579 réponses à ce sujet

[Kalamah]

It's really impossible to define "good looking" and have it be accurate for everyone, let alone even a small group of people. There are conventional standards of attractiveness influenced by society and culture that "most" people in said culture tend to agree with, but even then people's preferences are by no means even close to universal. While I'm not at all shy about proclaiming my preferences to be unconventional, given that I favor femme men and show little to no interest in masculine men, even I have exceptions to my own rules (#RideTheBull!).

 

I think the main sticking point with Dorian is that by "looks alone" he was pegged as gay, and it turned out to be true. There are a lot of intersecting issues with this particular tendency, and I'm kind of on the fence about it. What it boils down to really is the fact that to accept a "stereotypical" character we also need to have characters that counter it, and this then runs into the issue that we can only have so many companions in one game, and not all will be LIs or even have a shown sexual preference. So we have to look at the entire picture spanning all DA-related canon to get a better sense of things. Which brings me to point out that Julien and Nicolas from The Calling were both manly warriors and (implied to be) gay. One or both could have been bisexual, but the point is more that they were romantic partners (and died).

[mikeymoonshine]

How about the trope of every LI being left/abandoned by the protagonist, and, not just lesbian romances, ending in tragedy?

 

I mean jeez, every LI we've had from Shepard to Hawke is always mysteriously "abandoned" or "the main character goes missing". Can Inquisition have a potential happy ending, please? One that shows our happy life with our happy LI without our character running off into some random void and never appearing again?

 

I have always thought that they should just retire at least some of the characters into obscurity as well as some of the LI's. That can't work for every character (like a warden king/queen) but for others it seems fine. There is no reason why Hawke needs to get mixed up in DA:I for example, he/she never struck me as the save the world type anyway. He/she just wanted to give himself/herself and his/her family a good life but ended up getting dragged into conflict after conflict.

 

Ofc I am not a writer and i don't claim to know better than they do about who their characters are and what they would do but it is how Hawke seemed to me regardless of how he/she could be played it was never really an obvious hero character. 

[schall_und_rauch]

I'll quote myself from a different thread:

 

 

 

So there. The "noble do-gooders" as Maria Caliban described them in that thread, are always straight.

My theory:

Three out of the four people (namely Alistair, Sebastian and Cullen) are typical "followers". They don't have a high leadership personality, like to look up to other leaders, believe in what was spoon feed to them and offer little critical thought about what society has taught them. They behave in the fashion "this is what I was told to do, so I will do so" and it takes a lot of effort for them to break out of that thought (contrast that with characters like Morrigan, Isabella or Varric).

If we assume that marrying and having kids is still the norm for humans in Thedas, my explanation is "they were brought up to believe that being straight is the normal thing to be, so they agreed to that role".

 

Aveline is a different type. Why is she heterosexual? Damned if I know, maybe she just ticks that way.

[RevilFox]

I think that with Anders, Isabella and Zevran, there might have been a bit of "bisexuals don't take commitment seriously". With Zevran and Isabella it was their general attitude towards relationships, and with Anders it was him mostly having had physical relationships in the circle. Since these are characters that have more focus on their sexuality, it makes it look quite stereotypical. 

 

I don't agree with this at all. Both Zevran and Isabella take the relationship VERY seriously once you get past their commitment issues, unless I'm completely mis-remembering things.

[JadePrince]

The lesbian stereotype in the mass media is being butch. By having lesbian characters as more feminine, while they could be argued to be steering towards the typical heterosexual male view of attractiveness, it is also going against the general portrayal of lesbian characters.

 

There is a reason for why some people think that Cassandra "looks" like a Lesbian. It is because she is the kind of character that normally would be one, based upon the stereotype. Lesbians are very rarely portrayed as "girly girls", at least in Western media.

 

The only exception tends to be whenever the characters exist purely for the sake of having "hot lesbians" in the piece of media.

 

There is also the fact that just because they appear to fit the typical heterosexual males view of attractiveness, does not mean that they do not also appeal to the typical Lesbian view of it. Or to perhaps put it another way, just because heterosexual guys might like it, doesn't mean it was made with them in mind.

 

 

It is completely subjective, I agree.

 

Personally I do not find any of the LI's to be particularly attractive physically. That is not a criticism, they just don't really fit in with my personal tastes from what I have seen so far.

