[Ryzaki]

I think if I had been able to become closer to Jack as fShep (not in a romance or sexual way) the healing intimacy wouldn't have bothered me so much either.

 

The DA2 thing - I don't recall Isabella's romance arc being like that.

 

Exactly.

 

I think Isabela's romance arc (from what I can remember of the one time I played it) was more about trust and reaching out. And she did that just as much with a unromanced Hawke to me. Her commitment issues to me was more because she was used to fleeing from things she thought could hurt her,  I may be way off because like I said been a while and she always thought about number one first. Her bringing back the tome was her attempt to put someone else before herself to help a friend (if friend) or not be as selfish (if rival) and her avoiding Hawke afterwards is a bit of her fear of being rejected once she put herself out there because she doesn't think that highly of herself "You're the Champion. And I'm just a lying thieving snake." but you can be there for her regardless of romance.

 

If anyone who does her route often want to correct this by all means. I can't remember a lot of the route.

[Allan Schumacher]

I'd like to see a lessening of the "Nasty-minded shrew" and the "sweet, naive idealist" who have been the omnipresent females in pretty much every Bioware game, ever.  Let's have a look:

 

Can you elaborate on the meaning of the phrases you used.  The last I am more familiar with, but I had to look up the term "shrew" and the definition I found didn't really help me out with respect to many of your examples.

[Stelae]

Gosh. You remind of something even more profound. I saw the term "scientist" and it got me thinking about the intelligent men...The thinkers, the scientists, the philosophers...Many of them...Both in real life and in games, especially in games...Women take little to no interest in them...

 

It is really a tragic thing really...That there is this trope, both in games and in reality...where intelligent men are thrown under the proverbial bus in favor of pretty awkward boys or angsty brooding emos or tough machos...

 

It does not exactly set a very healthy trend does it ?

Well, in my case, I married a sweet intellectual geographer (who is awkward, pretty, occasionally brooding) IRL.  So on one leveI I appreciate the variety in RP games --- I can explore a relationship with a chap or a woman I'd not otherwise have the opportunity to pursue.

 

I don't think, for example, Mordin, was "thrown under a bus" though.  Any more than Irving (I guess the Circle of Magi can stand in for an institute of higher learning) was.  Neither was rejected by the PC, much less treated cruelly; they were not options in the first place.  And "the scientist is old and male" is an annoying trope, but not a romantic one ...

 

But an intellectual, bookish type would make a refreshing change in a LI, especially if it were an egalitarian relationship, like between FemShep and Liara.  Not all intellectuals are fusty old (male) eccentrics, after all.  Fittting them into a High Fantasy narrative like DA might be a bit of a challenge, of course ... I have high hopes for Josephine.

[Allan Schumacher]

"The perfect girl/boyfriend" trope.  Never hear any banter about PC screwing up once PC is established in relationship, which would be kind of funny.  And not in a plot altering, massive way of screwing up, but just normal oops crap that friends could remind them.  Like "Anders was mad the last time you forgot to feed his cat." or forgetting a birthday.  The closest I thing that was touched on was Anders/Merril scene with the dog scene.  And maybe that one banter between Alistair and Zevran about the night in the tent.

Don't think the scene is necessary, but banter might be cool.

 

Basically the idea that typically LI are maybe too universally accepting of the player character barring maybe ultra extreme (Urn of Sacred Ashes) or the utterly mundane/irrelevant stuff that anyone could point out?

[Stelae]

Warriors. They're always straight. Alistair. Cullen. Cassandra. Aveline (I think). Fenris was the exception.

I'd love to see a gay warrior. Either gender.

Given that Aveline was married -- twice -- to men, and never shows any interest in romancing any woman, it's probably safe to assume she's close to that end of the scale, at the very least.  (Assuming you think it's a scale, which I know many don't ... )

 

Well, we've got a pansexual warrior in this game, at least.  And a rogue who isn't bi ...

 

Maybe next time?

[Schreckstoff]

Well, in my case, I married a sweet intellectual geographer (who is awkward, pretty, occasionally brooding) IRL.  So on one leveI I appreciate the variety in RP games --- I can explore a relationship with a chap or a woman I'd not otherwise have the opportunity to pursue.

 

I don't think, for example, Mordin, was "thrown under a bus" though.  Any more than Irving (I guess the Circle of Magi can stand in for an institute of higher learning) was.  Neither was rejected by the PC, much less treated cruelly; they were not options in the first place.  And "the scientist is old and male" is an annoying trope, but not a romantic one ...

