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I would also like to add another observed tendency:
The best-looking male is gay. Now looks are somewhat subjective, but that's the impression I usually get, and with what's known of DAI most of all. Straight male LI candidates tend to be a bit rougher, or...as has already been observed, "manlier". As if a straight woman wouldn't appreciate a man who looks good. Perhaps there's a little too much of a male writer's wished-for self-image in the stories?
Straigh females are the ones that usually can end up with being dumped. be it for choices or just arbitrary.
Jacob is the most evident example, but Alistair and Sebastian are good example too.
Alistair if made King leave you if you aren't a human noble (and is bad because the game tell you "if you aren't a character of the most standard race/origin you don't deserve the best ending") or you can be his semi-secret lover. little more than a courtisan. It can feel a little as being a "second cathegory woman". the dirty little secret. not very funny, at least for me.
ah. and of course he dump you if you let Loghain live. I'm not against LI having a "breaking point", but at least not at the very end of the game! if the breaking point is before, well...at least the player can try find someone else!
Sebastian will leave you depending on the choice you make with Anders. same with Alistair with Loghain. is almost a trend: LI dumps you nearly the end of the game. and this always happen with straigh female romance.
I would also like to add another observed tendency:
The best-looking male is gay. Now looks are somewhat subjective, but that's the impression I usually get, and with what's known of DAI most of all. Straight male LI candidates tend to be a bit rougher, or...as has already been observed, "manlier". As if a straight woman wouldn't appreciate a man who looks good. Perhaps there's a little too much of a male writer's wished-for self-image in the stories?
I don't think you can base a trope off of one character ever.
Sebastian will leave you depending on the choice you make with Anders. same with Alistair with Loghain. is almost a trend: LI dumps you nearly the end of the game. and this always happen with straigh female romance.
On the other hand, Morrigan leaves the straight male Warden at the end of DAO no matter what he does. (You can hook up with her again in Witch Hunt, of course, possibly because so many people were upset by this.)
Also, I'm not sure making Alistair king and ruling beside him is automatically the happiest ending. If you're an elf, dwarf or mage staying together in the Wardens is just as good - maybe even better if Alistair is unhardened and doesn't have any interest in ruling.
I would also like to add another observed tendency:
The best-looking male is gay. Now looks are somewhat subjective, but that's the impression I usually get, and with what's known of DAI most of all. Straight male LI candidates tend to be a bit rougher, or...as has already been observed, "manlier". As if a straight woman wouldn't appreciate a man who looks good. Perhaps there's a little too much of a male writer's wished-for self-image in the stories?
Which males are you talking about? I don't understand this at all...
I'd love for their to be a "No sex before marriage" LI type. I'm tired of nothing but pre-marital sex LIs when I don't adhere to that kind of stuff.
Agreed. Alternatively, I would like there to be a type of LI that is quite happy to have sex before marriage but who will respect the protagonist's wishes if they choose to wait, and for the romance to proceed just as happily as it would otherwise. Even if the LI actually insists on the pre-marital sex (hey, it's important to some people), having the option to mention that one's own views are different is important. The protagonist could then choose either to compromise in order to continue the romance or would end the relationship (amicably or otherwise; it would depend on the characters) and look for someone else who would be willing to wait.
People talk about the Sebastian romance as covering this, but, really, the initial flirts seem to be entirely sexual, and I feel like my character is defining her interest in him solely on those terms when she flirts that way. Honestly, I feel like she's objectifying him very coarsely, which seems wrong given then he's sorta-celibate when you meet him. Would have been nice to have different types of flirts. On the other hand, the chaste marriage was certainly unique, so that breaks some of Bioware's established archetypes, but it would have been nice if it could have been a bit more romantic, even if sex is off the cards.
I don't think you can base a trope off of one character ever.
It's two characters ever if you count Steve, but two is not enough either.