 

Well... I'm not sure what western media you've been consuming, but almost every example I can think of is femme lesbians/bi girls, not butch. (But seriously, tell me what you've been watching cuz I want to see some butch queer girls)

 

Off the top of my head:

Britney/Santana - Glee

Willow/Tara - Buffy

Basically all the women in the L Word

Piper/Alex/a bunch of others - Orange is the New Black

 

Actually here's a great link that shows a bunch of the queer women on TV all in one handy grid. Notice how they almost universally could be catagorized as 'femme'? 

 

I'd say while the cultural stereotype of a lesbian is the plaid-wearing, short-haired, stocky, masculine woman, that's actually a trope RARELY seen in western media these days (unless someone is making fun of lesbians).

 

Frankly, I wouldn't even call Cassandra all that butch, but compared to the rest of the women Bioware has given us in the DA series, she's definitely the one that tows the line closest to androgyny.

 

EDIT: To stay on topic, this is just to emphasize that Bioware sticking to the 'femme' for f/f romance options is upholding the trope of lesbians being easiest for the mainstream to consume if they are firmly feminine, and not leaning over into 'androgynous' or 'masculine' categorizations. If there's worry that a 'butch' lesbian is too much of a stereotype, I think that can be avoided by her existing in a world/game where there are also 'butch' bisexual women and straight women too. 

[RevilFox]

Well... I'm not sure what western media you've been consuming, but almost every example I can think of is femme lesbians/bi girls, not butch. (But seriously, tell me what you've been watching cuz I want to see some butch queer girls)

 

Off the top of my head:

Britney/Santana - Glee

Willow/Tara - Buffy

Basically all the women in the L Word

Piper/Alex/a bunch of others - Orange is the New Black

 

Actually here's a great link that shows a bunch of the queer women on TV all in one handy grid. Notice how they almost universally could be catagorized as 'femme'? 

 

I'd say while the cultural stereotype of a lesbian is the plaid-wearing, short-haired, stocky, masculine woman, that's actually a trope RARELY seen in western media these days (unless someone is making fun of lesbians).

 

Frankly, I wouldn't even call Cassandra all that butch, but compared to the rest of the women Bioware has given us in the DA series, she's definitely the one that tows the line closest to androgyny.

 

EDIT: To stay on topic, this is just to emphasize that Bioware sticking to the 'femme' for f/f romance options is upholding the trope of lesbians being easiest for the mainstream to consume if they are firmly feminine, and not leaning over into 'androgynous' or 'masculine' categorizations. If there's worry that a 'butch' lesbian is too much of a stereotype, I think that can be avoided by her existing in a world/game where there are also 'butch' bisexual women and straight women too. 

 

As to Orange is the New Black, Boo is clearly more Butch, and I'd argue that Nicky is, if not Butch, than really close. She's certainly not a lipstick lesbian. Maybe a chapstick lesbian, but I think she'd even be on the extreme end of that.

 

For the most part I agree with everything you're saying. As I said previously, despite BioWare having never had a 'Butch' lesbian character, I think the general reaction to doing so would be, "Well of COURSE she's the lesbian. I mean...LOOK at her!"

 

For anyone looking for a good idea of where and how the "Butch" lesbian is portrayed: http://tvtropes.org/...in/ButchLesbian

[Artemis Leonhart]

Just because the general reaction to a butch lesbian would be "Of course she's lesbian", doesn't mean they shouldn't be featured in media.
Butch lesbians (and bisexuals) exist. They are real people, with actual feelings, hopes and dreams just like everyone else. Just because they are somewhat seen as a "walking stereotype" by the society, doesn't mean that they actually are walking stereotypes. They are people. And they deserve to be positively represented like everyone else.
Bioware is in the position of doing so, if not in Inquisition, in a future game. That's my hope, at least.

Just my two cents.

[Lanavis]

Something else that bothers me the PC almost always is the one giving the LI the support and talking about the LI's problems. When the PC's own issues are brought up it's merely to prop up the LI's issues even more in comparison and looks less like the LI is taking an interest in your life and more that they're having a comparison contest. It also really doesn't help that it's usually like 2 lines and they pretty much go back to their problems. (even when said problems aren't as major).

