579 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Hmm... how to put this. The issue isn't just that straight men don't want a manly LI, it's that the lesbian/bi women LI seem to be visually more designed to appeal to the typical idea of what the media tells us straight men want (aka feminine, femme, not butch, not 'manly'). 

 

Anyone else wanna chime in? I'm not sure I'm expressing this properly.

 

I guess where I am curious:

 

Do you think that the same people are okay with a manly LI if they are straight, but less so if they are lesbian or bisexual?

[Allan Schumacher]

Be careful bringing up the idea of trans LIs. I did this in the romance thread and got hella piled on by people upset at the idea of a transwoman "tricking" them into a romance. :/ So yeah. 

 

On the bright side, some things D. Gaider and co said at GaymerX get me hopeful that there will be some sort of trans or genderqueer-ness happening in Thedas in DA:I, even if not among our LIs. *crossing fingers*

 

Within the context of this particularly thread, unless it's a statement of a trope "You don't have trans-characters" I'd prefer to not explore the theme to much in this particular thread.

 

 

My motivation for this thread was when I saw a whole bunch of people suggesting that our romances are often quite similar between each other between games, so ideally I'd like it to be more of a critique of things we've done, although I can acknowledge that "things we haven't done" is related to it (doing nothing is technically still doing something...) so I have been mostly okay when stuff like that comes up.  But looking more at "what has BioWare done with their romance content in the past that is problematic and so forth."

 

I'll also admit that I'm woefully ill equipped to deal with a conversation like that in that I'll undoubtedly make mistakes trying to deal with it, which may sidetrack what I'm hoping to get from the thread itself.

 

 

Thanks.

[Allan Schumacher]

Iron Bull is pretty manly and he swings every which way. What do people think about him? (Don't ask me. I'm biased.)

 

Unless I'm mistaken, JadePrince's point was regarding women LI, so I'd like to keep the scope within that since that's the part that tripped me up.

[Kallimachus]

Here's another one I noticed:

 

Shields make you straight. (Alistair, Aveline, Cullen, Cassandra)

 

Although I'm not sure it stand on its own, as there's a lot of overlap with "If your devout, chivalric/virtuous, or knightly/heroic, you're straight." Which was one I originally mentioned in this thread. Three out of the four DA examples for each of these trope are in both groups. So take it as you will.

[Allan Schumacher]

Shields make you straight. (Alistair, Aveline, Cullen, Cassandra)

 

I saw this one in a different post, but saw the "if you're not straight, you're a rogue."  While Dorian coming in changes that up, is it sufficient to keep it within that trope or do you think it'd be useful to explicitly state it?

[JadePrince]

I guess where I am curious:

 

Do you think that the same people are okay with a manly LI if they are straight, but less so if they are lesbian or bisexual?

 

Well.... no, I think probably, the same straight guys who think Cassandra is too 'manly' would be equally turned off by romancing her in a f/f playthrough.

 

I think Cassandra is a great great start to Bioware creating female LIs who aren't all very clearly (visually) feminine, who tread closer to that androgynous line. I think the trouble now is that f/f players would really like a character like that for them, and so far all they have is 'femmes'. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I feel like the "straight warriors" thing is more about personality. Warriors also just happen to all have that same personality. But I think Sebastian fits in better with the group than some warriors. (Iron Bull, Blackwall, Fenris)  

[Kallimachus]

I saw this one in a different post, but saw the "if you're not straight, you're a rogue."  While Dorian coming in changes that up, is it sufficient to keep it within that trope or do you think it'd be useful to explicitly state it?

 

I don't know. Like I said, I'm not sure it's sufficient to be considered a trope, considered how much it has in common with the "plaladin-esque" trope. Although we alredy had a (sort of) queer two-handed warrior (Fenris), a (sort of) queer mage (Merril) and a definitely queer mage (Anders). So I'm going to leave it up to you.

[Stelae]

That's a good point. There doesn't seem to be any reason to specifically label Iron Bull as pansexual unless there exist genderqueer people in Thedas or that the writer was thinking hypothetically?

 

I think of him as pansexual because he was described as willing to have sex with anyone he was reasonably sure wouldn't break.  We know there are trans people in Thedas; I suspect it's reasonable to extrapolate that there are fluid, queer and non-binary people as well.  At least I hope so. 

[Who Knows]

On that note, there aren't any "femme" male companions either, really. The closest would be Fenris, Zevran, or Sky, but even then not really.