Agreed, female on male flirts in particular often come off as very sexually aggressive. Looking at ME2 for example, the only romance I really felt comfortable with was Thane's. It was about empathy and feeling a connection with another person, and the flirts reflected that. Jacob's was so overtly sexualized I couldn't even get through it, and while Garrus' ended well, it started out with femshep straight-up propositioning Garrus.
Frequently in these games I try to get through the romances with as few flirts dialogue options chosen as possible, because while I like the romances themselves, the flirt dialogues always make me cringe.
It's two characters ever if you count Steve, but two is not enough either.
(it's also very arguable that Cortez it's better looking than Kaidan 
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(it's also very arguable that Cortez it's better looking than Kaidan
Kaidan is bi in the last game, tho. It'd have to be Cortez vs Garrus
ETA: Not that I'm complaining, I think straight women have had hot male LIs in every bioware game
I take it the other one is Dorian? Well... personally I don't find Steve the handsomest guy in ME3 nor Dorian the handsomest guy in DAI. So not only is the sample size too small, it is also highly subjective.
Kaidan is bi in the last game, tho. It'd have to be Cortez vs Garrus
So bi would count as "available to gay men", or are they left out entirely? If its the former, I think it'd be a tie (Kaidan, Cortez, Zevran, Fenris, Anders, Dorian... gay men only miss Alistair, Cullen and Jacob, and straight women miss Dorian... the difference would be really only that straight women have more LIs. It'd be still true that the "unconventional" LIs are more frequent for straight women, but the problem would still be the same probably, more LIs
In any case, I only chimed in to sugest that Kaidan it's probably the best looking man in ME 
Agreed, female on male flirts in particular often come off as very sexually aggressive. Looking at ME2 for example, the only romance I really felt comfortable with was Thane's. It was about empathy and feeling a connection with another person, and the flirts reflected that. Jacob's was so overtly sexualized I couldn't even get through it, and while Garrus' ended well, it started out with femshep straight-up propositioning Garrus.
Frequently in these games I try to get through the romances with as few flirts dialogue options chosen as possible, because while I like the romances themselves, the flirt dialogues always make me cringe.
Indeed. Jacob's romance in particular really painted FemShep into a corner. You couldn't even talk to the guy without coming across as highly suggestive. With Garrus, at least, you can go through the friendship arc without being forced to flirt.
That said, I don't want to "punish" DA writers for choices by ME writers. They are mostly different teams. 
Agreed, female on male flirts in particular often come off as very sexually aggressive. Looking at ME2 for example, the only romance I really felt comfortable with was Thane's. It was about empathy and feeling a connection with another person, and the flirts reflected that. Jacob's was so overtly sexualized I couldn't even get through it, and while Garrus' ended well, it started out with femshep straight-up propositioning Garrus.
Frequently in these games I try to get through the romances with as few flirts dialogue options chosen as possible, because while I like the romances themselves, the flirt dialogues always make me cringe.
Shepard probably should have been sent on a course about appropriate behaviour in the workplace. I'm pretty sure quite a few crew members could have sued her for sexual harassment. Especially considering she was the boss. Her "I'm more interested in just talking for a bit" (not sure of the exact quote) line to Jacob is awful especially if she's in a relationship with someone else, in some playthroughs I just avoid chatting to him so I don't have to hear her say it.
Yeah a lot of the flirt options are cringey. But there are some pretty fun moments where Warden/Hawke can be completely oblivious e.g. Hawke's response to Isabela's suggestion of "girly fun" can be "what? like shopping?" (or words to that effect) That's much more fun than choosing the heart option earlier on and I love Isabela's explanation of what "girly fun" is.
Trouble is people whinge if the LI makes the first move so the PC kind of has to really which can then sometimes come across a bit aggressive.
On the other hand, Morrigan leaves the straight male Warden at the end of DAO no matter what he does. (You can hook up with her again in Witch Hunt, of course, possibly because so many people were upset by this.)
Also, I'm not sure making Alistair king and ruling beside him is automatically the happiest ending. If you're an elf, dwarf or mage staying together in the Wardens is just as good - maybe even better if Alistair is unhardened and doesn't have any interest in ruling.