 

This was particularly painful during the whole "My whole family died recently" conversation in origins. Can I get an LI that actually cares about my PCs trauma and doesn't try to end the conversation as quickly as possible after it's brought up? Meanwhile droning on and on about theirs?

 

I mean...WYNNE asked my PC more about her feelings about her past more than Alistair did. That's ridiculous.

 

Edit:

 

Oops uh...I guess this could be both a improvement wish and something I tend to see that bothers me? The relationship is very unbalanced to me in the DA settings most of the time. The PC feels like a therapist.

 

I do agree. The trope for this is called "Living Emotional Crutch" and while I enjoy being their for my Lis, I would also like them to be here for my PC and not just for one convo immediately after the sad event in question (e.g. the death of Hawke's mom). I'm not asking for the Lis to drone on and on about my problems, but maybe to just mention it later or in party banter once or twice after an event in question.

[Lanavis]

So far, Dorian seems to be portrayed as flamboyant, and many people already depicted him as a fashionista fixing Cullen's hair, also a gay best friend for Vivienne. For the first gay companion, I would rather have a more heteronormative guy like Alistair or Kaidan. People seem to tie Dorian's orientation with his teacher. If he were a girl instead, no one would suggest that there must have been something happen between Dorian and his teacher. It's like being gay must have been caused by some sexual abuse. I find it interesting that all the royal and religious people are leaning toward straight. The ranks that people consider or look up to as "moral" are often taking very hetereonormative role. Lelianna is the only exception, but then she's a bard and a spy.

 

 

I disagree greatly with this. Dorian doesn't seem flamboyant at all from what was revealed so far. How fans depict or describe him is irrelevant to Bioware's depiction of him.  Also, did you forget Morrigan? She was as straight as they come and she certainly wasn't religious or ~moral.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I think the problem with avoiding stereotypes with gay people is that you end up disenfranchising a lot of people that do exist. There's nothing wrong with being a a more masculine lesbian or more feminine gay male. The media problem was that this was all that was portrayed for some time, but that's not really the case any more. It's definitely not the case in Bioware games. When people that do fit those descriptions are left with no representation, it sends the message that what they are is bad and that they should try to be the "ideal". I've known real gay men that actively discriminated against more feminine gay men because they said they were "giving gays a bad name". Eliminating this sort of representation just reinforces the idea that people that act that way are wrong and unappealing. It sends the message that you need to assimilate with the heteronormative and that acting outside of gender roles isn't normal. 

[RevilFox]

Just because the general reaction to a butch lesbian would be "Of course she's lesbian", doesn't mean they shouldn't be featured in media.
Butch lesbians (and bisexuals) exist. They are real people, with actual feelings, hopes and dreams just like everyone else. Just because they are somewhat seen as a "walking stereotype" by the society, doesn't mean that they actually are walking stereotypes. They are people. And they deserve to be positively represented like everyone else.
Bioware is in the position of doing so, if not in Inquisition, in a future game. That's my hope, at least.

Just my two cents.

 

To be clear, I am not saying having a butch lesbian F/F option is wrong or that they shouldn't do it. I'm just pointing out that the response to the reveal of Jack was, "Of COURSE she's the F/F option" when she wasn't a F/F option at all. The reaction will likely be exactly the same if they DO make a butch F/F option, only greater because there will be no Males Only "defense". 

[In Exile]

Just because the general reaction to a butch lesbian would be "Of course she's lesbian", doesn't mean they shouldn't be featured in media.
Butch lesbians (and bisexuals) exist. They are real people, with actual feelings, hopes and dreams just like everyone else. Just because they are somewhat seen as a "walking stereotype" by the society, doesn't mean that they actually are walking stereotypes. They are people. And they deserve to be positively represented like everyone else.
Bioware is in the position of doing so, if not in Inquisition, in a future game. That's my hope, at least.

Just my two cents.

 

I agree with you entirely. I'd say we need to make sure we have a spectrum of LGBT characters - including butch women to femme men - as possible LI options. Both because these people, you know, actually exist IRL and they should have more visibility in game than the option to make a PC to look like them and because there are people who like these type of characters as romance options. 

[Artemis Leonhart]

To be clear, I am not saying having a butch lesbian F/F option is wrong or that they shouldn't do it. I'm just pointing out that the response to the reveal of Jack was, "Of COURSE she's the F/F option" when she wasn't a F/F option at all. The reaction will likely be exactly the same if they DO make a butch F/F option, only greater because there will be no Males Only "defense". 