[RevilFox]

I'm not sure how this fits into the discussion, but I think it does somewhere. I remember when ME2 was first coming out, and Jack was revealed. Pretty much everyone looked at her and said, "Well, she's OBVIOUSLY the F/F romance."

[Nocte ad Mortem]

On that note, there aren't any "femme" male companions either, really. The closest would be Fenris, Zevran, or Sky, but even then not really.

I would really love to see more males that don't conform to gender stereotypes in different ways.  

[Who Knows]

Here's another one. Body types. All love interests are slim, most males are muscular whereas the females are usually not. And also around human height.

 

Some of this may be chalked up to resources like in DA:O, where all male/female humans/elves had the same body period. But with Dragon Age Inquisition's companions all having unique body models, it's not something that has to be so. So I'd like to see more diversity in body types.

There is some with Iron Bull's height (although it isn't too remarkable given that he's male) and possibly with Cassandra's possible muscles, but I'd like to see more even so. Having a dwarf love interest by itself would actually be very different from what we've ever had.

[RevilFox]

I guess where I am curious:

 

Do you think that the same people are okay with a manly LI if they are straight, but less so if they are lesbian or bisexual?

 

I actually do think this is true. I think that, despite the fact that Bioware has never had a "butch" F/F LI, the reaction from most people would be, "Well of course she's the F/F LI!"

[Kallimachus]

I actually do think this is true. I think that, despite the fact that Bioware has never had a "butch" F/F LI, the reaction from most people would be, "Well of course she's the F/F LI!"

 

Yeah, I agree. You could see this with Dorian as well, before he was officially revealed as gay, there were a lot of posts speculating he would be gay, and mostly they were based on stereotypes, like his "dramatic hands", or his description as "dashing", "fashionable" and the mustache of course. I found it annoying, not because there aren't gay men who fit gay stereotypes and therefore shouldn't be represented (I mean, I'm a gay man, and I like musicals and opera, and I have no patience for group sports of any kind, although I similarly have no patience for fashion and fashionistas), but I loath the fact that these stereotypes let people to conclude "oh, well, he must be gay then." At some point I've even posted that I wished he weren't gay, just because of these speculative stereotypes.

[Kallimachus]

I would really love to see more males that don't conform to gender stereotypes in different ways.  

 

There was a cute mod for DA2 that I tweaked further for my own game, that switched the walk and idle stance for males and females in the game. It was really fun giving Anders Isabela's movements and poses, and giving Fenris Merril's. Also, IMO it made them sexier

[PsychoBlonde]

 

Can you elaborate on the meaning of the phrases you used.  The last I am more familiar with, but I had to look up the term "shrew" and the definition I found didn't really help me out with respect to many of your examples.

Sure:

A "shrew" is a self-willed, critical, "difficult", argumentative woman who attempts to dominate and steer her relationships.  It's a pejorative term but when you're talking about tropes pejoratives usually fit.  I've also run across more than one person on other sites who uses the term "shrew" to describe you folks' Stock Strong Female Characters that you have in pretty much all of your games and who are almost universally an LI.  Whatever else may be different about them, they all think you're an idiot who can barely be trusted to dress himself and you have to prove differently while they look on with arms crossed and foot a-tappin.  They know more than you do. Nothing pleases them.  First thing they say to you is likely to be either a complaint, a snide comment, or an order.

 

"Naive, innocent idealist" should be pretty self-explanatory.  Also fitting into this category is anyone who can be described as "sweet" or "girly" or who has a really high voice that makes them sound like a 13-year-old girl.  (Aerie, I'm looking at YOU.)  If there's a second female LI, it's one of these.  Always enthusiastic about what's going down.  Eager to help.  Usually can't solve own problems.

 

A "stiff" is a goal-driven male party member who is preoccupied with some kind of Big Issue.  Carth Onasi is mooning over his dead family, looking for revenge, and generally having a hard time.  Valen Doesn't Trust You.  Anomen's getting ready to take his Test to join his Order and has all kinds of crazy family crap going down.  Fenris is after Danarius.  They're all serious, they're all touchy, they require regular soothing, they pick fights with you, and you have to EARN their respect.  They all REALLY hate something/someone and you can get into a HUGE fight with them over it.  Alternatively (Kaiden) they may just be sitting on a big pile of guilt.