The DLC make me not talk about Morrigan, since it rectify the romance ending. but not only for this. even leaving behind the male warden, Morrigan don't dump him. She have to go, but she didn't broke the relationship. she just leave because she have to. Is quite different from Alistair's "now I'm too important to be with you" if made king.
And I like the both warden ending, but surely reigning together over a country is more satisfating than killing darkspawn until the Calling. just sayng.
So bi would count as "available to gay men", or are they left out entirely? If its the former, I think it'd be a tie (Kaidan, Cortez, Zevran, Fenris, Anders, Dorian... gay men only miss Alistair, Cullen and Jacob, and straight women miss Dorian... the difference would be really only that straight women have more LIs. It'd be still true that the "unconventional" LIs are more frequent for straight women, but the problem would still be the same probably, more LIs
In any case, I only chimed in to sugest that Kaidan it's probably the best looking man in ME
Most of the "unconventional straight guys" were actually extra LIs that gay guys didn't get an alternative to, though. In ME women get Garrus, Thane, Jacob and Kaidan. Gay men get Kaidan and Cortez. During the series, we both got one extra guy that was relatively attractive besides Kaidan. Straight women got two unconventional LIs, but we just got nothing in those slots.
But I also think it's completely subjective to say Dorian is better looking than Cullen. I doubt his near 2k page character thread feels that way. Plus, many would say Alistair and Sebastian are the best looking guys in their games.
The LI that the player has to "fix".
Basically it's the LI that has suffered some sort of deep trauma that makes them fear love, or fear that they'll only hurt the player and only through the power of luuuurve can the player restore their confidence and heal their wounded heart. Mostly male LI's have fallen under this trope in my experience and it can be done well but...sometimes it's fun to have an LI without a lot of baggage.
Yes, this is referred to as "Intimate Psychotherapy" and among tropes and cliche's, it's the only one I actually find offensive. The rest are benign or playfully ignorant at worst.
The whole Intimate Psychotherapy trope propagates a degree of co-dependency that, at least in my opinion, is very destructive, usually as a result of a one-way (Parasitic) relationship.
I'll admit though, it'd be kind of cool if this was explored in a way that reflects how the reality of such a relationship usually goes down. An LI subplot that is destined to fail, I bet that wouldn't create a 5,000 page thread on BSN at all!
Most of the "unconventional straight guys" were actually extra LIs that gay guys didn't get an alternative to, though. In ME women get Garrus, Thane, Jacob and Kaidan. Gay men get Kaidan and Cortez. During the series, we both got one extra guy that was relatively attractive besides Kaidan. Straight women got two unconventional LIs, but we just got nothing in those slots.
But I also think it's completely subjective to say Dorian is better looking than Cullen. I doubt his near 2k page character thread feels that way. Plus, many would say Alistair and Sebastian are the best looking guys in their games.
Definitely subjetive. I think all human and elf male LIs in DA and ME are physically attractive, and it's mostly a matter of preference which one is the best looking, that's why I included them all in the list
Hmm... how to put this. The issue isn't just that straight men don't want a manly LI, it's that the lesbian/bi women LI seem to be visually more designed to appeal to the typical idea of what the media tells us straight men want (aka feminine, femme, not butch, not 'manly').
Anyone else wanna chime in? I'm not sure I'm expressing this properly.
The lesbian stereotype in the mass media is being butch. By having lesbian characters as more feminine, while they could be argued to be steering towards the typical heterosexual male view of attractiveness, it is also going against the general portrayal of lesbian characters.
There is a reason for why some people think that Cassandra "looks" like a Lesbian. It is because she is the kind of character that normally would be one, based upon the stereotype. Lesbians are very rarely portrayed as "girly girls", at least in Western media.
The only exception tends to be whenever the characters exist purely for the sake of having "hot lesbians" in the piece of media.