 

But an intellectual, bookish type would make a refreshing change in a LI, especially if it were an egalitarian relationship, like between FemShep and Liara.  Not all intellectuals are fusty old (male) eccentrics, after all.  Fittting them into a High Fantasy narrative like DA might be a bit of a challenge, of course ... I have high hopes for Josephine.

Wouldn't Solas qulaify, if he turns out to be a LI that is?

 

Also Liara most definitely is the intellectual type.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Well, in my case, I married a sweet intellectual geographer (who is awkward, pretty, occasionally brooding) IRL.  So on one leveI I appreciate the variety in RP games --- I can explore a relationship with a chap or a woman I'd not otherwise have the opportunity to pursue.

 

I don't think, for example, Mordin, was "thrown under a bus" though.  Any more than Irving (I guess the Circle of Magi can stand in for an institute of higher learning) was.  Neither was rejected by the PC, much less treated cruelly; they were not options in the first place.  And "the scientist is old and male" is an annoying trope, but not a romantic one ...

 

But an intellectual, bookish type would make a refreshing change in a LI, especially if it were an egalitarian relationship, like between FemShep and Liara.  Not all intellectuals are fusty old (male) eccentrics, after all.  Fittting them into a High Fantasy narrative like DA might be a bit of a challenge, of course ... I have high hopes for Josephine.

I think the easiest path for an intellectual type LI in DA would be a mage that researches magical theories. Solas seems like he might fit and there was Finn in Witch Hunt. It's harder to make it work for other classes, but a mage could definitely fit in easily and we've even seen at least one that I think fit the type. Possibly an explorer type rogue with an interest in history could work for a bit more adventurous example, a sort that snuck around old ruins looking for important artifacts and the like, since those places are often very dangerous, but are also a wealth of lost knowledge. 

[In Exile]

Thinking on this topic, it seems to be that Bioware romances show two other pattern (not necessarily bad in either case):

 

1. That romantic love is the end-goal of the relationship. DA:O is the most mechanically obvious in this regard (there is an actual "Love" level of approval), but the same applies in DA2. The first conversation that Merrill and Isabella have with Hawke post-Act II scene is about love - in the former case, Merrill brings it up, whereas in the latter case Hawke brings it up to Isabella. Some might think that having a relationship end in romantic love is the point of a "romance", of course, so this is not to say that it is a bad approach. But there is no middle ground for a relationship to simply "be", on the basis of attraction, etc. 

 

2. That the relationship is supposed to be forever. This isn't something that most romances explicitly state outright, but the idea that the relationship has an expiration date is seen as a decided negative (cf. in particular the Morrigan romance). Splitting up in the future (or at the end of the adventure) is typically portrayed as the "bad end" for the relationship.

[Stelae]

Wouldn't Solas qulaify, if he turns out to be a LI that is?

 

Also Liara most definitely is the intellectual type.

Solas seems to be very intelligent, from the little we know, but he's had little formal education either generally or in magic.  He's a Fade expert because he spends a lot of his time there, rather than through years of traditional research.  So, more like a self-taught musician compared to someone who went to the Conservatory; both could be brilliant, but their approach to their field of expertise, and to the world in general, is likely very different. He's also likely to be more worldly than someone who spends most of their time with their nose in a book--for starters, he'd have to be wary of being caught.  Depends whether you think academic types are born or made, I suspect.  And we don't know very much about his ways, or whether he'll be an LI. 

 

Liara certainly is a stereotypical academic in many ways.  You know, if she'd had a gift for patter songs, she'd have been perfect ...

[Allan Schumacher]

This is a good point to take notice of and bring to Allen's attention. It hadn't occurred to me but you're right, all of the f/f LIs are feminine in ways that are likely appealing to straight men. There's no "butch" bi or lesbian LIs and I can't help wondering if this is because someone thinks that straight men won't want to romance someone who is" manly". Maybe it's accidental, but it's a good thing to think about during the character planning from the next game.

 

While I disagree, many say that Cassandra has these more manly features.  Plenty of women were upset because they fit the butch type.  But she's a LI for men, so does she subvert the idea that "straight men won't want to romance someone who is 'manly'" at all?