Who cares if some uneducated people go all "hurr durr of course the butch is lesbian"? Butch lesbians and bisexuals exists, if some people can't deal with it, it's their problem.

[Feybrad]

I'm surprised the following didn't come up yet.

 

All female LIs (and even Flings not qualifying as full Romances) we had to this Point looked white, both in Dragon Age and Mass Effect.

 

ME1:

Ashley was white - they can say what they want about her having somewhat non-white Roots, she looked like a typical white Woman.

Liara was ... blue, I admit that, but she had typical White facial Features.

Miranda, nuff said.

Jack, nuff said.

Tali was ... purple-ish with a Helmet on, but she also seemed typically white featured.

Samantha was somewhat tanned, but had white facial Features.

Kelly Chambers, nuff said.

Diana Allers, nuff said.

Samara was blueish, and had less white facial Features, but I can't really lock her down.

 

DA:

Morrigan, nuff said.

Leliana, nuff said.

Every one off Fling in DA:O was white, both Whores and Flings like Iona or the dwarven Noble Hunters.

Merrill (as much as I love her), nuff said.

Isabela might have been intended as non-white, but she ended up tanned white white-ish facial Features. Should I award Points for trying?

The DA2 Whores were also white.

 

Now, let's look at DA:I:

 

Sera, nuff said.

Cassandra, nuff said.

Josephine: I'm conflicted about her because the few Pictures we had of her all had vastly different Lighting. But she seems to have less white Features than those before. But it is not differing that much.

 

Vivienne is literally the first really black Female (with the fitting facial Features!) we have ever seen in a BioWare Game. And yes, I am one of the Persons who would think "that's somewhat suspicious/strange/yougettheidea" if she wasn't a Love Interest.

 

Before I get blasted, let it be known that I'm one of these typically white, straight male People, that aren't expected to complain about things.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Vivienne is literally the first really black Female (with the fitting facial Features!) we have ever seen in a BioWare Game.

 

That's not completely true - there was Dynaheir way back in the first Baldur's Gate game, and Raina Temple in SWTOR. (Raina is even a romance option.)

 

While I think Dragon Age games and BioWare games in general could use LOT more people of colour, it makes me pretty uncomfortable when people say that the ones that are already there don't count because they aren't 'black enough'. Samantha Traynor is a woman of Indian descent. Isabela and Josephine are both people of colour according to the people who wrote and designed them, as are Duncan and Dorian. Claiming that all these people are 'really' white because they don't fit some ideal of blackness seems messed up to me. You don't have to be African (or the nearest Thedas equivalent) to be a person of colour.

[daveliam]

[...] my theory:my explanation is "they were brought up to believe that being straight is the normal thing to be, so they agreed to that role".[...]

 

So are you saying that they might or not be actually straight, but regardless of their actual sexuality, they feel the need to act out a "heterosexual relationship", because that's what expected?

 

Or are you saying, "Well they are people pleasers and brought up in traditional environments, so they 'became' straight because they are followers....."?

 

Because the first one?  Implausible, but not impossible.  The second one?  Not really how sexuality works.

[Kallimachus]

Actually, IIRC Traynor was Indian, and had features that were Indian as well. (I mean India in Asia).

[daveliam]

That's not completely true - there was Dynaheir way back in the first Baldur's Gate game, and Raina Temple in SWTOR. (Raina is even a romance option.)

 

While I think Dragon Age games and BioWare games in general could use LOT more people of colour, it makes me pretty uncomfortable when people say that the ones that are already there don't count because they aren't 'black enough'. Samantha Traynor is a woman of Indian descent. Isabela and Josephine are both people of colour according to the people who wrote and designed them, as are Duncan and Dorian. Claiming that all these people are 'really' white because they don't fit some ideal of blackness seems messed up to me. You don't have to be African (or the nearest Thedas equivalent) to be a person of colour.

 

There was a period of a few days about a month or two ago, when I felt like I was spamming Dynaheir's profile pic in the forums, because people kept making the claim that Vivienne was the first black woman companion ever.  She even has some similarities to Vivienne.  She's a powerful mage.  She's a bit ostentatious dressing (although nowhere near Viv's head dresses; just alot of dangling bangle jewelry).  She's a bit arrogant.