There is also the fact that just because they appear to fit the typical heterosexual males view of attractiveness, does not mean that they do not also appeal to the typical Lesbian view of it. Or to perhaps put it another way, just because heterosexual guys might like it, doesn't mean it was made with them in mind.
Definitely subjective. I think all human and elf male LIs in DA and ME are physically attractive, and it's mostly a matter of preference which one is the best looking, that's why I included them all in the list
It is completely subjective, I agree.
Personally I do not find any of the LI's to be particularly attractive physically. That is not a criticism, they just don't really fit in with my personal tastes from what I have seen so far.
edit: if we had a transgendered LI option then that would allow us to play a character who is also pansexual.
Erm, perhaps you're thinking of specifically nonbinary trans people? However, to get technical, bisexuals can still be attracted to nonbinary people since the definition of bisexuality is not "only (cis) men and women" but rather "same and other genders" instead. Which also means that pansexual and bisexual are technically very similar in definition.
As for Maevaris, she was canonically married to a male dwarf, which I found very interesting both for the fact a dwarf was finally shown as attracted to non-dwarves, and for Mae to be who she is and marry who she wants and no one giving her **** for it. I disliked her "reveal" scene for a few reasons, but it... could have been worse, I'll leave it at that.
I'd be delighted to have a transgender companion or NPC in future games, though I'm also somewhat cautious about it given how easily things can smack into Unfortunate Implications. I mean, in the games there's already the brothel issues and the general impression that drag queen is interchangeable with trans woman when it very much is not.
I would also like to add another observed tendency:
The best-looking male is gay. Now looks are somewhat subjective, but that's the impression I usually get, and with what's known of DAI most of all. Straight male LI candidates tend to be a bit rougher, or...as has already been observed, "manlier". As if a straight woman wouldn't appreciate a man who looks good. Perhaps there's a little too much of a male writer's wished-for self-image in the stories?
The only gay guys ever have been Steve and Dorian. Both are attractive, but neither are that much more attractive than the other guys in their games. Kaidan is pretty damned handsome (his face model is an actual model, after all) and Cullen and Varric are also very good looking guys.
This doesn't even seem to be accurate, let alone a "trope".
I would also like to add another observed tendency:
The best-looking male is gay. Now looks are somewhat subjective, but that's the impression I usually get, and with what's known of DAI most of all. Straight male LI candidates tend to be a bit rougher, or...as has already been observed, "manlier". As if a straight woman wouldn't appreciate a man who looks good. Perhaps there's a little too much of a male writer's wished-for self-image in the stories?
Not sure if it's really enough to be a trope but the straight Li's in DA seem to be able to be in more of a committed state than the bi Li's.
Alistair can marry the female Warden and we know that in that situation at least they stay together through to DA2. Also if you are in a relationship with Alistair and he is king even if you aren't queen) it is shown that him and the pc are still together.
Morrigan and the male Warden can reunite in the Witch Hunt DLC. DA:I could rectify this as she seems to be Wardenless but the Warden have vanished regardless of romance so idk, it depends on how it plays out.
Sebastian can marry female Hawke and we know from DLC that this actually did happen, I know it's still just a chaste marriage but it is a commitment.
Zevran is Wardenless in DA2 although he was meant to be still with the Warden if not for that bug, they do seem to be apart anyway.
Leliana is Wardenless in DA2 and DA:I
Both can still be in love with the PC but neither seem to be with the PC.
All the DA2 romances can end in commitment but we don't know if it sticks, the only one that stands above the others is Sebastian's because of the Marriage thing.
So it's a theme but I am not sure if we know enough to call it a trope. DA:I could change it I guess.
Guest_Act of Velour_*
How about the trope of every LI being left/abandoned by the protagonist, and, not just lesbian romances, ending in tragedy?
I mean jeez, every LI we've had from Shepard to Hawke is always mysteriously "abandoned" or "the main character goes missing". Can Inquisition have a potential happy ending, please? One that shows our happy life with our happy LI without our character running off into some random void and never appearing again?
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