[Allan Schumacher]

New stuff, to be added to the original list:

 

Added Gay to Lesbian Tragedy

Added "healing" trope is exacerbated by requiring romance to be done (not friendship)

Added "Women do not have a past relationship" to Carth Syndrome

 

 

Originals:

 

• If you're not straight, you're a Rogue
• If your devout, chivalric/virtuous, or knightly/heroic, you're straight.
• Bisexuals seem to have female preference
• Gay and bisexual people have dark backgrounds, that comes across as feeling like that is why they are not straight
• Bisexuals are promiscuous
• Carth Syndrome (and the fact that Women typically do not have a past relationship)
• Lesbian/Gay Tragedy
• People with dark/damaged pasts tend to be LI, and by being a LI they are "healed" (and rarely by friendship)

 

New:

 

• Forcing LIs to "change for their own good" (Possibly related to "healing" trope)
• Men LI aren't intellectuals
• More virgin romances/LI always interested in sex before marriage
• Perceived "leading" characters are straight. 
• If a character is "unkillable" they tend to be a straight LI and not an LGBT LI
• Cunning/Manipulative LIs are typically women (Morrigan, Isabela, Miranda)
• LI are often only seen as LGBT if they're in the active romance with the player
• Women have narrower standards of beauty

 

 

I'll update the OP with the new stuff (and changes) after people have had a chance to view them.

[Who Knows]

I'd like to mention that the vast majority of female companions period, love interest or not - are conventionally and traditionally feminine.

 

The only exceptions I can think of are Shale, Jack (in a game where there weren't any "full" same sex romances besides arguably Liara), Akaavi Spar (in a game with no full same sex romances whatsoever), Cassandra, and Shar-Teel (who hated men and was chaotic evil ). So I think the issue isn't just female love interests that are F/F available, it's inclusion of "non-traditionally feminine" female companions in general, and inclusion of female lesbian/bisexual companions in general. Had Mass Effect 2 been more inclusive, Jack may have been an option for women and had TOR been more inclusive, Akaavi may have been an option for women. And if Bioware games had more "non-traditionally feminine" female characters, there would be more to choose from in deciding who to make a romance.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I just brought it up in another thread, but I'd like to add here the fact that female LIs are usually either human or traditionally "pretty" races (elven, Asari), while males often get the less conventional choices (dwarves, qunari, turian).

[Who Knows]

What about transgendered LI's? Or even just companions in general? Thedas is a place of magic - can transgender people exist? They exist here. They even win awards for acting (Laverne Cox! ).

What about an LI who is gender fluid or transgender or intersexed? If people like Iron Bull exist, claiming to be pansexual, then said pansexuality would be attracted to those who are not binary in gender. If everyone in Thedas was strictly binary in gender, then there wouldn't be pansexuality, only bisexuality.

That's a good point. There doesn't seem to be any reason to specifically label Iron Bull as pansexual unless there exist genderqueer people in Thedas or that the writer was thinking hypothetically?

 

I would like to see trans* characters as well. Who are NOT comic relief. Maevaris is an example of a trans* character in the Dragon Age universe, but she was a in comic rather than in a game.

Inclusion of gender fluid or intersexed characters would be good as well.

[JadePrince]

While I disagree, many say that Cassandra has these more manly features.  Plenty of women were upset because they fit the butch type.  But she's a LI for men, so does she subvert the idea that "straight men won't want to romance someone who is 'manly'" at all?

 

Hmm... how to put this. The issue isn't just that straight men don't want a manly LI, it's that the lesbian/bi women LI seem to be visually more designed to appeal to the typical idea of what the media tells us straight men want (aka feminine, femme, not butch, not 'manly'). 

 

Anyone else wanna chime in? I'm not sure I'm expressing this properly.

[JadePrince]

What about transgendered LI's? Or even just companions in general? Thedas is a place of magic - can transgender people exist? They exist here. They even win awards for acting (Laverne Cox! ).

What about an LI who is gender fluid or transgender or intersexed? If people like Iron Bull exist, claiming to be pansexual, then said pansexuality would be attracted to those who are not binary in gender. If everyone in Thedas was strictly binary in gender, then there wouldn't be pansexuality, only bisexuality.

edit: if we had a transgendered LI option then that would allow us to play a character who is also pansexual.

 

Be careful bringing up the idea of trans LIs. I did this in the romance thread and got hella piled on by people upset at the idea of a transwoman "tricking" them into a romance. :/ So yeah. 

 

On the bright side, some things D. Gaider and co said at GaymerX get me hopeful that there will be some sort of trans or genderqueer-ness happening in Thedas in DA:I, even if not among our LIs. *crossing fingers*

 

Edit: Sorry this is a bit off-topic... if you wanna chat more, PM me.