 

Poor Dynaheir!  She's even in the 'canon' party for the first game and she still gets forgotten.  Never forget!

 

[Feybrad]

Well. Okay. I may have looked over these two (Me excluding this Dynaheir-Person might be forgiveable since I was seven Years old at the Time of that Game).

 

However, as far as Traynor is concerned, she isn't black. She's indian (and, forgive me, in Terms of Looks she could totally be taken for "White with a Tan" for People like me, who don't necessarily read up on every Character). I wasn't talking simply "Person of Colour", was I?

 

I thought about black People (meaning People with african facial Features and dark Skin - God, I hate these Issues with political Correctness of Terms, making things complicated) and the curious Thing that there hasn't been a Female with "black" facial Features in the younger BioWare Games since Vivienne - even Raina Temple didn't have that. Now that may cause ... Issues. If Vivienne was excluded from Romance Options, which is a Possibility until confirmed otherwise, this could send very unfortunate Signals, which is why I mentioned that.

 

Including and Excluding an Ethnicity/Demopraphic is always a risky Thing. If black females were continuing to be mysteriously absent, there might be Complainers - but I do think they would be rather far in between, because People who'd complain about that would've been resigned at this Point. However, they aren't anymore, which is a very good Thing.

But this opens another Minefield regarding Implications, which you can surely understand. And I'm concerned about that because, while I trust BioWare to handle that completely right, this is a Topic which Fans as well as Media are very prone to blowing out of Proportion. And I do not want that to happen, because that would detract from the Things that should really get focused on regarding this Game.

[Andraste_Reborn]

But you didn't say 'none of the female love interests looked black.' You said, and I quote:

 

All female LIs (and even Flings not qualifying as full Romances) we had to this Point looked white, both in Dragon Age and Mass Effect.

 

I want to see a lot more people of colour in Dragon Age games, and other future BioWare games. I want to see more people of African descent specifically (or the Thedas equivilent thereof) because there really haven't been enough of them so far. What I don't want to see is people declaring that characters of colour are white because they somehow aren't sufficiently black, as if those were the only two possibilities.

[Feybrad]

Then I failed at expressing myself. Sorry.

[Ieldra]

How about the trope of every LI being left/abandoned by the protagonist, and, not just lesbian romances, ending in tragedy?

 

I mean jeez, every LI we've had from Shepard to Hawke is always mysteriously "abandoned" or "the main character goes missing". Can Inquisition have a potential happy ending, please? One that shows our happy life with our happy LI without our character running off into some random void and never appearing again?

I don't want to be shown our happy life after the end. The probability that I'll hate what the writer thinks I might like is approaching certainty. I want to be able to imagine my own version. However, yes, that requires that the main character remains alive and somehow present in principle. "Gone off to do some important stuff but expected to return unless something dramatic happens" is Ok, "vanished" is not. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I think Bioware is just in a pinch with how to approach the situation after one game ends. They want to be able to use characters people are attached to again and many people want to see those characters again, but they can't bring old PCs back. That requires them to contrive a reason for them to be apart from each other. It doesn't bother me that much, because I want to see the past characters again and I don't get that attached to the relationship once I'm done playing that PC. 

[Ieldra]

I think Bioware is just in a pinch with how to approach the situation after one game ends. They want to be able to use characters people are attached to again and many people want to see those characters again, but they can't bring old PCs back. That requires them to contrive a reason for them to be apart from each other. It doesn't bother me that much, because I want to see the past characters again and I don't get that attached to the relationship once I'm done playing that PC. 

Being apart....that's fine with me.....if I can interpret it to be temporary, or not. Some of Bioware's solutions to this problem prevent me from even imagining a satisfying future of a romance, somewhere in a place far away where the plot never goes, some time after this story has ended and another can begin. And I maintain that taking ownership of a character is natural to roleplaying, and that if I have played a character for a whole game, I should have some say in what will become of them, even if it's only by filling gaps, and that Bioware has a GM's obligation to leave such gaps for my imagination and not close off all possible interesting futures off by some drastic irreversible event.

 

Unless I was never meant to roleplay. In that case, that's also perfectly ok, but I would need to know in advance because I would play the game differently.