 

The party animal basically makes it clear the moment you meet that they're up for anything that looks fun and (if you're female) that you're hot and they want in your pants.  They don't take much of anything seriously (or so they claim), they're looking to live the good life, have fun, get drunk, have sex, shoot lightning at fools, and otherwise party hearty.  They don't like it when you're a buzzkill or touchy or when you support people who are either.  Frequently not actually an LI.

 

On further consideration Sky is actually more of a Stiff than a Party Animal.  He (like Carth) is mooning over his dead family.  He's out for revenge.  He's just a more cheerful guy overall, but he shares the very common stiff trait of  being preoccupied with something.

[Vapaa]

There is some with Iron Bull's height (although it isn't too remarkable given that he's male) and possibly with Cassandra's possible muscles, but I'd like to see more even so. Having a dwarf love interest by itself would actually be very different from what we've ever had.

 

Sera is really tall, especially for an elf.

[Tayah]

I guess where I am curious:

 

Do you think that the same people are okay with a manly LI if they are straight, but less so if they are lesbian or bisexual?

I'm not exactly sure which group we're talking about I think I got turned around somewhere so all I can tell you is that I'm a lesbian who would like more 'butch' options in the game and was seriously hoping Cass would at least be bi. I remember reading posts that make me think I'm not the only one though I'm not sure how many were bi/lesbian and how many would have tried the romance if straight in real life. 

 

Yeah, I agree. You could see this with Dorian as well, before he was officially revealed as gay, there were a lot of posts speculating he would be gay, and mostly they were based on stereotypes, like his "dramatic hands", or his description as "dashing", "fashionable" and the mustache of course. I found it annoying, not because there aren't gay men who fit gay stereotypes and therefore shouldn't be represented (I mean, I'm a gay man, and I like musicals and opera, and I have no patience for group sports of any kind, although I similarly have no patience for fashion and fashionistas), but I loath the fact that these stereotypes let people to conclude "oh, well, he must be gay then." At some point I've even posted that I wished he weren't gay, just because of these speculative stereotypes.

I understand what you're saying though stereotypes are applied to everyone in some form or another. What I like to see is stereotypes being twisted or subverted in some way or another because people in reality aren't able to be put in boxes. I'm a lesbian who likes sport, gaming and tech stuff in general and hates fashion, shopping and shoes but also likes curling up with a good book or baking and cooking though I tend to identify myself as a "tomboy" I'm more complicated than that as you are in your description and most people are in reality. I think if characters stick entirely within a stereotype there could be problems but I think there's enough room to move that allows a character to not be as stereotypical as people assume. I guess what I'm saying is that I'd hate to miss out on ever having a "butch" or even less "femme" lesbian/bi romance because of a fear of people pointing to it as "gay". To me this becomes a lose/lose proposition because then you never include certain character traits and the people that will point and speculate win anyway you look at it. 

 

 

Snip:

I actually think we see all four of these a lot and most characters fit into one or more of these types but while I think there are actually cross-overs in three of these the shrew seems to only be women. Aveline I would place in the stiff category, Alistair in the naive idealist and Isabella is a party animal so while there are some examples of both genders in these categories I can't think of any male that fits the shrew type atm. Maybe someone else can. 

[Tora Panthera]

I think that with Anders, Isabella and Zevran, there might have been a bit of "bisexuals don't take commitment seriously". With Zevran and Isabella it was their general attitude towards relationships, and with Anders it was him mostly having had physical relationships in the circle. Since these are characters that have more focus on their sexuality, it makes it look quite stereotypical. 

[MrDuck]

If you're a straight male dwarf, you always have to romance someone a looooot taller than you. Since there have never been female dwarf romances  . I mean I get that someone might find it awkward romancing such a little woman, but if you make her race gated that wouldn't be an issue in my opinion.

 

Yeah, I'm a bit disappointed with Dagna being no romance. I'll probably be over it tomorrow but still...

[Ieldra]

• People with dark/damaged pasts tend to be LI, and by being a LI they are "healed"

I would like to explain why I dislike this so much:

 

I am often drawn towards "grey" characters because I like them as they are. I almost never feel they need (more than slight, if any) moral reorientation because more often than not, I like them exactly for the (usually somewhat consequentialist) ethics they have. I also dislike the trope "your love has changed me" since it makes me feel my LI is not my equal. I very much resent that the story often suggests exactly these things (moral reorientation of grey characters, being changed by love into something more conventional (and thus usually less interesting)) as good and desirable.

 

This effect has made me "fall out of love" with what used to be my second most favorite character in all Bioware games since BG. That's how important this is.